Theory questions too small for their own thread

[Hollowway]

Today I stumbled across a YT video where the guy takes one song, and plays it in each of the 7 modes.

My question is: for the original (minor) key, the progression is F#m7, A, Esus4, B7sus4, or i III vii iv. Then he converts it into major. So he’s switching to F# major here and the progression is now B, B, G#m, F#. But that’s a completely different progression, as it’s now IV IV ii I.

So when people do these key/mode shifts, how are they doing it? Keeping the same basic melody, and then finding chords that lay over it in a not too rare progression? I feel like the actual progression would have an impact on the “feel” of the song, too. In other words, is there an accepted way I don’t know about to change a song from minor to major?

Here’s the video:

 

[c7spheres]

hopefully not to confuse it more;
If you take F# minor and convert it to major (1) the 4 is now B, and it's also B from a parallel minor mode, or alternately, the minor of A major is F# from a parallel persepective. From a relative perspective if F# = the 6th (natural minor) then also A is the 1 (major). All I think he's doing is how he explains it around 1:55. It's in A major based on the key signature. Going back to the first example it's like transposing between F#minor and A major. It's just terminology really. Notice when he goes to lydian it's A major with a raised 4th.

hopefully easier;
- He's just forcing the notes to be what the mode is, so if it's in a parallel minor key (1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7), (where 1 is the root rather than aeolian mode which is relative where 6 is the root (6-71-2-34-5-6)), and you want it converted to harmonic minor (1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7) for example then just leave whatever's the same in the orignal and new key and force the differnt notes to match the new key intervallically so in this case you'd leave everything the same and just raise all the b7's to become natural 7's. Then it'd be in the same key but parallel harmonic minor. If you want to make that into another key just shift the 1 to a new spot. I didn't watch everything he's doing but he seems to also add supporting chords too. But to me it seems to be transposition/substitutions type mindset.

 

[Drew]

My question is: for the original (minor) key, the progression is F#m7, A, Esus4, B7sus4, or i III vii iv. Then he converts it into major. So he’s switching to F# major here and the progression is now B, B, G#m, F#. But that’s a completely different progression, as it’s now IV IV ii I.

So when people do these key/mode shifts, how are they doing it? Keeping the same basic melody, and then finding chords that lay over it in a not too rare progression? I feel like the actual progression would have an impact on the “feel” of the song, too. In other words, is there an accepted way I don’t know about to change a song from minor to major?

The not-helpful answer is, the accepted way is whatever sounds good.

But, not only is that not useful, it sort of downplays how much theory can be a great toolkit here by suggesting it's just follow your ear. Like, it is, and it isn't.

As a general guiding principal, the "trick" to changing keys is to find a chord that will resolve to the key you want to go to. Without knowing this song or really hearing it, and without having a guitar around to sit down and work out the exact harmonic movement, my guess is this works because the F# major (and, is it by chance a F#7, rather than just a straight major?) is the V chord of B major, so by playing the F#7 you create a really strong harmonic "pull" to the B major, which is serving as a temporary tonic note here.

But, while this isn't the only way to do it, a V7-I (or V7-i) resolution is really, really, really strong, about as strong as you're going to find in music, so if you want to change keys, finding a way to get to the V7 of the key you want to get to is a good way to do it.

I'm trying to get a little more harmonically adventerous on the album I'm working on right now and trying to make every song have at least SOME sort of non-diatonic chord change or a modulation into a different key at some point in it, and one of the ways I've been doing this is trying to think about in reverse, trying to think how I can get BACK to my original key, after a modulation to something else, and then backing into it that way. It's kind of fun.

 

[gnoll]

is there an accepted way I don’t know about to change a song from minor to major?

No.

Here's how I think about it:

The harmony (the chords) plays a very large part in if something sounds like it's in a particular mode. And David makes it clear in the video also that he's using the harmony as a tool to imply a mode, like adding a drone for lydian.

And like, if you didn't do that, what would you do? The melody is pentatonic and there's a bunch of sus chords and stuff. If you want to heavily imply a mode, you have to get that modal flavor from somewhere.

I agree with you that the harmony is a big part of the actual song, but he probably thought something like "I'll use the vocal line as the "song identifier" and completely re-harmonize since I know I need to do somewhat wild stuff to the harmony anyway to imply modality".

And I think that's fair even if he could maybe have caught more of the "song DNA" if he had tried to represent more of the original harmonic movement.

