Tools for fretwork?

[AwakenTheSkies]

I took a look at my frets after polishing them. Some of the crowns don't look very pro . Might have to give it another go tomorrow. I used the marker method. Filed with the S-file until the line wasn't getting any thinner.
Then to clean them I polished with 400 and 1000 grit polishing rubbers. Can the 400 grit be too much and undo the crown? Or the rubbers won't take off nickel? The fret itself looks round.

Kinda wondering if it's worth it to do it again, since the guitar plays very good as it is. What's the symptoms of bad crowning? Is it supposed to sound out of tune?

 

[nightsprinter]

I've never had an issue with fret erasers/rubbers doing any damage regardless of grit *shrugs*

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Nice restraint. When I encounter the "bit of rocking" I go on a fuckin spirit quest with 400 grit sandpaper pieces and micromesh. Sometimes it works great, sometimes it's a waste of time tail chasing.

Yeah, but it was my first time. I had to file a lot because there was one fret that was too low and wasn't getting leveled.

I kept checking with the fret rocker now and then and once I saw like 95% of the frets were level, I didn't want to push my luck any further. Because I have one guitar where I can set the action really low but if I check with a rocker some frets will still have a little movement, so I thought maybe it'll be good enough.

I was on a time limit too because I still had to eat and go to work. Tomorrow I'll do some more.

What do you guys use to clean up all the mess? I had to use a hoover. There was too much to clean up with just a rag. It wasn't really metal shavings, more like dust. Does it still stick to pickups? I covered them with masking tape just in case anyway. Hopefully my PC fans didn't take any of it in..

 

[pahulkster]

I've only done one crowning job with it but I like the Music Nomad file so far. It's less aggressive than my Fretguru file and just nice quality overall. Also got one of their fret guards that made polishing less tedious which is always a plus.

 

[CleansingCarnage]

Yeah, but it was my first time. I had to file a lot because there was one fret that was too low and wasn't getting leveled.

I kept checking with the fret rocker now and then and once I saw like 95% of the frets were level, I didn't want to push my luck any further. Because I have one guitar where I can set the action really low but if I check with a rocker some frets will still have a little movement, so I thought maybe it'll be good enough.

I was on a time limit too because I still had to eat and go to work. Tomorrow I'll do some more.

What do you guys use to clean up all the mess? I had to use a hoover. There was too much to clean up with just a rag. It wasn't really metal shavings, more like dust. Does it still stick to pickups? I covered them with masking tape just in case anyway. Hopefully my PC fans didn't take any of it in..

If you went at it with the 400 grit eraser for long enough it would round off the crown, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. When you're polishing you're just trying to remove the scratches from your previous stage of work until you get to a level where they can't be noticed.

That dust will still stick to pickups, yep. I do like you did and tape up the pickups, then use a shop vac to clean up as much as I can and get the rest with a rag.

 

[Asdrael]

I took a look at my frets after polishing them. Some of the crowns don't look very pro . Might have to give it another go tomorrow. I used the marker method. Filed with the S-file until the line wasn't getting any thinner.
Then to clean them I polished with 400 and 1000 grit polishing rubbers. Can the 400 grit be too much and undo the crown? Or the rubbers won't take off nickel? The fret itself looks round.

Kinda wondering if it's worth it to do it again, since the guitar plays very good as it is. What's the symptoms of bad crowning? Is it supposed to sound out of tune?

Congrats on the restrain and being happy with how it came out. Satisfying isn't it?

I wouldn't hit the tops with 400 for more than a few passes. I use sandpaper that I roll up to hit the sides of the fret and avoid the top untill like 800 grit, then I move on to micromesh P1000+ and hit the tops.

As for bad crowning, intonation might be slightly out but tbh unless it's completely flat you won't hear it. What you might hear is some kind of buzzing because the string is laying on a surface instead of a point. Play a note while not pressing hard on the string, if it "buzzes", the crown is flat.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Congrats on the restrain and being happy with how it came out. Satisfying isn't it?

I wouldn't hit the tops with 400 for more than a few passes. I use sandpaper that I roll up to hit the sides of the fret and avoid the top untill like 800 grit, then I move on to micromesh P1000+ and hit the tops.

As for bad crowning, intonation might be slightly out but tbh unless it's completely flat you won't hear it. What you might hear is some kind of buzzing because the string is laying on a surface instead of a point. Play a note while not pressing hard on the string, if it "buzzes", the crown is flat.

Thank you.

Today I did the 8 string! I fixed the problems I had with it too. Turns out those two bad frets were like that because of a low fret in between them. I had to file a lot to make the rocking go away. So a few months ago I hit my guitar with a hammer for nothing!
These crowns are really wide though. I'll post two pictures.

This is the S-file on a fret that wasn't leveled too much, next to a fret that's not crowned at all.

However, this is the S file on the frets that have been leveled a lot. I hope you can see more or less. The crown is too wide.

