US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

[ArtDecade]

Republicans are so weird, y'all. So, so weird.

 

[Randy]

What principle would that be? Maybe some more tax cuts for the rich, defense spending, trade wars, cutting social programs and stoking cultural warfare and division? Those kind of Republican principles?

I don't think Republicans have the solutions but the Biden admin handling of the border has been asinine.

 

[bostjan]

So a candidate whose administration has been pretty damn effective as far as what can reasonably be done, like passing infrastructure spending, gains in controlling healthcare costs, avoiding a recession and managing to galvanize international support after the damage of the previous administration, is a "shitshow". I really don't know who could have done better.

What principle would that be? Maybe some more tax cuts for the rich, defense spending, trade wars, cutting social programs and stoking cultural warfare and division? Those kind of Republican principles?

This is likely what it's all about for that small percentage of Americans that will decide the election.

I know you mean well by saying this, and I appreciate that. However, I strongly believe you are being overly naive with this statement. If you care not to hear why I think so, please stop reading here....

Forget about comparing him to Trump for a minute.

The infrastructure spending passed (congress), but ithe execution (executive) of actually fixing anything hasn't been so smooth.

Controlling health care costs is a great promise. I don't know about anyone else, but, at the moment, my health care cost is the highest it has been in my entire life. And my insurance provider just dropped a bunch of providers last week, so, for vision, I have to go about 50 miles from home to get in network.

Avoiding recession?! Technically yes, but (very important but) inflation is out of control (because of congress during Trump, mostly) and wages have not boosted to keep up. So, even though corporations are not in recession, the average consumer is now having a harder time affording a car, affording rent, affording groceries, etc. Telling these struggling people from a podium that everything is fine because there is technically no recession is where Biden made the wrong move.

Internationally, we've got ourselves tied to war in Ukraine, which, even if not his fault, appears to be linked to Biden as the war started coincidentally with his inauguration. And the USA is now vetoing the UN at every step in Israel/Gaza. If you think that's a good look for us, then you have the wrong perspective. Pulling out of Afghanistan was done in the almost worst way (Trump's plan, but Biden signed the order). We cannot punish election interference. We have a border crisis. We are still in internal political turmoil that shows on the outside. The US's international reputation isn't being restored, it's being confirmed with less doubt that we are a mess.

 

[Riff the Road Dog]

I know you mean well by saying this, and I appreciate that. However, I strongly believe you are being overly naive with this statement. If you care not to hear why I think so, please stop reading here....

Forget about comparing him to Trump for a minute.

The infrastructure spending passed (congress), but ithe execution (executive) of actually fixing anything hasn't been so smooth.

Controlling health care costs is a great promise. I don't know about anyone else, but, at the moment, my health care cost is the highest it has been in my entire life. And my insurance provider just dropped a bunch of providers last week, so, for vision, I have to go about 50 miles from home to get in network.

Avoiding recession?! Technically yes, but (very important but) inflation is out of control (because of congress during Trump, mostly) and wages have not boosted to keep up. So, even though corporations are not in recession, the average consumer is now having a harder time affording a car, affording rent, affording groceries, etc. Telling these struggling people from a podium that everything is fine because there is technically no recession is where Biden made the wrong move.

Internationally, we've got ourselves tied to war in Ukraine, which, even if not his fault, appears to be linked to Biden as the war started coincidentally with his inauguration. And the USA is now vetoing the UN at every step in Israel/Gaza. If you think that's a good look for us, then you have the wrong perspective. Pulling out of Afghanistan was done in the almost worst way (Trump's plan, but Biden signed the order). We cannot punish election interference. We have a border crisis. We are still in internal political turmoil that shows on the outside. The US's international reputation isn't being restored, it's being confirmed with less doubt that we are a mess.

