US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

[thebeesknees22]

Also, Trump was caught hoarding stuff long after he was no longer president. Biden is still the actual president.

Does that not count for anything?

i think the main issue is Biden is giving stuff back when asked or when things are found. Trump refused. For over a year he refused, and after being asked repeatedly.

If Trump would have just given the stuff back when asked then it would have been a non issue.

 

[JSanta]

Meh…Trump still has a top secret security clearance, so that is a moot point. He’s allowed to have those types of docs, as is Biden. Presidents through history have taken home secret docs - what do you think they use to create and build out their presidential libraries?

This has happened for decades and no one has given a shait … until now.

Except that even if you have a clearance, it does not give you the legal right to remove those documents from a classified holding facility. Removing those documents without them being declassified or following the appropriate classified mailing/shipment process is not only illegal, but stupid. Regardless of the precedence, your position in the government does not mean that you have carte blanche authority to not have the appropriate safeguards in place when handling classified documentation or information.

So unless Mar-a-Lago or the Biden home has been marked as a SCIF or other type of classified holding facility, what both men did was illegal and an abuse of power.

 

[DarkstarII]

Except that even if you have a clearance, it does not give you the legal right to remove those documents from a classified holding facility. Removing those documents without them being declassified or following the appropriate classified mailing/shipment process is not only illegal, but stupid. Regardless of the precedence, your position in the government does not mean that you have carte blanche authority to not have the appropriate safeguards in place when handling classified documentation or information.

So unless Mar-a-Lago or the Biden home has been marked as a SCIF or other type of classified holding facility, what both men did was illegal and an abuse of power.

Removing classified docs from a holding facility never amounted to much (if any) penalty to Sandy Berger or the hundreds of other incidents like that over the decades. Trump had been relentlessly investigated for years; they perhaps thought the request to return docs was an extension of that, or another chance at a “gotchya” moment. I have no idea…

All I’m saying is that both of these situations are being massively blown out of proportion.

 

[nightflameauto]

Idk, I still feel like this is a nothing burger. The crime is not possession of the documents, for Trump it was refusal to comply with returning them. For the Biden team, as soon as they were found they were given back. In criminal law the intent is a huge part of any case. I doubt that any of this matters to partisans though.

Oh, don't worry. I've already heard rumors circulating among the usual suspects that Biden's team knew about those documents for years and were hoarding them hoping to not get caught with them. Because if they say it often enough, the dumbass public at large will believe it and they can, "whatabout" their way right out of Trump being as awful as he was/is.

I do think both were blown way out of proportion, but if you have to give the edge in stupid to somebody in this case it's clearly the guy that refused to give the documents to the proper authorities and held out to the point they needed to come take them back. Calling what happened a "raid" in the media seems a little over-hyped as well, but it wouldn't have happened had the dude just went, "oh, shit, sorry," and handed them back. Instead he stamped his foot, said, "NO! MINE!" then went ranting all over about how certain parts of the constitution should be "impeached," because he doesn't understand what words mean. (Repealed. The word would be repealed. Couldn't he have hired an intern to tell him that?)

 

[tedtan]

Couldn't he have hired an intern to tell him that?

Sure, but he never listens to anyone, so it wouldn’t have changed the outcome.

 

[JSanta]

Removing classified docs from a holding facility never amounted to much (if any) penalty to Sandy Berger or the hundreds of other incidents like that over the decades. Trump had been relentlessly investigated for years; they perhaps thought the request to return docs was an extension of that, or another chance at a “gotchya” moment. I have no idea…

All I’m saying is that both of these situations are being massively blown out of proportion.

Therein lies part of the problem. The fact that people are not being held accountable for breaking the law is a major problem. I completely disagree that this is not a big deal. The fact that elected officials (and many others) have not been held accountable for breaking the law is the larger problem IMO. Had I mishandled classified documents when I was working in that world, I knew my world could possibly be over. Precautions to manage the handling of these documents and information was highly managed, as it should be.

 

[Drew]

It was stupid of the Biden administration and Biden personally, and makes it a LOT harder politically to hold Trump accountable for his superficially-similar-but-very-different actions. But, there are some massive differences here - the fact the Biden team contacted the national archives when they found classified documents, the fact that Biden allowed the DoJ to search his residence volentarily, and they didn't have to raid with a warrant because he was claiming there were no documents, etc.

But, in practical terms, it means for Trump to face legal liability for actually stealing classified documents, we probably now need pretty good evidence that he was trying to sell the nuclear secrets he stole. Which, he's such a scheming fuckwad I could kind of see that evidence existing.

I still think the "11,700 votes" in Georgia are what's going to ultimately send him to jail, though.

