The official Sabre Guitars Thread

[Hollowway]

Not getting in the middle of all this (no affiliation with Sabre nor do I have a build ordered or own one of his guitars), but from an outside perspective it looks like a lot of people are hopping on the "this luthier is backlogged and ripping people off" bandwagon simply because the guy doesn't provide constant updates on this specific forum.

It seems even more silly considering many customers with complaints about Sabre have either had their problem resolved or haven't even posted an update on the situation themselves.

Everybody runs in to hiccups, guys. Don't attempt to crucify the guy just because he's hit a few.

I mean, really? Accusing him of ripping people off? Saying it's BS that he won't work full-time with a broken jaw? Implying that he's going to keep all the donations? Then calling anyone that tries to calm the situation "a shill"? And all of this simply because he doesn't provide constant updates on your preferred social hub?

That's some real schoolyard bs.

With how petty a lot of you are acting and how hastily some of you are to throw blind accusations with little to no evidence, I'm surprised the guy continues responding here at all.

That's all I had to say. Again, not trying to start a war, just stating my simple observations.

Question for you: how many builds did you have scheduled with BRJ before he went under? Siggery? Brutalizer? Invictus?

The fact is that what is happening here is EXACTLY how these things start. So there can be very little room for "giving the benefit of the doubt." It's just plain business marketing 101 to keep your customers informed. Choosing not to post on here is a business decision, not a hiccup. Scheduling new runs while existing customers wait is a business decision, not a hiccup. Unfortunately, many of us start seeing these signs and think, statistically, this will not end well. It's like if your GF says, "sit down, we need to talk." She may, in fact, be wanting to have a super serious conversation about where to eat dinner. But odds are your ass is about to get dumped. So yeah, this is some school yard BS. But only because these customers are thisclose to getting stuffed in a locker. So if you don't have any way of guaranteeing that anyone getting screwed over here will get their money back, then keep your rosy eyed optimism to your own orders, and let people ask questions.

 

[loqtrall]

And has he not commented on here saying he's cleared a lot of problems up and is continuing to clear up more?

The last time I checked, the last worrying "complaint" on this thread was two months ago, and that guy has not posted an update since his initial complaint. Drapes even stated they've been contacting him.

Other than that, everyone I saw complaining has recieved their guitar. The guy that had problems with his instrument has communicated with Sabre and the issues have seemingly been rectified.

See, I see all this talk of "better file a claim before he rips you off" talk, and this "my delivery was delayed" talk, ect, but you know what I don't see?

I don't see one customer that has been ripped off, not one guitar that shipped with huge or unfixable damage or flaws. Not one customer that's been intentionally left in the dark for the entire build length. Those are thing BRJ, Siggery, etc were guilty of, not just bad communication.

You guys are trying to quasi-crucify this guy simply because his communication is bad, even though guitars are delivered intact, customer issues are fixed, ect. Some of you even put the blame of delays directly on him when it also included a combination of suppliers being delayed as well as run customers that wouldn't complete payment.

Is his communication poor? Definitely. But he doesn't appear to be wanting to rip anyone off and he's posted multiple times stating he is and has been dealing with customer issues. Almost every complaing customer in this thread has either stated thier issue has been resolved or hasn't posted a follow-up, to which Drapes or Sabre claim they've been in contact. People still seem to be recieving their guitars, and there have been very few complaints about the guitars themselves.

And yet people are still trying to drag his name through the mud, even when there hasn't been a legitimate complaint in this thread in months, nor on his FB page.

He may be terrible at communication, but so far I don't see anything indicating he's stooping to the level of BRJ or Siggery, nor does it seem he wants to (he blatantly stated this himself in this thread). If he got his **** together with customer communication, his operation would seem identical to many other reputable single-luthier operations. That's still no reason to act like a 7 year old, drag his name through the mud, make blind accusations, and directly compare him to luthiers that legit ripped off and screwed over SEVERAL customers over the course of years.

 

[Hollowway]

All I can say is, go read the Siggery, Sherman, Invictus, Roter,and BRJ threads. You'll see the exact same thing. A few people getting skittish, and a few people saying, "Look, he's a good guy. He's making up for it. He's a one man shop. He doesn't want to go under. He doesn't want to rip people off." I'm not saying that's the way this is going to go, but I AM saying this is how those things start. We ARE being hypercritical, because we don't know how this is going to end. Neither do you. I was a huge supporter of both Siggery and BRJ, and was shocked when both of those things happened. The reason that I, personally, am in here is because I've had builds with KxK, OAF, BRJ, Halo, Jahn, Doberman, and more, and experience in situations where I get my guitar really fast, and with lots of communication, where I never get it, and everything in between. I wish that there were people who gave me a few warning signs, heads up, tips, etc. when I was first buying customs so I could avoid the pitfalls. But I learned the hard way, and am out thousands of dollars because of it. So my goal here is to keep the pressure on, and make sure that Sabre does what they've said they would. I'll be super pissed if another luthier puts a black mark on the profession, and ruins it for the good guys.