I don't think I'm being naive about anything. I'm comparing to what I have seen happen under Republican administrations past and what I expect they would do iif they have control over the executive branch. Yes. Forget about Trump for a moment. Even given the missteps, especially with the border situation early on, I have a real hard time believing anyone could have done much better. And I hate to think of the alternative. If you have any solutions based in a realistic view of what would be possible I'm all ears.

 

[Randy]

I don't think I'm being naive about anything. I'm comparing to what I have seen happen under Republican administrations past and what I expect they would do iif

they have control over the executive branch. Yes. Forget about Trump for a moment. Even given the missteps, especially with the border situation early on, I have a real hard time believing anyone could have done much better. And I hate to think of the alternative. If you have any solutions based in a realistic view of what would be possible I'm all ears.

I can't speak for bostjan but again, I view this this through the lens of what does a person whos not already committed to either party see? It's less about anyone saying "well I think Trump does a better job" more about apathy and not getting the 10,000 to 50,000 swing votes that will decide this.

I've spoken about it before but the handling of the border has been an absolute disaster. And that's coming from someone that pro immigrant. Hell, I'm pro asylum, pro dreamer, pro undocumented.

Like I said, I live in upstate NY and the state was inundated with tens of thousands of migrants over the last two years. It overwhelmed all the resources in NYC (where they were initially sent), and as a result they were bussed up state and put up in hotels and motels.

Once the xenophobia wore off (though it's still prevalent), the real issue became the infrastructure of handling that many people who don't have an income, don't speak the language, don't have a support system available to them (family, friends) beyond government services.

This was very taxing on the state and on the local governments, who made appeals to Biden for financial assistance and they were shut down across the board as more and more people arrived.

Now locally you've got the migrants protesting what they say are subhuman living conditions. Poor housing, rodent and insect infestation, poor quality food and no path forward. Worse than prison conditions.

So it's a lose lose for everyone. The infrastructure is bursting at the seams, the citizens are miserable, the migrants are miserable and stuck in a seemingly perpetual holding pattern.

There's a lot that can be done. Proportional assistance for communities that AREN'T along the border that took in these people would be a start. More case workers, immigration lawyers to process these people at a reasonable rate would go long way. Before families get broken up even more, get them a "yes or no" on their asylum requests and either send them back or get them in the pipeline to being able to subsist on their own (working papers, education, permanent housing).

 

[bostjan]

I don't think I'm being naive about anything. I'm comparing to what I have seen happen under Republican administrations past and what I expect they would do iif they have control over the executive branch. Yes. Forget about Trump for a moment. Even given the missteps, especially with the border situation early on, I have a real hard time believing anyone could have done much better. And I hate to think of the alternative. If you have any solutions based in a realistic view of what would be possible I'm all ears.

I believe Obama would have done better. I believe Clinton would have done better, hell, I mostly expect Reagan or Bush #1 would have done marginally better.

As for a realistic solution, there's nothing anyone as pion-level as us can do. I spent my 20's screaming from every mountaintop about how the political system was broken and it was pushing us toward cataclysm. The people in their 40's then said it was an inevitable path and there's nothing that can be done. I thought Bush #2 was going to be the worst president in my life. Then Trump happened. And Americans can't even agree that was a bad idea. I don't get what they see to overlook the flaws.

Say you have this friend. When you met, he promised to keep you safe. He promised to help you succeed with your business. He promised to help you identify toxic friends and support you in staying away from them. He promised he'd help you build a retaining wall you didn't think you needed. Let's say that, even though everyone knew he was full of shit, you started hanging out anyway. Next thing you know, he got you sick with his reckless behavior, he got you arrested, he replaced your most toxic friends with Lauren Boebert, he piled up four rocks and called it a wall. He made shady deals behind your back that harmed you, and when you confronted him, he replaced another friend of your with Rudy Giuliani. Then he tried to kill you the day you told him you didn't want to be friends, but, you managed to ditch him. You made a new best friend, but he's kind of boring and weak. So... what do you do? Evidently, pick up the phone a ring the guy who did everything wrong in a friendship!