But it's a very interesting question I think. It makes you think about stuff like, what is a song really? What makes a song that certain song? And what's modal music? How much modal flavor is enough to say music is in a particular mode?

There aren't really objectively correct answers to these questions. It's got a lot to do with how we hear things.

 

[Winspear]

"Reharmonisation" is the term to look into here - Extremely common in Jazz to just take the 'head' (the melody) and do whatever under it. Anything works to an extent - the approach is a case of sectioning off fragments of the melody and seeing what chord they imply.
We have a spectrum from basic triads of which the strongest melody notes are core pitches of (this end of the spectrum will usually sound most 'normal' and perhaps would be the original version if reharmonising a pop song for example), all the way to putting completely 'unrelated' chords underneath where the melody would become obscure upperextensions of the chords - that end of the spectrum would be the most 'outside' sounding jazzy stuff.
We can use all our typical cues in construction of the progression underneath in terms of tonality implication, matching chord/tension resolution to the melody for unity, using smooth voice leading and/or common tricks like secondary dominants to make unusual chord relationships land well, etc. Reharmonisation will also play with the 'harmonic rhythm' and experiment with the fragmentation size of the melody analysis to decide how often to change chords

 

[ThePIGI King]

Small question, kind of... where does one with ZERO theory knowledge start?

I'm not a new player, I'm an almost alright player. Every book I've looked to buy talks about theory assuming I know nothing about playing guitar. I just know nothing of theory lol

 

[gnoll]

Start anywhere you want.

 

[tedtan]

Small question, kind of... where does one with ZERO theory knowledge start?

I'm not a new player, I'm an almost alright player. Every book I've looked to buy talks about theory assuming I know nothing about playing guitar. I just know nothing of theory lol

What do you want to learn?

Also, do you have any understanding of scales, chords, etc.?

 

[ThePIGI King]

What do you want to learn?

Also, do you have any understanding of scales, chords, etc.?

Man, I've typed this probably four different ways trying to make it make sense lol

I want to understand why things work. I listen to a lot of Tech Death and when I watch videos with the guitarists, they often mention what they're doing/thinking. This includes scales, chord progressions, altering scales/chords (minor 7th instead of whatever it's supposed to be) and whatnot.

To answer your second (and kind of first) question, I do not know any scales. I don't have any memorized. But if you tell me the notes needed to play them, I can find them/play it. I have a coupe chord shapes memorized, but only in one position. So no, I don't know scales or chords. I've always played by sound. If it sounded good, it was good lol

I'm interested in why the muscians choose the notes they choose. Because I generally stumble upon things. I have a book called The Guitar Grimoire, and so if I want to play a certain scale I can, but that's not me knowing anything.

If none of that makes sense, let me know and I'll try again lol

 

[USMarine75]

Today I stumbled across a YT video where the guy takes one song, and plays it in each of the 7 modes.

My question is: for the original (minor) key, the progression is F#m7, A, Esus4, B7sus4, or i III vii iv. Then he converts it into major. So he’s switching to F# major here and the progression is now B, B, G#m, F#. But that’s a completely different progression, as it’s now IV IV ii I.

So when people do these key/mode shifts, how are they doing it? Keeping the same basic melody, and then finding chords that lay over it in a not too rare progression? I feel like the actual progression would have an impact on the “feel” of the song, too. In other words, is there an accepted way I don’t know about to change a song from minor to major?

Here’s the video:

I thought it was going to be an Adam Nealy or Nahre Sol video.

 

[jaxadam]

Small question, kind of... where does one with ZERO theory knowledge start?

Modes.

 

[ThePIGI King]

Modes.

I'll take Easy Mode please - tried to play on Legendary and got ragdolled by a couple Elites and those darned suicide grunts.

But I will take a look into it. I appreciate everyone's advice thus far.

 

[gnoll]

I want to understand why things work.

Things work because they sound good.

Music theory doesn't tell you what notes to use. It gives names to things so that it's easier to talk about those things and see them in different contexts. It's like a language and a tool that can be very useful for analysis but not in a sense that it explains what "sounds good" or what notes "should be used".

If you're building a house then a hammer can be very useful. But the hammer doesn't tell you how to build the house. It's a tool that you can use in the process, but YOU decide how your house should look, whether you use a hammer or not.

If you want to learn theory there's about a million resources. Websites, videos, books, etc.