 

[feraledge]

If the luthier continues to say "they're working on it" then someone can always argue that no one has been ripped off. There is more than enough precedent here to consider a request for follow through as an accountability process.
If you look at the Decibel stuff, even as Darren is posting new things it's the press for actual build completion that is forcing real progress, not just random updates. It's taking other luthiers to confirm how underwater he is and, miraculously, they're offering to help with the follow through. I think everyone here wants these companies to turn around and pull off amazing work, but with thousands of dollars on the line, I'm not sure anyone should be upset about this community wanting to keep customers on their toes.
If the company wants to clear their name, actual progress, updates, delivery and time lines will be sufficient as long as the final product hits or surpasses expectations.
As a business, this is considered customer service. No other line of work demands slack like this when follow through is not apparent.

 

[loqtrall]

And warning customers to be aware is fine. But I see a lot less of that and a lot more of skipping straight to the part of essentially calling the guy a piece of crap and having conversations implying he's going to do something dishonorable that are entirely fueled by speculation without evidence. For instance, snarky remarks by people implying he's going to keep donation money to get himself out of the hole. Or several members being entirely dickish and unsempathetic saying he should have continued working through the pain and discomfort of a broken jaw, acting like the guy is 100% luthier and isn't a human being at all.

But on top of that, it's not just him saying "I'm working on things". He as well as customers have stated their issues have been resolved. Again, there hasn't been a (public) complaint on here or FB in months, and those complaints have been dealt with, guitars have been delivered, issues have been fixed. He's posted pics on Facebook recently of guitars with the caption "just shipped out" or "just received", etc.

Like I said, from my outsiders point of view, it seems like he hit some delays, hiccups, and run customers that refused to pay the rest of their balance, as well as a broken jaw to deal with. Everyone hits a rough patch, no matter what your profession is. Again, that's no reason to try to drag his name through the mud and prematurely crucify the guy because you're speculating that he may rip someone off in the future. Because, as of yet, it seems he's dead set on fixing his problems and there hasn't been complaints for months, which is something none of those other failed luthiers exhibited. They said they'd rectify customer issues and never did. At least Sabre is actually fixing most, if not all of his mistakes.

Again, it's no wonder he doesn't post here as frequently as he used to. After all, he did flat out admit that he was intentionally avoiding SSO because of all the blind mudslinging.

 

[MoshJosh]

^^^ I have to agree, the accusations that Sabre is using a charity raffle as a scheme to nab a sweet profit seems completely unwarranted to me. Unless there is information I've missed?

I can see that the communication issues are a concern, and COULD be taken as an early warning sign that Sabre is going down the path other small, failed, luthiers have taken i.e. BRJ and Siggery. I can see the need for caution. But from an outside prospective the comments being made here are beginning to reach beyond cautionary. . .

 

[feraledge]

That instance may be true, but in regards to everything else Sabre makes guitars and this a guitar forum where there have been a lot of custom guitar sales and increasingly (and sadly) towards the helm of staying on top of other new luthiers to make sure they don't go the BRJ, etc route.
From a business perspective, I'm not sure how avoiding the forum is a wise choice. Not like they need to defend every exaggerated claim, but progress pics and completed guitars speak for themselves.

 

[narad]

The reason that I, personally, am in here is because I've had builds with KxK, OAF, BRJ, Halo, Jahn, Doberman, and more, and experience in situations where I get my guitar really fast, and with lots of communication, where I never get it, and everything in between.

Sadly the best way to tell if a luthier's going to run away with the money is if you've got a build with them! I'm still shocked that KxK is a reputable builder, bucking the trend!

Seriously though, it seems like every thread where the luthier eventually flakes out has one thing in common: a couple guys popping in to play moderator and talk about how it sounds like everything's resolved. Look, I know for a fact that as of two weeks ago things are not resolved. Maybe that's changed now, but trying to judge if things are okay by the quietness of a thread is a really bad idea...all it takes is some Vik experience to tell you that...had like 10 guys in here all being dicked over and being super quiet, myself included, for a very long time. NGDs are always the better tell. So please just let people comment what they want, or raise a counterpoint, or provide some evidence of people getting guitars, without simply saying "sshhhh!" over and over again.