That's basically what I see here. So, as much as Trump is a problem, I don't think he's at all the root cause. In my analogy, the protagonist quite obviously has some sort of emotional dependency and schizophrenia. In politics I think that equates to the voting population being delusional to the level that cries for help. But, like a person who refuses needed help, how to you fix the USA?

I'd love to hear an answer other than "you can't" or anything that boils down to wishful thinking.

But things just keep getting crazier. If we outlawed the GOP, they'd just rebrand the same craziness and steal power again under a different banner.

But you can't educate someone who denies all reason. You can't argue with someone who doesn't care about truth. You can't treat someone who refuses help.

 

[Crungy]

Think about the implications. If you put your own hard earned money into something you believe in, are you more emotionally involved or less after? Do you want MAGA supporters getting more emotionally invested in Trump?

They won't blame RNC, Lara Trump, or Donald Trump when it all goes south. They will blame the Democrats.

I'd rather Trump rots in prison due to not being able to hire someone who isn't a public defender or unqualified syncophant.

His supporters have already proven how emotionally invested they are since day one. No matter what proof has been shown to them they'll believe any yarn he spins them. I agree it's a scary predicament because of, well, January 6th. No one wants a sequel to that but we have to expect it in my opinion... It's happened once and could happen again.

They've blamed the democrats and will continue to do so, because they are so emotionally invested. That's all they have, emotional knee jerking. Unfortunately I think that trend will continue after Donnie Dickstain is dead and in the ground. He gave a stage to being a vengeful, immature piece of shit human being in America and people were emboldened by it.

He needs to go down "bigly" to send a message to the all of the sycophants from influential politicians to his commom supporters that he is nothing more than a conman that abused and tainted our country. My belief is people being burned by him giving their hard earned money is the way to do it. Money talks, bullshit walks. Maybe that will get through to them.

 

[Riff the Road Dog]

I can't speak for bostjan but again, I view this this through the lens of what does a person whos not already committed to either party see? It's less about anyone saying "well I think Trump does a better job" more about apathy and not getting the 10,000 to 50,000 swing votes that will decide this.

I've spoken about it before but the handling of the border has been an absolute disaster. And that's coming from someone that pro immigrant. Hell, I'm pro asylum, pro dreamer, pro undocumented.

Like I said, I live in upstate NY and the state was inundated with tens of thousands of migrants over the last two years. It overwhelmed all the resources in NYC (where they were initially sent), and as a result they were bussed up state and put up in hotels and motels.

Once the xenophobia wore off (though it's still prevalent), the real issue became the infrastructure of handling that many people who don't have an income, don't speak the language, don't have a support system available to them (family, friends) beyond government services.

This was very taxing on the state and on the local governments, who made appeals to Biden for financial assistance and they were shut down across the board as more and more people arrived.

Now locally you've got the migrants protesting what they say are subhuman living conditions. Poor housing, rodent and insect infestation, poor quality food and no path forward. Worse than prison conditions.

So it's a lose lose for everyone. The infrastructure is bursting at the seams, the citizens are miserable, the migrants are miserable and stuck in a seemingly perpetual holding pattern.

There's a lot that can be done. Proportional assistance for communities that AREN'T along the border that took in these people would be a start. More case workers, immigration lawyers to process these people at a reasonable rate would go long way. Before families get broken up even more, get them a "yes or no" on their asylum requests and either send them back or get them in the pipeline to being able to subsist on their own (working papers, education, permanent housing).

I agree with you here. Immigration is really the one issue I see with the current administration that could've been done a lot better, and it could've been done from the beginning. And it might be the single issue that will damn it, like you say. The expansion of amnesty and just generally not being prepared to take on the flood, now being in a place where a bill to try to manage the situation is not politically possible. All this was easy to forecast and could've been avoided.