If you know nothing then I guess start at the beginning? The names of the notes, intervals, scales, chords, keys? I suppose?

And probably forget about the guitar, I don't really know what the guitar has to do with anything? Some sort of keyboard/piano would probably be more helpful.

 

[gnoll]

Also I think it can be good to learn the basics of sheet music. You don't have to become a master sightreader but it all ties in to how we name and think about notes and intervals and stuff. I think guitar players often shy away from that but I think it's good to understand how the system works.

I would probably try to find a good resource that starts from the beginning and just follow along.

And be curious. Curiosity is the best teacher.

 

[Winspear]

Modes.

I...wouldn't usually interject just to disagree but honestly I can't think of a worse place personally They get so strangely understood and weirdly contextualised (especially when it comes to guitar and thinking of them as just fretboard shapes) even by people with other knowledge. They are fundamentally reliant on other knowledge to understand.

I'd start with intervals, major and minor scale, and basic triad construction. With emphasis on intervals every step of the way !

 

[jaxadam]

I...wouldn't usually interject just to disagree but honestly I can't think of a worse place personally They get so strangely understood and weirdly contextualised (especially when it comes to guitar and thinking of them as just fretboard shapes) even by people with other knowledge. They are fundamentally reliant on other knowledge to understand.

I'd start with intervals, major and minor scale, and basic triad construction. With emphasis on intervals every step of the way !

All good brother. Moses just really clicked and made sense to me. I am actually not a big theory guy anyway, but thought they were a good launching pad.

 

[USMarine75]

Today I stumbled across a YT video where the guy takes one song, and plays it in each of the 7 modes.

My question is: for the original (minor) key, the progression is F#m7, A, Esus4, B7sus4, or i III vii iv. Then he converts it into major. So he’s switching to F# major here and the progression is now B, B, G#m, F#. But that’s a completely different progression, as it’s now IV IV ii I.

So when people do these key/mode shifts, how are they doing it? Keeping the same basic melody, and then finding chords that lay over it in a not too rare progression? I feel like the actual progression would have an impact on the “feel” of the song, too. In other words, is there an accepted way I don’t know about to change a song from minor to major?

Here’s the video:

[General info - my apologies if it’s too basic but honestly it’s the key to learning guitar theory IMO.]

Modes are all about the underlying chord progression and the target tones. That’s what makes it sound and feel a certain way. Modes without chords or drones are just scales.

Think of it this way. All 7 modes are the exact same notes. So why does it sound different? Because playing the C major scale from C to C and landing on C sounds major. But play that same scale A to A over an A minor chord and it will sound sad. Same exact notes. (You can also play over the C and it will still work, but ideally your progression should have an Am as the i chord)

It’s honestly all about those intervals and how they interact with the chord they’re played over.

I always say the best place to start is arpeggios. A lot of people start with Pentatonics which are 5 of the 7 notes of a scale. Arpeggios are even less - just the target tones of a scale. So a major arpeggio is just 1-3-5. And a minor is 1-b3-5. So you can’t go wrong! Place an arpeggio over a chord and no matter what note you pick to begin or end on is the right note lol. You learn the fretboard and you learn basic intervals. You learn target tones - the notes that sound best overall to land on, especially during chord changes. (Advanced primer - chord tones are why the greats sound great. They follow the changes. They nail the change either right before, during, or transition with. That’s what gives melody and solos movement.)

Start with mindless shred - up and down arpeggios or pentatonics. Work your way up to common phrases/lines. Try and sing melodies. Change up your note durations and dynamics.

Then you add one more note - 7ths. Major, minor, and dominant. Then once you add a 4th (not a great note to end on but a good passing tone) you have 1-3-4-5-7. Guess what that is? The major pentatonic. Or 1-b3-4-5-7 which is the minor.

You know the basic major (Ionian) and basic minor (aeolian). Getting the other two major modes is done when you add/swap missing notes. A #4 added to a major arpeggio or pentatonic (instead of the 4th) tells the ear its Lydian. Stick with the regular 4 (or skip) but flat your 7th and you get Mixolydian. It’s that flat 7th that tells your ear it’s not regular major scale. You could just play 1-3-5-b7. So you’re only adding one note to your basic major arpeggio.

Minor is the same. Basic arpeggio or pentatonic of 1-b3-(4)-5-(7). The 2 and b6 tell the war it’s definitely Aeolian. A 2 but a 6 tells the ear its Dorian. The 6th here is really the key note. A b2 and a b6 and you’ll hear Phrygian.