I don't know if the S file is to blame for this. It's my second time ever doing it so maybe it's me. But I don't know if there's a lot of technique to using the S file, it's pretty simple. Maybe I'll have to buy the Z file after all.

Anyway, thank you everyone who participated in this thread. Like you see, things aren't perfect but at least it hasn't been a complete disaster like it could have been. Still got to practice but what little I've done so far has made the guitars better, not worse.

 

[CleansingCarnage]

I mean you can still tell it's doing its job pretty well. I'd call that pretty acceptable. You got it nice and even along the length of the fret.

 

[nightsprinter]

I call those type of crowns "school bus" frets because they look like a bus roof. Ripped that off from Dan Erlewine, but I'd see them all the time on old Jacksons that had the mondo jumbo frets

 

[Asdrael]

Thank you.

Today I did the 8 string! I fixed the problems I had with it too. Turns out those two bad frets were like that because of a low fret in between them. I had to file a lot to make the rocking go away. So a few months ago I hit my guitar with a hammer for nothing!
These crowns are really wide though. I'll post two pictures.

This is the S-file on a fret that wasn't leveled too much, next to a fret that's not crowned at all.

View attachment 146608

However, this is the S file on the frets that have been leveled a lot. I hope you can see more or less. The crown is too wide.

View attachment 146610

I don't know if the S file is to blame for this. It's my second time ever doing it so maybe it's me. But I don't know if there's a lot of technique to using the S file, it's pretty simple. Maybe I'll have to buy the Z file after all.

Anyway, thank you everyone who participated in this thread. Like you see, things aren't perfect but at least it hasn't been a complete disaster like it could have been. Still got to practice but what little I've done so far has made the guitars better, not worse.

On the 24th fret you can try rocking the fret crowning file a bit: one pass tilted towards the nut, one pass towards the bridge. That will help slim down that middle sharpy line. Be careful to keep the line straight and centered though it's easy to lose the line that way. Don't overthink keeping the fret perfectly round or whatever though: only the top counts, and the sanding and polishing after crowning will round off any unevenness.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

On the 24th fret you can try rocking the fret crowning file a bit: one pass tilted towards the nut, one pass towards the bridge. That will help slim down that middle sharpy line. Be careful to keep the line straight and centered though it's easy to lose the line that way. Don't overthink keeping the fret perfectly round or whatever though: only the top counts, and the sanding and polishing after crowning will round off any unevenness.

Can I round or flatten with 400 grit polishing rubber? I wonder..I kinda hope not because that's what I was using to polish the frets, then with 1000 grit.

My mission today is try and make the flatter frets thinner on the top. I was kind of scared tonight at work because I kept thinking maybe I leveled the frets too low.
But when I got home I saw that the flatter frets are still around 1mm. Then I measured the depth of the S file curve and it's less than 0.5 millimetres. So it should be possible to crown. But it's not crowning? The frets are jumbo and I filed with the Wide +0.094 side. What if I file with the narrower side, I wonder if that could help?

For this, I will grab one of my destroyed guitars and file a fret really flat and try your advice about rocking to one side then the other, see if I that gets me closer to where I want to be.. then if I get the trick, I'll do it on the 8 string and the other one.

 

[Asdrael]

P400 will remove material. It's not about making it rounder or flater, it's about not changing the actual contact point height of the fret with the string. And P400 with moderate pressure and a few too many passes removes enough material to make enough difference in my experience. That's why I avoid the top of the fret after crowning until I reach 800 grit or so. (I usually do then 800 all the way till 3000 and then hit it with Autosol). But it depends how and how long you do it.

One thing you can also try is to not use the Wide side but use the medium side. Depends on how they are actually shaped. The medium side might allow you to reach a thinner line quicker. I would say give it a shot: mark your fret top, do one with the "rocking" technique, and one with the medium width side. Key thing: don't touch the top of the fret!

 

[nightsprinter]

Can I round or flatten with 400 grit polishing rubber? I wonder..I kinda hope not because that's what I was using to polish the frets, then with 1000 grit.

My mission today is try and make the flatter frets thinner on the top. I was kind of scared tonight at work because I kept thinking maybe I leveled the frets too low.
But when I got home I saw that the flatter frets are still around 1mm. Then I measured the depth of the S file curve and it's less than 0.5 millimetres. So it should be possible to crown. But it's not crowning? The frets are jumbo and I filed with the Wide +0.094 side. What if I file with the narrower side, I wonder if that could help?

For this, I will grab one of my destroyed guitars and file a fret really flat and try your advice about rocking to one side then the other, see if I that gets me closer to where I want to be.. then if I get the trick, I'll do it on the 8 string and the other one.

I'd bet a person can round and flatten with 400 polishing rubber if they go at it long enough like anything else. My bigger concern with them was always going through the stages of fret erasers from 180 grit to 2000 grit was I'd go at them like a madman and the friction would get the fret hot and I was worried about softening the glue helping to keep the fret seated. But I never had any adverse issues really and I've done probably close to 40 or more level/crown/polishes in the past couple years. I think it's a skillful and delicate process to get a feel for this stuff so being a little sketched about being careful to do a good job is normal. Just keep taking your time and assess along the way like you're doing.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

I couldn't bring myself to ruin one of the frets on the old Epi Special II, so I just did a full fret level on it as well. Have leveled some frets very flat which is good because that's what I wanted to practice. Woke up, had a cig and coffee and went straight to it.