 

[Randy]

I agree with you here. Immigration is really the one issue I see with the current administration that could've been done a lot better, and it could've been done from the beginning. And it might be the single issue that will damn it, like you say. The expansion of amnesty and just generally not being prepared to take on the flood, now being in a place where a bill to try to manage the situation is not politically possible. All this was easy to forecast and could've been avoided.

Interview with one of the migrant women living locally who said as soon as they got to US, Texas division of USCBP treated her husband as criminal for crossing the border and housed all the men separately, then sent her with the kids to another two or three stops on their way up here.

Imagine being that far removed from your loved ones, unsure if and when you'll ever see them again and with no concrete path forward.

They're begging for working papers, several of them worked on healthcare in their native countries but the path to getting working papers, necessary education/certification to work here etc is a long and again, uncertain one. The likelihood of turning to crime (which we've seen already) or prostitution just to survive becomes a very real possibility.

It's just bad bad bad for everyone involved.

 

[DarkstarII]

This has been some good discussion guys, please keep it up. (I’m being serious).

 

[Glades]

Interview with one of the migrant women living locally who said as soon as they got to US, Texas division of USCBP treated her husband as criminal for crossing the border and housed all the men separately, then sent her with the kids to another two or three stops on their way up here.

Imagine being that far removed from your loved ones, unsure if and when you'll ever see them again and with no concrete path forward.

They're begging for working papers, several of them worked on healthcare in their native countries but the path to getting working papers, necessary education/certification to work here etc is a long and again, uncertain one. The likelihood of turning to crime (which we've seen already) or prostitution just to survive becomes a very real possibility.

It's just bad bad bad for everyone involved.

If they crossed the border illegally, they are criminals. It is a violation of 8 US Code 1325.

I am a legal immigrant. We did the entire process to apply, interview and immigrate to this country how the law dictates. I have NEVER been treated like a criminal, because I didn’t break the law.

 

[Riff the Road Dog]

When the dogfish start biting it's time to quit fishing. I'm out.

 

[USMarine75]

If they crossed the border illegally, they are criminals. It is a violation of 8 US Code 1325.

I am a legal immigrant. We did the entire process to apply, interview and immigrate to this country how the law dictates. I have NEVER been treated like a criminal, because I didn’t break the law.

When the dogfish start biting it's time to quit fishing. I'm out.

 

[Randy]

If they crossed the border illegally, they are criminals. It is a violation of 8 US Code 1325.

I am a legal immigrant. We did the entire process to apply, interview and immigrate to this country how the law dictates. I have NEVER been treated like a criminal, because I didn’t break the law.

That's a tough one because you don't know exactly what those people were told when they started their journey.

Also, the US has been handling asylum cases AT the border and you could be talking about people that are a matter of a few hundred feet in the middle of the desert between being a legal asylum seeker and being a criminal.

Anyway, I'm not looking to make any excuses for him or anyone else. But clearly the WAY they were handled once USCBP got them was different drawn on lines of their gender, and "why" is a question worth asking. He'll most likely be processed for a misdemeanor charge of crossing and the asylum case will proceed anyway, so I don't really see any sense in you drawing a red line there.

I'd much rather asylum cases be housed and processed stateside than having people completely unfiltered through the border.

 

[OneTwoThrill]

What are the main concerns for US citizens?
Borders management ?
What a programme !

About economy management (large investments, seize the opportunity of a higher rate of the dollar to invest in public infrastructure and create jobs...), support to Ukraine... the Democrats win debates with no contest.

I cannot understand someone voting for Trump expect for pure "against vote" or childhood conditioning.

 

[Randy]

What are the main concerns for US citizens?

That's kind of a dicey question.

I live in New York State, which is a liberal state (all Democratic control, reliably vote for Democrats in Presidential elections). We also happen to have the highest number of people LEAVING our state and going to Republican states like Florida, Georgia and the Carolinas.