Fuck Locrian. Nobody likes that guy.

A trick I picked up from a Marty Friedman and Josh Smith (the other one) is once you’ve gotten this far - stop landing on the 1/3/5 target tones all the time. At first you use the outside notes as blue notes. But now you start to begin and end lines on the 2 or 6. That will really sell modes to the listener.

And remember the importance of chords, drones, or pedal tones.

I hope this wasn’t too basic but honestly master this and you’re 90% there. Otherwise, just play really fast because then individual note selection won’t matter as much lol.

 

[ThePIGI King]

All good brother. Moses just really clicked and made sense to me. I am actually not a big theory guy anyway, but thought they were a good launching pad.

I'm glad you and Moses hit it off - did you go on vacation with him to that desert resort by the Red Sea?

 

[ThePIGI King]

I...wouldn't usually interject just to disagree but honestly I can't think of a worse place personally They get so strangely understood and weirdly contextualised (especially when it comes to guitar and thinking of them as just fretboard shapes) even by people with other knowledge. They are fundamentally reliant on other knowledge to understand.

I'd start with intervals, major and minor scale, and basic triad construction. With emphasis on intervals every step of the way !

The note intervals are messing with my head - how can it be a fifth if it's not 5 falf steps? Thats what I learned as a fifth, so unlearning terms and learning them the right way is gonna suck.

 

[tedtan]

The note intervals are messing with my head - how can it be a fifth if it's not 5 falf steps? Thats what I learned as a fifth, so unlearning terms and learning them the right way is gonna suck.

The names of the intervals come from the intervals of the major scale, so the distance between the first and second note is called a second, the distance between the first and fifth note is called a fifth, and so on. That means that they are not named based on the number of half steps; five half steps equals an interval of a fourth rather than a fifth. While that doesn't make sense on the surface, it will once you start relating things back to the major scale.

Man, I've typed this probably four different ways trying to make it make sense lol

I want to understand why things work. I listen to a lot of Tech Death and when I watch videos with the guitarists, they often mention what they're doing/thinking. This includes scales, chord progressions, altering scales/chords (minor 7th instead of whatever it's supposed to be) and whatnot.

To answer your second (and kind of first) question, I do not know any scales. I don't have any memorized. But if you tell me the notes needed to play them, I can find them/play it. I have a coupe chord shapes memorized, but only in one position. So no, I don't know scales or chords. I've always played by sound. If it sounded good, it was good lol

I'm interested in why the muscians choose the notes they choose. Because I generally stumble upon things. I have a book called The Guitar Grimoire, and so if I want to play a certain scale I can, but that's not me knowing anything.

If none of that makes sense, let me know and I'll try again lol

I'm going to recommend you you start working on three separate but related areas simultaneously. Also, while there are a lot of good videos out there for free these days, it's tough to find something comprehensive on video, so I'm going to recommend that you pick up a few books and as you work your way through the books, you can also search for videos on the topics you are currently working on. This way you won't end up with holes in your knowledge because you didn't know to search out videos on those topics.

First let's look at music theory. Here I always say that theory is descriptive rather than prescriptive, meaning that it will tell you why something sounds the way it sounds rather than tell you what to play. However, once you learn the sounds and why and when they work, you can easily use theory to help recreate them when you want them in the future, so it can be a guide as well. OK, so I recommend you pick up one of two books to start with, both of which are pretty easy for a beginner to work through: either Musician Institute's Harmony and Theory or Edly's Music Theory for Practical People. These will start out with the basics like note names, intervals, pitch, rhythm and harmony and go through harmonic progressions and chord/scale theory (why musicians choose the notes they choose). If you want more after you work through that first book, grab a copy of Tonal Harmony by Kostka and Payne.

Second, let's look into guitar theory. This is just learning how the fretboard is laid out and applying what we learn of music theory to the guitar. And while I agree with the earlier comment that keyboard instruments make learning theory easier (because they are linear), if we are guitar players, we need to know how to apply that theory to the guitar. There are a couple of books I recommend here: Guitar Theory for Dummies or Berklee Guitar Theory. To these you could add Musician Institute's Guitar Fretboard workbook.

Last, while not necessary to play guitar, it's pretty helpful to be able to read music, so I recommend Musician Institute's Music Reading for Guitar to help with this.