Should I buy the Ibanez M80M or Ormsby Goliath 8?

[Ziltoid]

FWIW, I've got a Goliath 7 and an M80M, they are so far apart in terms of neck feel and profile, the Ormsby is the smallest feeling neck to me out of all the 7s I've owned/tried I'd imagine even with the extra string it wouldn't be as wide as the M80M. The M80M is much wider and flatter feeling. Just depends what you like really, my M80M has 3 pickups instead of 1 so its more versatile but that doesn't change the actual size and weight of the guitar from being monstrous, its a very large and heavy guitar.

Size comparison -

 

[sacguy71]

Mayones?

 

[Un1corn]

Totally disagree that the M80M is the top option for extended range 8. There are many far better options. Maybe not in the same price range, but there are many better options if the OP is patient and willing to save a little more. 29” ish scale is absolutely great for feel. But not necessary for tone really. It’ll be a slightly stringier. But what you do between guitar and speaker is going to be more important. Specifically right after the guitar before the amp. With the right guitar though, it’s not necessary to do anything. It’ll sound good regardless of what you do to the signal. FWIW the M80M can’t hold a candle to the custom stuff out there by Oni, Padalka, or even some of the top tier ESP stuff. I haven’t played an Abasi yet. Likely won’t until there are dealers or used example in the local market at a shop.

I’m not voting as I’ve never played a Goliath. The few examples of Ormsby guitars I’ve gotten my hands on were any better than an Indo Ibanez. A couple were worse. Perry is a good guy though and stands behind his stuff. If you bought one and it wasn’t right, he’d do something about it. That said, the Ormsby will be more versatile based on the experience I have with the others I have played. If you are adamant about the uncompromising Meshuggah sound, you need Lundgrens and a modded Marshall amp with a boost up front. If you want Periphery tone, it’s a boosted 5150. DT, it’s an unboosted Mark Series. Periphery and DT aren’t married to specific electronics. It’s playing style couple with good guitar, and a specific amp that responds in an expected way to said playing style.

My personal path is always: Decide what I like outside what influences me. None of my influences play Onis or Solid State amps. But I do. Then work toward a sound that you feel expresses your unique thing with the gear you’ve chosen. Any choice you make will limit your ability to do things other than what that thing does best. So best to choose what you like based on what works best for you, rather than based on what your influences use. In the end, what sets you apart from your influences is what will make you interesting to listen to.

Not saying that it's in absolutely any way, I have clearly said only in down tuning M80M has a significant adavantage.

I'm assuming OP already has some way of signal chain, becasue it's just meaningless to say how a guitar sounds without amp. The clarity and tightness isn't from extra scale length itself, it's becasue longer scale can hold tension with lighter gauge, thus better clarity. More tension means nothing to "tighter" sound, it just feels tighter.

In heavily down tuned tunings, longer scale length and lighter string gauge is just an adavantage you can't compete. At best, you hardly can get same level of clarity and tightness of .074 with .080 or .085. I've played several Padalka headless models, no matter how nice they are (they are really good), in the absolute meaning of down tuning clarity, it just can't beat 29.4 inch scale and Lundgren.

That being said, you can get a muddy sound with .074 while get a relatively clean sound with .085. Yes, it has big things to do with amps and pedals, but that's not about recommending guitars themselves. As for OP, there's nothing can benefit that much by having 29.4 inch and Lundgren expect for Meshuggah. IF OP really needs to tune to low D# C# or even B a lot, thus "absolutely tune down to hell and have superb clarity", then it's M80M.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Not saying that it's in absolutely any way, I have clearly said only in down tuning M80M has a significant adavantage.

I'm assuming OP already has some way of signal chain, becasue it's just meaningless to say how a guitar sounds without amp. The clarity and tightness isn't from extra scale length itself, it's becasue longer scale can hold tension with lighter gauge, thus better clarity. More tension means nothing to "tighter" sound, it just feels tighter.

In heavily down tuned tunings, longer scale length and lighter string gauge is just an adavantage you can't compete. At best, you hardly can get same level of clarity and tightness of .074 with .080 or .085. I've played several Padalka headless models, no matter how nice they are (they are really good), in the absolute meaning of down tuning clarity, it just can't beat 29.4 inch scale and Lundgren.

That being said, you can get a muddy sound with .074 while get a relatively clean sound with .085. Yes, it has big things to do with amps and pedals, but that's not about recommending guitars themselves. As for OP, there's nothing can benefit that much by having 29.4 inch and Lundgren expect for Meshuggah. IF OP really needs to tune to low D# C# or even B a lot, thus "absolutely tune down to hell and have superb clarity", then it's M80M.