I know quite a few of those people that've left, a lot of them liberals that agree with the social issues here but the two big complaints are:

1. Cost of living (rent, home prices, taxes)
2. Quality of life (crime, healthcare, jobs, recreation)

I've harped on it a number of times but one things that most/all NYers agree is a problem was the "cashless" bail reform, which made it so that you get immediately released after you're arrested as long as it's a non-violent crime. This has led to a cycle of persistent retail theft, car break-ins etc. by people that commit crimes and are back on the street minutes later re-offending. And that has resulted in a malaise among law enforcement and discomfort among the general population.

And I think the bail reform bill was right-headed, because it was put in place since poor (and mostly minority) were stuck in jail for extended time for petty crimes while white people and white collar crime could pay to get out at will. But the result of HOW they instituted it has made life worse for everyone else. You see much of the same going on in liberal cities/states like San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, etc.

I think much of the same theme applies to the lack of an immigration policy, where you have some people who enter the country and because they're allowed to enter and travel unimpeded, they treat their new home like it's the wild wild west, and commit crimes openly, show general disrespect for their surroundings and others around them, etc. And again, liberal cities/states welcomed these people so they end up bearing a disproportionate brunt of the negative repercussions of it.

There'd be ways of correcting it while remaining humane, but the politics in this country has made it so that there's things Democrats won't touch JUST because politically they think that it bolsters Republican support. And in reality, being in control and NOT doing anything is probably pushing more people there.

I think things like this compound on people, and even if things are "okay" or "good" in this country in some respects, those other issues have a negative reverberating effect.

Speaking for myself, I know I live in an expensive state and I don't mind paying more in taxes etc for feeling safer, having a healthier environment, cleaner drinking water, better schools, etc. But if I pay the extra and it feels like life here is WORSE than other places, yes I start to distrust my leaders.

 

[PuckishGuitar]

There'd be ways of correcting it while remaining humane, but the politics in this country has made it so that there's things Democrats won't touch JUST because politically they think that it bolsters Republican support.

This applies to a great number of things unfortunately; Israel support quickly comes to mind. While cutting military aid as a response to Israel's Gaza excursion would be what most Democrats would want to see at minimum, doing so will just hand an easy talking point to Republicans to campaign on and low information voters will eat it up. Biden's waffling on what is his red line highlights this struggle. We have to break the notion in the first place that Israel has to be protected at all costs to get anything done, because that cost is getting pretty damn high now.

The opposite happens with immigration policy also, as we saw recently with Republicans tanking the border reform bill that they previously supported. We need to get over the idea that treating illegal/undocumented migrants like shit is the only way to do it, and work on finding solutions that actually work. There are a bunch of ideas floating around that aren't either "cruelly punish people that are most vulnerable" or "flower necklaces and hugs for all newcomers", but since they represent compromise and that's a dirty word lately in politics, they don't get the traction they need. We managed to allow millions to enter in the early 1900s to ultimately great success, and many of the same arguments for and against are the same as we hear now. Time to review what was done right back then and use that as a basis to move ahead, instead of jammed up on talking points.

 

[USMarine75]

Why are Conservatives so bad at this stuff?

 

[Randy]

We managed to allow millions to enter in the early 1900s to ultimately great success, and many of the same arguments for and against are the same as we hear now.

Because they were coming from Europe and we stuck the holding/processing facility in the port of the main entry, and we streamlined the processing system so that they could be accounted for and sent on their way.

If the bulk of impoverished people entering the country are coming from the southern border, build the equivalent of the US/Mexico Ellis Island, have space to house people ethically and 24/7 processing to figure out if they're staying or going back ASAP. It should be hours to days instead of months to years.

If they're staying, start the vetting process immediately as well as getting them means of finding work, education and housing the second their feet touch US soil..

 

[TedEH]

yes I start to distrust my leaders

I know this isn't the most useful comment, but it seems to me like it should be perfectly healthy to distrust political leaders "on your own team".