 

[bostjan]

It was stupid of the Biden administration and Biden personally, and makes it a LOT harder politically to hold Trump accountable for his superficially-similar-but-very-different actions. But, there are some massive differences here - the fact the Biden team contacted the national archives when they found classified documents, the fact that Biden allowed the DoJ to search his residence volentarily, and they didn't have to raid with a warrant because he was claiming there were no documents, etc.

But, in practical terms, it means for Trump to face legal liability for actually stealing classified documents, we probably now need pretty good evidence that he was trying to sell the nuclear secrets he stole. Which, he's such a scheming fuckwad I could kind of see that evidence existing.

I still think the "11,700 votes" in Georgia are what's going to ultimately send him to jail, though.

IF it ever makes it to the point where he's facing criminal charges, can you imagine the lengths he will go through to get only 12 votes?

 

[thraxil]

100% OK with putting them both in jail.

 

[thebeesknees22]

100% OK with putting them both in jail.

But then we'd be left with Kamala in charge. And if something happened to her, then McCarthy.... God forbid,.... would be president.

So let's not put both in jail. Just Trump. McCarthy doesn't need to be 1st in line if Kamala became president by some circumstance. And he sure as heck doesn't need to be the president.

 

[nightflameauto]

But then we'd be left with Kamala in charge. And if something happened to her, then McCarthy.... God forbid,.... would be president.

So let's not put both in jail. Just Trump. McCarthy doesn't need to be 1st in line if Kamala became president by some circumstance. And he sure as heck doesn't need to be the president.

Solution: Put the entire elected federal government in jail. Then make them prove their innocence after the fact. Just like any common citizen accused of anything nefarious. Guilty until proven innocent. And good fucking luck to them proving their innocence.

Pitchforks down, folks. Only kidding. Sort of.

Pre-emptive argument: "But then nothing would get done!"
Me: "How's that different from now?"

 

[Drew]

100% OK with putting them both in jail.

Biden's enough of a patriot and public servant*, that if that's what it took, I suspect he'd take that deal.

*not saying this makes him an amazing president, just that I don't doubt he always wants to do the right thing for his country.

But then we'd be left with Kamala in charge. And if something happened to her, then McCarthy.... God forbid,.... would be president.

So let's not put both in jail. Just Trump. McCarthy doesn't need to be 1st in line if Kamala became president by some circumstance. And he sure as heck doesn't need to be the president.

TBH, this is only a very short term concern. If Biden for one reason or other is unable to execute the duties of the presidency, Harris is next in line. Once she becomes president, she names a new Vice President, and once they're sworn in, they become second in line behind her.

The risk would be if both Biden AND Harris were simultaneously rendered unfit for office, which is why they travel separately.

 

[thebeesknees22]

Biden's enough of a patriot and public servant*, that if that's what it took, I suspect he'd take that deal.

*not saying this makes him an amazing president, just that I don't doubt he always wants to do the right thing for his country.

TBH, this is only a very short term concern. If Biden for one reason or other is unable to execute the duties of the presidency, Harris is next in line. Once she becomes president, she names a new Vice President, and once they're sworn in, they become second in line behind her.

The risk would be if both Biden AND Harris were simultaneously rendered unfit for office, which is why they travel separately.

ah i see!

 

[Drew]

ah i see!

Yeah - line of succession is based on the role, not the person, and provided appropriate channels are followed, you CAN back-fill people. Like, McCarthy wouldn't stop being Speaker of the House and automatically become VP if Harris was incapacitated, you know?

 

[Drew]

Unrelated - four more Oathkeepers convicted of sedition:

Four More Oath Keepers Members Convicted of Sedition in Second Trial

The four members of the far-right militia were found guilty of seditious conspiracy nearly two months after the group’s leader, Stewart Rhodes, was convicted of the same charge in a separate proceeding.

www.nytimes.com

 

[bostjan]

In this day and age, I can almost guarantee that's how the GOP would try to argue how it works, though, convinced it was written in the constitution right next to the part about how a president cannot nominate a justice for the supreme court if they are in the last year of their term, unless they are republican.

 

[Ralyks]

Solution: Put the entire elected federal government in jail. Then make them prove their innocence after the fact. Just like any common citizen accused of anything nefarious. Guilty until proven innocent. And good fucking luck to them proving their innocence.

I am very much ok with this.

 

[Ralyks]

So I have a question for the right wingers who hate cancel culture: Want some M&Ms?

 

[ArtDecade]

So I have a question for the right wingers who hate cancel culture: Want some M&Ms?

"Ms are upside down Ws. And, Ws are used to spell woke. Make candy great again." - DeSantis probably

 

[Ralyks]

"Ms are upside down Ws. And, Ws are used to spell woke. Make candy great again." - DeSantis probably

Nah, Tucker Carlson started this shit. If we as a country can't agree on FUCKING M&M'S, I no longer wish to live in this planet.