Yes. I’m well aware of all of this. My Oni is just over 29” on the bass side. There are plenty of guitars with shorter scales that can still sound clear tuned down to D or lower. Tightness and clarity have as much to do with technique as they do with equipment. If you have an amp or modeler that has stingy high gain tones, coupled with the right speaker and cab, scale length is only going to do so much. Most of it for feel. I used an 8 in drop E on a triple rec with no boost and I didn’t feel like I needed one. Then again, I’m not into UBER compressed tones either for all of my high gain work. I can get my 8 string to sound fantastic through a Yamaha TH30. If I can make it sound good there, I can make it sound good anywhere. If OP wants Meshuggah tone though, they need to worry less about scale length and more about how they’re boosting the front end, and their right and left hand work. Meshuggah Ian inconsistent with gear up till the second pressing of Nothing. And even then, they only landed on the custom 8 string Ibbies with M8s. Tones have been everything from Rectos, ValveStates, PODs, Software, AxeFX, and finally Fortin. In the studio I think they’re mostly modeling and software though. And they don’t always use the same guitars for that. There’s no single way to get a good sound. Depends on what the OP wants, and then they need to chase that thing and then work out the details based on the choices made. I’m not trying to sound like Meshuggah. But I absolutely can if I want to. I’ve been successful at it on a 27” scale guitar and a 29+” scale. Was one easier than the other? No. Not really. But the guitars made me want to do different things for my own original stuff because they felt different to play. OP needs to decide what they like playing and work around that. Not buy a guitar based on what sounds he wants to make with it to the degree it appears they’re trying to. With the guitars sound different? Yes. Will they sound different enough to make any of the listed tones impossible with it? No.

 

[Un1corn]

Was one easier than the other? No. Not really.

Well, if you are trying to aim for a specific sound, this is drastically different from what I know. I have 2 Overload Rea, one is 27 inch and one is 28.6 inch. I can get perfectly tight with 27 inch, but I have to tinker a lot. Either rework amp settings on heavier gauge, or espeically right hand technique with lighter gauge. But with 28.6 it's just ease, since so much pain are solved simply by longer scale (thus lighter gauge).

But the guitars made me want to do different things for my own original stuff because they felt different to play.

And yes, this is very true. If you have 27 inch, you don't want to play drop low C on that very often. Get back to OP, none of his styles really needs to go that low, even Meshuggah can be done on 27 inch and they do this in studio as well.

Still I wouldn't consider they are "as simple", it's a bit stretch say 27 inch can do the same tightness easily as 29 inch. Everything we talk should have controlled variables, like tone shaping and hand technique, etc. Or it has very little meaning because there are too much thing that can affect the tone.

So as the rule, we are only talking if you want to aim for super low tuning below.

With the same gear, and consistent picking hand, there's no doubt that 29 inch is better handling lower notes. When you changed any variable, you need to consider how hard is that variable to compensate. For example, if someone isn't very good at picking consistently, the extra 1lbs of tension definetly helps a lot and it's not easy to get the same. If someone don't have much amps (or pedals), maybe 29 inch low note is already at the amp's limit and it's not performing 100% well, swtiching to 27 inch will only make it very hard to compensate. If you have good technique and good knowledge, then probably 27 inch vs 29 inch will not make that much difference, but still there's more hassle to deal with, so why not go longer if there's no obvious downside?

I totally get your point. I once searched for low tuned clarity on 27 inch for years and I consider myself a very light gauge user. If you have your established workflow, then it will be a breeze to get good tone everywhere. However from a tone shaping start point, once I switched to longer scale, i get myself to rework on what I did, and suddenly everything clears up and it was much less complex naturally, some steps were even not necassary anymore. You definetly will be easier to get a clear tone if you have longer scale (or lighter gauge actually) from the ground up.

For example, a player who played 6 string and already had his tone, switching to 27 inch 8 string if he wants to play low stuff, he probably needs to lower the gain, cut lows more on booster, or switch cabs. But most of time he even doesn't have a clue where to start since it's too much different, maybe there's just one place that's wrong and the whole chain is a mess. In my experience, the place is usually booster or overdrive pedal, where most pedals' low cut aren't sufficient for 8 string. But with longer scale and light gauge, that can pick as good as on 6 string, probably it's just enough, then you will have a clue quickly on gain/drive/eq or sth.

Back to OP, no doubt it's Goliath because as I said, nothing really benefit from 29.4 inch scale unless he really want's to go low as C or B. I'm not saying it's a must, but it gains a huge advantage that other guitars need to work a lot to compensate.

 

[SalsaWood]

Mayones?