At the same time, if you read "Maybe in their best financial advantage to hold a raffle" as "He's going to take all the raffle money!" then you're reading at like a 3rd grade level and need to stop commenting.

 

[loqtrall]

Sadly the best way to tell if a luthier's going to run away with the money is if you've got a build with them! I'm still shocked that KxK is a reputable builder, bucking the trend!

Seriously though, it seems like every thread where the luthier eventually flakes out has one thing in common: a couple guys popping in to play moderator and talk about how it sounds like everything's resolved. Look, I know for a fact that as of two weeks ago things are not resolved. Maybe that's changed now, but trying to judge if things are okay by the quietness of a thread is a really bad idea...all it takes is some Vik experience to tell you that...had like 10 guys in here all being dicked over and being super quiet, myself included, for a very long time. NGDs are always the better tell. So please just let people comment what they want, or raise a counterpoint, or provide some evidence of people getting guitars, without simply saying "sshhhh!" over and over again.

At the same time, if you read "Maybe in their best financial advantage to hold a raffle" as "He's going to take all the raffle money!" then you're reading at like a 3rd grade level and need to stop commenting.

Well complaints from customers are good and are well invited, but that's not what we're seeing.

People ARE getting their guitars. Aside from him posting pics on fb of received and shipped guitars, CUSTOMERS in this thread that had delay and communication issues have stated themselves that they got in contact and recieved their instruments. In some cases, NGDs are not the better tell, as one guy in here has already stated he received his guitar but will not be posting an NGD because he disliked the communication issues he had. If you were looking for an NGD as proof, you wouldn't find it, but the guy said himself that he got the guitar.

There have also been customers that commented on FB pics of their completed guitars thanking him for their instruments. Obviously guitars are being made and shipped. They're not all going to be completed at one time or within a few weeks of each other.

As for the donation money thing, there was more said than just what you quoted, and there were snark comments vaguely insenuating that people believed he might pocket the expenses of the guitar, which were made out of nowhere with absolutely no evidence or reasoning that Chris would do such a thing. Speaking of 3rd graders, that seems like something one would do.

It's your right, post whatever you like. But throwing blind accusations and making unfounded childish comments about a luthier whose biggest issues are with communication holds no ground if the people posting them don't provide reasonable proof as well.

That's all I'll be saying on this subject and no more, before people hop on the "he's a shill" bandwagon and I get an unnecesary ban for trying to prevent the virtual execution of a luthier that seems he's trying hard to fix issues with his customers. The same thing happened when I tried to get people to stop insulting a member in the ViK thread because he simply posted pictures of ViK guitars in the thread while SSO was having a ViK lynching.

 

[narad]

But throwing blind accusations and making unfounded childish comments about a luthier whose biggest issues are with communication holds no ground if the people posting them don't provide reasonable proof as well.

You think that's his biggest issue. I know others (customers) would disagree. But there's not going to be anything more accomplished with us reading a lack of information in different ways, so we'll just have to see how this pans out.

But I'm not making this stuff up out of thin air - I would have wanted a Sabre too until I spoke to actual customers. And that's only a step I really went out of my way to do because of getting burned by 3 builders over the past 5 years to varying degrees. It happens. It's not fun. All of them constantly reassuring you that progress is made, updates are coming, refunds are coming, etc. - I think you'd probably have a different perspective after you are in that situation and realize how legally powerless you actually are with small builders.

 

[feraledge]

In some cases, NGDs are not the better tell, as one guy in here has already stated he received his guitar but will not be posting an NGD because he disliked the communication issues he had. If you were looking for an NGD as proof, you wouldn't find it, but the guy said himself that he got the guitar.

There have also been customers that commented on FB pics of their completed guitars thanking him for their instruments. Obviously guitars are being made and shipped. They're not all going to be completed at one time or within a few weeks of each other.

Sabre has an account here, why not just post the pics themselves?
The part that I put in bold and italicized is the part I absolutely wouldn't take for granted without seeing pics. I can't be the only one who doesn't use facebook. Again, I think if you make guitars and we're on a forum where your reputation may be on the line and future clients are lurking, if you can shut down naysayers and get customers through sharing completed guitars, then that may be enough in and of itself.
Paying for a vendor account can't possibly be the most expensive advertising.

