US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

[MaxOfMetal]

I'm not the biggest fan of Biden proclaiming the same day as the strike that the federal government is going to pay the bill for the entire cleanup and rebuild.

The shipping company and the state/local government are off the hook for their negligence? Who was that toll money being paid to?

Yeah, I feel like a "we'll front you until insurance pays up" would have been fine.

 

[Drew]

Well we can't observe the true intent. And the bill is a reflection of many voices, and not a singular intent. I can't speak to why the bill is the way it is. But what I can speak to in a testable/verifiable way is what the actual implications for the bill will be, and what interpretations of the bill are likely to be allowed under the larger system of checks and balances.

But to clarify, I'm not necessarily wagering that a federal check is necessary. It can still be under the jurisdiction of state courts. The bet certainly isn't on the Florida legislature, simply that some where in the system of checks, starting with Florida courts and potentially moving up to the federal level, the future that people are trying to get mad about is not going to happen.

And my point all along here is, we can be pretty sure about the true intent, and the more we as a society decide we can ignore the intent of a law because there are other checks and balances in place, the more likely those checks and balances get tested and, eventually, breached.

Again, there is an open wager on my part that this won't happen. Anyone who thinks Florida is going to block wikipedia and similar sites for everyone in the state because of this one open-ended clause, please take me up on it.

Ans, there's an open wager at $200 that you're as of yet unwilling to take, that despite your arguing the "true intent" is unknowable, that Florida will absolutely attempt to use this law to restrict access to sex education materials involving any discussion of trans or gay sexual identity outside of the classroom for minors, to further bolster their existing "Don't Say Gay" legislation on in-classroom instruction.

 

[Drew]

I'm not the biggest fan of Biden proclaiming the same day as the strike that the federal government is going to pay the bill for the entire cleanup and rebuild.

The shipping company and the state/local government are off the hook for their negligence? Who was that toll money being paid to?

I've only done cursory research here, but I understand there's a "Titanic law" in place that the shipping company will likely use, that limits their liability (and, in turn, the insurance payout) to basically the post-crash salvage value of the ship. If so, there's going to be a pretty big hole to plug.

 

[Briz]

Apolitical independent here. Not a fan of Trump. Just an observation on recent events. Does Biden ever NOT lie? Dude has to be the most compulsive liar in modern history. He's the only blatant racist to not be canceled for blatant racism. Grand cyclops mentor, didn't want kids to grow up in a racial jungle (pro segregation), touted George Wallace as a friend, took the train across a bridge that just collapsed (which never had a train), was raised in a black Puerto Rican Jewish Irish catholic community, his own VP called him a racist during the primaries, 1994 crime bill, disqualified in the 80's presidential race because of plagiarism, touted traditional marriage not even 15 years ago, and on and on and on. Receipts for all of this are available. It's undeniable. He's always been a compulsive liar and a plagiarist. It's a slap in the face to all sane Americans when people try to explain why these things are acceptable and his behavior is noble because the other guy is "the end of democracy."

This will be the most contentious, dishonest, and idiotic election cycle in my lifetime. It's like we're all just fine and dandy with lying, money grubbing bureaucratic oligarchs as long as they're on our team. Giant Meteor 2024. KJP has to hate life given that she's forced to spin lies because a geriatric idiot can't hold a press conference.

 

[spawnofthesith]

Nobody likes biden all that much, not even the people that voted for him. He's junk, not quite as much of a liar as trump

Unfortunately the right has been forcing hands

 

[Drew]

Apolitical independent here. Not a fan of Trump. Just an observation on recent events. Does Biden ever NOT lie? Dude has to be the most compulsive liar in modern history. He's the only blatant racist to not be canceled for blatant racism. Grand cyclops mentor, didn't want kids to grow up in a racial jungle (pro segregation), touted George Wallace as a friend, took the train across a bridge that just collapsed (which never had a train), was raised in a black Puerto Rican Jewish Irish catholic community, his own VP called him a racist during the primaries, 1994 crime bill, disqualified in the 80's presidential race because of plagiarism, touted traditional marriage not even 15 years ago, and on and on and on. Receipts for all of this are available. It's undeniable. He's always been a compulsive liar and a plagiarist. It's a slap in the face to all sane Americans when people try to explain why these things are acceptable and his behavior is noble because the other guy is "the end of democracy."

This will be the most contentious, dishonest, and idiotic election cycle in my lifetime. It's like we're all just fine and dandy with lying, money grubbing bureaucratic oligarchs as long as they're on our team. Giant Meteor 2024. KJP has to hate life given that she's forced to spin lies because a geriatric idiot can't hold a press conference.