As long as it's not Miracle Whip.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Well, if you are trying to aim for a specific sound, this is drastically different from what I know. I have 2 Overload Rea, one is 27 inch and one is 28.6 inch. I can get perfectly tight with 27 inch, but I have to tinker a lot. Either rework amp settings on heavier gauge, or espeically right hand technique with lighter gauge. But with 28.6 it's just ease, since so much pain are solved simply by longer scale (thus lighter gauge).

And yes, this is very true. If you have 27 inch, you don't want to play drop low C on that very often. Get back to OP, none of his styles really needs to go that low, even Meshuggah can be done on 27 inch and they do this in studio as well.

Still I wouldn't consider they are "as simple", it's a bit stretch say 27 inch can do the same tightness easily as 29 inch. Everything we talk should have controlled variables, like tone shaping and hand technique, etc. Or it has very little meaning because there are too much thing that can affect the tone.

So as the rule, we are only talking if you want to aim for super low tuning below.

With the same gear, and consistent picking hand, there's no doubt that 29 inch is better handling lower notes. When you changed any variable, you need to consider how hard is that variable to compensate. For example, if someone isn't very good at picking consistently, the extra 1lbs of tension definetly helps a lot and it's not easy to get the same. If someone don't have much amps (or pedals), maybe 29 inch low note is already at the amp's limit and it's not performing 100% well, swtiching to 27 inch will only make it very hard to compensate. If you have good technique and good knowledge, then probably 27 inch vs 29 inch will not make that much difference, but still there's more hassle to deal with, so why not go longer if there's no obvious downside?

I totally get your point. I once searched for low tuned clarity on 27 inch for years and I consider myself a very light gauge user. If you have your established workflow, then it will be a breeze to get good tone everywhere. However from a tone shaping start point, once I switched to longer scale, i get myself to rework on what I did, and suddenly everything clears up and it was much less complex naturally, some steps were even not necassary anymore. You definetly will be easier to get a clear tone if you have longer scale (or lighter gauge actually) from the ground up.

For example, a player who played 6 string and already had his tone, switching to 27 inch 8 string if he wants to play low stuff, he probably needs to lower the gain, cut lows more on booster, or switch cabs. But most of time he even doesn't have a clue where to start since it's too much different, maybe there's just one place that's wrong and the whole chain is a mess. In my experience, the place is usually booster or overdrive pedal, where most pedals' low cut aren't sufficient for 8 string. But with longer scale and light gauge, that can pick as good as on 6 string, probably it's just enough, then you will have a clue quickly on gain/drive/eq or sth.

Back to OP, no doubt it's Goliath because as I said, nothing really benefit from 29.4 inch scale unless he really want's to go low as C or B. I'm not saying it's a must, but it gains a huge advantage that other guitars need to work a lot to compensate.

A lot of what you say here is why I would pick sometime with versatility over something like an M80M. The M80M is a one trick pony. It tunes low and the pickup is loud, has a narrower effective aperture, and is positioned for more treble. But there’s only one pickup. It’s a purpose built tool. If that tool fits the purpose you have for it, great. But for most people, we have to compromise here or there. If you want some warm clean tones, that guitar isn’t the one. The Goliath I think is long enough to do lower tunings (D, C, maybe even B). Will it sound warmer dry? Yes. But there are ways of fixing that. That’s my point. Figure out all the things you want to do with the guitar and get the one that addresses all of those needs well enough across the board. Unless tone is only important for one thing and you don’t really care about the rest.

For me, string to string clarity is priority one. The guitar as it is, MUST sound clear dry and under high gain. A big low end or something slightly looser isn’t as big of a deal to me, because I can fix that be removing lows via EQ and playing style. My cab is very precise and my amp is too.

I use various boosts with EQ set to unity to compensate for different guitars. I set my amp for my 6 string in drop D. I have a Dual Boost, RC Boost, and a JHS Clover. RC to heat up the pickups of the 6. Dual Boost for surfy sounding stuff to hit the amp harder with a flat signal. And the Clover to sculpt the lows of my 8 just enough that the low end isn’t overdriving the input stage. I add lows back later. Clover is always on when the 8 is plugged in and not pushing at all. I cover a lot of ground from indie rock, punk, and post rock/post metal, to EDM and Industrial Metal. OP may not need that versatility. They just need to figure out what is most important to them, and buy the guitar that suits that. We can talk Teuffel, Blackmachine, Oni, Ibanez, Ormsby, ESP, Dunable, whatever until we’re all blue in the face. And all of our opinions could be patently wrong for OP’s needs, even trying to do our best to address them. When looking at the choice that has to be made, OP should look at the Ps and Cs of both, weight the Ps and Cs according to needs, then make the best choice. There is no perfect choice. That’s not how I pick gear. I’m an experimenter. I would absolutely take my 8 string to a country gig if I got hired for one. Because to me, part of the art is making the weird thing work.