 

[feraledge]

Aside from him posting pics on fb of received and shipped guitars

It might just be that I don't have a real FB account, but looking at the Sabre page, the last completed guitar that I'm seeing aside from the raffle guitars are from early August. Am I not seeing them all? Very possible. Or it could be that the progress and completion claim is exaggerated greatly.

 

[loqtrall]

It might just be that I don't have a real FB account, but looking at the Sabre page, the last completed guitar that I'm seeing aside from the raffle guitars are from early August. Am I not seeing them all? Very possible. Or it could be that the progress and completion claim is exaggerated greatly.

Then I'm assuming you completely ignored pics of guitars currently being built that were posted on October 7th, three guitars on September 30th, and 3 different guitars in late august?

I literally just looked.

EDIT: But yeah, I'm just gonna stop now. Going against the views of the more volatile members/mods in these kinds of threads/situations never ends well for anybody. I'll just end it with saying that, just as you guys are saying I might not be seeing the whole picture, it's evident that others that are discussing this topic aren't seeing the whole picture either, considering there have been progress pictures posted on outlets OTHER than SSO and people here seemingly have no idea they existed, or the fact that there are people questioning whether or not anybody is receiving their guitars when several people in this thread that had issues with delays and communication have said themselves that they have, in fact, received their completed instruments. As Drapes stated below, SSO isn't the only outlet that Sabre is taking advantage of for advertisement purposes, and I highly doubt it's the primary way they're keeping in touch with their customers that just so happen to be members here (just like I highly doubt Dylan from Daemoness contacts his customers here, even though a lot of his customers are members here and HE, himself, is a member here). It makes sense that he wants to avoid SSO considering all the mudslinging people are pulling here without providing any evidence or reasoning for doing so. I mean, after the snarky comments about the donation money, I'd just abandon SSO altogether if I were him. That was a pretty low blow and was more a petty insult disguised as criticism than actual criticism.

Like narad said, I guess we'll just see how this pans out. Peace.

 

[Drapes]

It might just be that I don't have a real FB account, but looking at the Sabre page, the last completed guitar that I'm seeing aside from the raffle guitars are from early August. Am I not seeing them all? Very possible. Or it could be that the progress and completion claim is exaggerated greatly.

Again this shows exactly how little people Know about building and completing in batches. It takes generally 11-12+ months to build a guitar and these are done in batches. One CNC machine = scheduling. It is difficult and time consuming to build a guitar body then a neck. They are build it in batches depending on where they are on the build list. A number of companies do this. Simply because it makes sense. There have been a large number of guitars completed from his previous post where Chris said he doesn't want to post in here anymore. I believe at the end of the month (possibly) There are a number of guitars that will be completed in the current batch near final assembly/testing. There are a number in progress which can be seen on his FB or IG accounts.

A very small proportion of guitars have had issues but are being sorted as we speak and very near to being ready to be sent back to the customer(s).

I don't understand this Vendor Account malarky? How will this benefit Sabre? This forum hasn't exactly been a friendly place for him to advertise? Facebook/IG/Twitter is free to advertise and is where a majority of customers come from or from the Guitar shows he attends in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

He has been open in regards to communication but does try to keep people informed of build progress. I have seen the evidence of this and I have informed a number and helped a number of people get updates. Such as the guy above who had a stock series in customs that was waiting for him to clear and Shayne who did have a QC issue but is being sorted at the workshop right now. QC issues do happen and as long as they aren't a complete disaster and can be sorted unlike the the cr*p that invictus and siggery put out. Siggery for example have a guitar at Sabre - a headless guitar with strandberg hardware that is a complete mess that Christian is helping to sort out (Frets in the wrong place, neck the wrong scale length etc).

Chris has tried to get a new phone/broadband line installed but anyone in the UK knows how long this can take. One of the main issues for communication has been the terrible signal they currently have at the workshop. I believe that this line will be installed soon with a telephone line/number for the workshop. This has taken a while to come about because it all depends on BT's schedule, I will try to update when this is done. Hopefully this will help with communication.

 

[feraledge]

Then I'm assuming you completely ignored pics of guitars currently being built that were posted on October 7th, three guitars on September 30th, and 3 different guitars in late august?

I literally just looked.

Or maybe it is exactly what I said:

It might just be that I don't have a real FB account, but looking at the Sabre page, the last completed guitar that I'm seeing aside from the raffle guitars are from early August. Am I not seeing them all? Very possible.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

No one is forcing builders to post here. If Sabre and thier associates choose not to post here or feel they don't "benefit", so be it.

Bye, Felicia.