I don't think Biden has been that bad a president, actually - unexpectedly effective, and I will be curious to see how his presidency is seen 20 years down the road. At a BARE minimum, I think this bridge really drives home how badly we needed that massive infrastructure bill he managed to get across the line, that had been a bipartisan pipe dream for at least the last 20 years.

That doesn't mean I didn't vote for him because he was Generic Democratic Candidate running against Donald Trump, just that he's easily overdelivered on that low bar.

BUT.

I'd also say you have to maybe look at some of the things you're saying he lied about.

Biden: "I took a train across that bridge, I'm really invested in getting it fixed," when here was no train tracks, but he still got the repair federally funded.
Trump: "I returned all the top secret documents I took with me from the White House," when he still had US nuclear secrets. "I didn't commit financial fraud" when he did. "I didn't encourage my supporters to riot and storm the capital building, to stop the formal certification of my loss" when it's REALLY hard to come to any other conclusion, and the federal government is in the process of trying to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the courts right now. And then there's the whole blackmailing-Ukraine-withholding-US-aid-so-they'd-announce-an-nvestigation-into-Hunter, which aged REALLY badly.
Obama: Actually, I don't remember Obama lying about much, the biggest scandal of his presidency was the tan suit and maybe slightly too liberal use of drone attacks.
GWB: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" when they did not.
Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" when he did. See also: Whitewater.
GHWB: "Read my lips: 'no new taxes,'" when there were new taxes.
Reagan: Hiding the fact he had dementia for at least the last two years of his second term.

Carter and Ford I'm a little fuzzy on, but then we get to Nixon and Watergate, Johnson again I'm a little fuzzy but then there's Kennedy hiding an affair with Marilyn Munroe...

And, Biden we're expected to crucify because he said he took a train over a bridge that didn't have train tracks? Or that he's a racist for his opposition to school bussing in the 80s, or his support of traditional marriage into the 90s, which both positions he now admits he was wrong on, and where there have been monumental social changes since this time, to the degree that he still had no problem picking Harris as his vice presidential pick six months after that exchange?

Like, there's a question of degree here and a matter of perspective. At least Biden didn't suggest injecting bleach so our bridges didn't collapse, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't tried to sell state nuclear secrets.

 

[bostjan]

I'm going to legally change my name to "None Ofthese Candidates." Might want to start being nice to me before January.

Seriously, though, what are the odds that both Trump and Biden will even be alive 4.5 years from now?

Democracy is done for. Think about it: two possible outcomes-

1. Biden wins. Despite however honest or not the election is, Trump declares fraud and insists he won. Chaos ensues.
2. Trump wins. Despite however honest or not the election is, half the country and a majority of the international community disbelieves the result. Trump declares a mandate and chaos ensues.

 

[bostjan]

I don't think Biden has been that bad a president, actually - unexpectedly effective, and I will be curious to see how his presidency is seen 20 years down the road. At a BARE minimum, I think this bridge really drives home how badly we needed that massive infrastructure bill he managed to get across the line, that had been a bipartisan pipe dream for at least the last 20 years.

That doesn't mean I didn't vote for him because he was Generic Democratic Candidate running against Donald Trump, just that he's easily overdelivered on that low bar.

BUT.

I'd also say you have to maybe look at some of the things you're saying he lied about.

Biden: "I took a train across that bridge, I'm really invested in getting it fixed," when here was no train tracks, but he still got the repair federally funded.
Trump: "I returned all the top secret documents I took with me from the White House," when he still had US nuclear secrets. "I didn't commit financial fraud" when he did. "I didn't encourage my supporters to riot and storm the capital building, to stop the formal certification of my loss" when it's REALLY hard to come to any other conclusion, and the federal government is in the process of trying to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the courts right now. And then there's the whole blackmailing-Ukraine-withholding-US-aid-so-they'd-announce-an-nvestigation-into-Hunter, which aged REALLY badly.
Obama: Actually, I don't remember Obama lying about much, the biggest scandal of his presidency was the tan suit and maybe slightly too liberal use of drone attacks.
GWB: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" when they did not.
Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" when he did. See also: Whitewater.
GHWB: "Read my lips: 'no new taxes,'" when there were new taxes.
Reagan: Hiding the fact he had dementia for at least the last two years of his second term.

Carter and Ford I'm a little fuzzy on, but then we get to Nixon and Watergate, Johnson again I'm a little fuzzy but then there's Kennedy hiding an affair with Marilyn Munroe...

And, Biden we're expected to crucify because he said he took a train over a bridge that didn't have train tracks? Or that he's a racist for his opposition to school bussing in the 80s, or his support of traditional marriage into the 90s, which both positions he now admits he was wrong on, and where there have been monumental social changes since this time, to the degree that he still had no problem picking Harris as his vice presidential pick six months after that exchange?