So I guess what I did wrong yesterday was that I didn't file enough with the S file.
This is a few frets where I filed a lot then a few frets where I filed very gently like yesterday.

Got to be careful, you can see even with the safe zone I managed to scratch the top a little bit. Unfortunately the rocking to the side technique wasn't very good in this case because as soon as I leave the center the file disconnects from the fret.

Have to pay attention to how the file sounds and feels when filing a fret that needs more crowning vs how it feels when it's almost done.

This is with the narrow side though, and these frets are medium. Hopefully the jumbo side works just as well...

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

A lot happier with these resulta

The 8 string

The Epi Special II

Will avoid hitting the tops with 400 grit rubber now...

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

So if I want to do basses too, is it worth it to get a longer leveling beam? Or should I just use this one?

The MusicNomad L-Beam I have is 17,6", on the 24,75" guitar it covered all the frets with each pass. On the 26,5" it covered 22 of the 24 frets, but I didn't have to worry about it because with the natural arm movement I'd still cover all 24 frets with each pass.

 

[nightsprinter]

I don't think there's any rule about it and I know of a few people who use short bars for everything. I use a 21" bar for everything unless I have a neck where I'm suspicious of its behavior under string tension for which I use an 18" understring leveler from stewmac.

What I really want is a long chunk of Corian for a bar but until I stumble upon one, the above is what I use.

Again, I'm a nobody who just learned stuff for fun a few years ago so I'd listen to the OG's before I'd listen to me.

 

[Purelojik]

So im late in responding but early on when you're getting used to the Zfile you gotta keep the file straight all the time. any twist will make it slip and it'll marr the top of the fret which is annoying. What I do to get a thin line is I'll be 90' degrees first and file one way and then turn the tool around to get the other side. then I'll lean the file to one side and file straight with one side of the file almost touching the fretboard like 45 degrees. then I'll do the other side. one of the sides of the file will cut more than the other so when you figure that out it''ll help when trying to narrow that fat line up top on the fret. It takes some trial and error but its now nearly flawless with me. I'll say the Z file with the handle is more prone to slipping than the shortened version with the rubber banding as a grip. i'd recommend the shorter file vs the one with the longer handle. hope this make sense if not then I'll try to elaborate more

 

[nightsprinter]

So im late in responding but early on when you're getting used to the Zfile you gotta keep the file straight all the time. any twist will make it slip and it'll marr the top of the fret which is annoying. What I do to get a thin line is I'll be 90' degrees first and file one way and then turn the tool around to get the other side. then I'll lean the file to one side and file straight with one side of the file almost touching the fretboard like 45 degrees. then I'll do the other side. one of the sides of the file will cut more than the other so when you figure that out it''ll help when trying to narrow that fat line up top on the fret. It takes some trial and error but its now nearly flawless with me. I'll say the Z file with the handle is more prone to slipping than the shortened version with the rubber banding as a grip. i'd recommend the shorter file vs the one with the longer handle. hope this make sense if not then I'll try to elaborate more

Interesting. I have the original z and haven't used it yet. I plan to in a couple days. I'm used to the dual grit files from stewmac but not this one. Do you mean literally 90 degrees like the side of the file nearly resting on the fingerboard? I must be thinking that through incorrectly because 90 degrees wouldn't be achievable on the upper frets. Well, I guess it would be, just at less an angle than the frets with a wider fingerboard slice.

I understand the 45 degree angle part of it because I've used that technique loads of times to try to thin out the marker line on top of the fret, so it's the just the visualization of this 90 degree thing that is throwing me off.

Thanks for the tip on the slippage. That's something I'm always a bit weary of. I once slipped with a beveling file and it did unbelievable damage to my frets. Luckily it was on a training neck but holy shit I don't want to live through that again.

 

[Purelojik]

Interesting. I have the original z and haven't used it yet. I plan to in a couple days. I'm used to the dual grit files from stewmac but not this one. Do you mean literally 90 degrees like the side of the file nearly resting on the fingerboard? I must be thinking that through incorrectly because 90 degrees wouldn't be achievable on the upper frets. Well, I guess it would be, just at less an angle than the frets with a wider fingerboard slice.

I understand the 45 degree angle part of it because I've used that technique loads of times to try to thin out the marker line on top of the fret, so it's the just the visualization of this 90 degree thing that is throwing me off.

Thanks for the tip on the slippage. That's something I'm always a bit weary of. I once slipped with a beveling file and it did unbelievable damage to my frets. Luckily it was on a training neck but holy shit I don't want to live through that again.

Basically normal filing position directly over the fret. just position the fretboard/neck in the necessary angle so that when you move your hand back and forth, its in the straightest position.