 

[Un1corn]

A lot of what you say here is why I would pick sometime with versatility over something like an M80M. The M80M is a one trick pony. It tunes low and the pickup is loud, has a narrower effective aperture, and is positioned for more treble. But there’s only one pickup. It’s a purpose built tool. If that tool fits the purpose you have for it, great. But for most people, we have to compromise here or there. If you want some warm clean tones, that guitar isn’t the one. The Goliath I think is long enough to do lower tunings (D, C, maybe even B). Will it sound warmer dry? Yes. But there are ways of fixing that. That’s my point. Figure out all the things you want to do with the guitar and get the one that addresses all of those needs well enough across the board. Unless tone is only important for one thing and you don’t really care about the rest.

For me, string to string clarity is priority one. The guitar as it is, MUST sound clear dry and under high gain. A big low end or something slightly looser isn’t as big of a deal to me, because I can fix that be removing lows via EQ and playing style. My cab is very precise and my amp is too.

I use various boosts with EQ set to unity to compensate for different guitars. I set my amp for my 6 string in drop D. I have a Dual Boost, RC Boost, and a JHS Clover. RC to heat up the pickups of the 6. Dual Boost for surfy sounding stuff to hit the amp harder with a flat signal. And the Clover to sculpt the lows of my 8 just enough that the low end isn’t overdriving the input stage. I add lows back later. Clover is always on when the 8 is plugged in and not pushing at all. I cover a lot of ground from indie rock, punk, and post rock/post metal, to EDM and Industrial Metal. OP may not need that versatility. They just need to figure out what is most important to them, and buy the guitar that suits that. We can talk Teuffel, Blackmachine, Oni, Ibanez, Ormsby, ESP, Dunable, whatever until we’re all blue in the face. And all of our opinions could be patently wrong for OP’s needs, even trying to do our best to address them. When looking at the choice that has to be made, OP should look at the Ps and Cs of both, weight the Ps and Cs according to needs, then make the best choice. There is no perfect choice. That’s not how I pick gear. I’m an experimenter. I would absolutely take my 8 string to a country gig if I got hired for one. Because to me, part of the art is making the weird thing work.

Alright, it makes a point

 

[philkilla]

I've owned an M80M and now own the M8M. Both were fantastic instruments, but I used them primarily for playing meshuggah and other nonsense.

You can do some really wild stuff with the M80, and they sound fantastic right out of the box.

It's really about what your long term intended goal is for the investment.

 

[BigViolin]

I remember when a photo of a H-S-H M80M would have broken this forum.

 

[aWoodenShip]

I remember when a photo of a H-S-H M80M would have broken this forum.

It would still break me. Financially.

 

[teamSKDM]

m80m is the quintesential 8 string tone. ormsby will win in playability and diveristy due to neck pickup

 

[Ziltoid]

To be fair I got mine for about £650, I will say the work isn't exactly the highest quality though but its functional.

It would still break me. Financially.

 

[chargrilled]

The only Ormbsy 8 I tried a few years back had a rounder neck than an Ibanez so it was an instant no for me, just felt too chunky and sluggish. Beautiful looking though and love the harpoon headstock.

Ormsby Pic

If I was going higher end Ibanez 8 I'd look at the Lightning in the Dark one:

Ibanez Pic

 

[Yul Brynner]

Don't bother with either. Just save your money until you can get the real m8m.

 

[Yul Brynner]

FWIW, I've got a Goliath 7 and an M80M, they are so far apart in terms of neck feel and profile, the Ormsby is the smallest feeling neck to me out of all the 7s I've owned/tried I'd imagine even with the extra string it wouldn't be as wide as the M80M. The M80M is much wider and flatter feeling. Just depends what you like really, my M80M has 3 pickups instead of 1 so its more versatile but that doesn't change the actual size and weight of the guitar from being monstrous, its a very large and heavy guitar.

Size comparison -
View attachment 123921

Holy fuck you have to post more pictures of that hsh m80m!

 

[Seabeast2000]

Ftm33

 

[Krauthammer]

The m80m with the long scale is easier to play the higher register, IMO. I have a 27" ibanez 8, and it does get the job done, but the clarity I get from the 29.4" scale makes it the best 8 I have. It has its own tone character, there is nothing like it. And I feel its really light weight. Compared to my RG2228 this thing practically floats in the air.