Like, there's a question of degree here and a matter of perspective. At least Biden didn't suggest injecting bleach so our bridges didn't collapse, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't tried to sell state nuclear secrets.

Obama: first thing I will do, if I'm elected, will be to shut down the detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
USA: OK, you win. Please shut it down.
Obama: Oh, well, uhhh, I can't... there is no place to put the detainees.
USA: Maybe just let them go or charge them?
Obama: no can do.

 

[ThePIGI King]

I don't think Biden has been that bad a president, actually - unexpectedly effective, and I will be curious to see how his presidency is seen 20 years down the road. At a BARE minimum, I think this bridge really drives home how badly we needed that massive infrastructure bill he managed to get across the line, that had been a bipartisan pipe dream for at least the last 20 years.

That doesn't mean I didn't vote for him because he was Generic Democratic Candidate running against Donald Trump, just that he's easily overdelivered on that low bar.

BUT.

I'd also say you have to maybe look at some of the things you're saying he lied about.

Biden: "I took a train across that bridge, I'm really invested in getting it fixed," when here was no train tracks, but he still got the repair federally funded.
Trump: "I returned all the top secret documents I took with me from the White House," when he still had US nuclear secrets. "I didn't commit financial fraud" when he did. "I didn't encourage my supporters to riot and storm the capital building, to stop the formal certification of my loss" when it's REALLY hard to come to any other conclusion, and the federal government is in the process of trying to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the courts right now. And then there's the whole blackmailing-Ukraine-withholding-US-aid-so-they'd-announce-an-nvestigation-into-Hunter, which aged REALLY badly.
Obama: Actually, I don't remember Obama lying about much, the biggest scandal of his presidency was the tan suit and maybe slightly too liberal use of drone attacks.
GWB: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" when they did not.
Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" when he did. See also: Whitewater.
GHWB: "Read my lips: 'no new taxes,'" when there were new taxes.
Reagan: Hiding the fact he had dementia for at least the last two years of his second term.

Carter and Ford I'm a little fuzzy on, but then we get to Nixon and Watergate, Johnson again I'm a little fuzzy but then there's Kennedy hiding an affair with Marilyn Munroe...

And, Biden we're expected to crucify because he said he took a train over a bridge that didn't have train tracks? Or that he's a racist for his opposition to school bussing in the 80s, or his support of traditional marriage into the 90s, which both positions he now admits he was wrong on, and where there have been monumental social changes since this time, to the degree that he still had no problem picking Harris as his vice presidential pick six months after that exchange?

Like, there's a question of degree here and a matter of perspective. At least Biden didn't suggest injecting bleach so our bridges didn't collapse, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't tried to sell state nuclear secrets.

I'll preface with the fact that all politicians are liars - and massively so.

But you only argued against one of the Biden lies - and it is easily the most forgivable, especially since I just said yesterday or so that it was in Boston lol

Let's also not forget that he constantly claims his deceased son died IN Iraq - when he did not. And there isn't a concrete connection between the burn pits and the cancer anyhow.

And I'll link non-right articles to help the case:

Biden again suggests son Beau died from Iraq War during call with family of solider killed in Jordan drone strike

President Biden once again suggested that his late son Beau died as a result of his service in Iraq while consoling a grieving Georgia family who lost their daughter from a drone strike in Jordan o…

nypost.com

Biden, 80, raises eyebrows after claiming late son Beau died in Iraq

President Joe Biden, 80, once again falsely claimed that his son Beau Biden was killed while serving in Iraq yet again while visiting with United States troops stationed in Japan Monday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Briz]

I don't think Biden has been that bad a president, actually - unexpectedly effective, and I will be curious to see how his presidency is seen 20 years down the road. At a BARE minimum, I think this bridge really drives home how badly we needed that massive infrastructure bill he managed to get across the line, that had been a bipartisan pipe dream for at least the last 20 years.

That doesn't mean I didn't vote for him because he was Generic Democratic Candidate running against Donald Trump, just that he's easily overdelivered on that low bar.

BUT.

I'd also say you have to maybe look at some of the things you're saying he lied about.

Biden: "I took a train across that bridge, I'm really invested in getting it fixed," when here was no train tracks, but he still got the repair federally funded.
Trump: "I returned all the top secret documents I took with me from the White House," when he still had US nuclear secrets. "I didn't commit financial fraud" when he did. "I didn't encourage my supporters to riot and storm the capital building, to stop the formal certification of my loss" when it's REALLY hard to come to any other conclusion, and the federal government is in the process of trying to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the courts right now. And then there's the whole blackmailing-Ukraine-withholding-US-aid-so-they'd-announce-an-nvestigation-into-Hunter, which aged REALLY badly.
Obama: Actually, I don't remember Obama lying about much, the biggest scandal of his presidency was the tan suit and maybe slightly too liberal use of drone attacks.
GWB: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" when they did not.
Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" when he did. See also: Whitewater.
GHWB: "Read my lips: 'no new taxes,'" when there were new taxes.
Reagan: Hiding the fact he had dementia for at least the last two years of his second term.

Carter and Ford I'm a little fuzzy on, but then we get to Nixon and Watergate, Johnson again I'm a little fuzzy but then there's Kennedy hiding an affair with Marilyn Munroe...

And, Biden we're expected to crucify because he said he took a train over a bridge that didn't have train tracks? Or that he's a racist for his opposition to school bussing in the 80s, or his support of traditional marriage into the 90s, which both positions he now admits he was wrong on, and where there have been monumental social changes since this time, to the degree that he still had no problem picking Harris as his vice presidential pick six months after that exchange?

Like, there's a question of degree here and a matter of perspective. At least Biden didn't suggest injecting bleach so our bridges didn't collapse, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't tried to sell state nuclear secrets.

Biden is a 100%, verified liar, racist and plagiarist. It's well documented from 1972 to present, and not from fringe right-wing media outlets. Everyone knows this to be true. I'm calling out his character, not trying to rally support for option B. He's been a compulsive liar far before age and potential mental decline could be seen as a factor.

Let me go on the record stating that I'm not a fan of Trump, either. I didn't like Trump before his political foray, and I don't like him now. But let's be honest here. There's no denying that Biden has a verifiable history of racism, plagiarism, lying, and behavior that's crafted to pander to whatever wins votes.

I'll cry a river because the Hawaii fire was like a kitchen fire where he almost lost his house, family, and beloved Corvette. A lie.

And I'm sympathetic to losing a loved one, as I just lost the rock of my family a week ago, but to lie about how his son died? That's pathetic.

Until we start voting 3rd party, we're stuck with this heap of dung. It's a forced choice between two parties, that really if you read interviews and historical biographies, is mostly (emphasis here, mostly) theater. They put on a show in public to spark sensationalism, but never seem to disagree (for the most part) about keeping power instead of being servants of the people (which they are). See STOCK Act for example.

The guy is a liar. It's not opinion.

 

[Drew]

Obama: first thing I will do, if I'm elected, will be to shut down the detention center at Guantanamo Bay.
USA: OK, you win. Please shut it down.
Obama: Oh, well, uhhh, I can't... there is no place to put the detainees.
USA: Maybe just let them go or charge them?
Obama: no can do.

Ah, thank you!

And then there's this bridge in Baltimore.

 

[Glades]

I don't think Biden has been that bad a president, actually - unexpectedly effective, and I will be curious to see how his presidency is seen 20 years down the road. At a BARE minimum, I think this bridge really drives home how badly we needed that massive infrastructure bill he managed to get across the line, that had been a bipartisan pipe dream for at least the last 20 years.

That doesn't mean I didn't vote for him because he was Generic Democratic Candidate running against Donald Trump, just that he's easily overdelivered on that low bar.

BUT.

I'd also say you have to maybe look at some of the things you're saying he lied about.

Biden: "I took a train across that bridge, I'm really invested in getting it fixed," when here was no train tracks, but he still got the repair federally funded.
Trump: "I returned all the top secret documents I took with me from the White House," when he still had US nuclear secrets. "I didn't commit financial fraud" when he did. "I didn't encourage my supporters to riot and storm the capital building, to stop the formal certification of my loss" when it's REALLY hard to come to any other conclusion, and the federal government is in the process of trying to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the courts right now. And then there's the whole blackmailing-Ukraine-withholding-US-aid-so-they'd-announce-an-nvestigation-into-Hunter, which aged REALLY badly.
Obama: Actually, I don't remember Obama lying about much, the biggest scandal of his presidency was the tan suit and maybe slightly too liberal use of drone attacks.
GWB: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" when they did not.
Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" when he did. See also: Whitewater.
GHWB: "Read my lips: 'no new taxes,'" when there were new taxes.
Reagan: Hiding the fact he had dementia for at least the last two years of his second term.

Carter and Ford I'm a little fuzzy on, but then we get to Nixon and Watergate, Johnson again I'm a little fuzzy but then there's Kennedy hiding an affair with Marilyn Munroe...

And, Biden we're expected to crucify because he said he took a train over a bridge that didn't have train tracks? Or that he's a racist for his opposition to school bussing in the 80s, or his support of traditional marriage into the 90s, which both positions he now admits he was wrong on, and where there have been monumental social changes since this time, to the degree that he still had no problem picking Harris as his vice presidential pick six months after that exchange?

Like, there's a question of degree here and a matter of perspective. At least Biden didn't suggest injecting bleach so our bridges didn't collapse, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't tried to sell state nuclear secrets.

Old Hickory was the GOAT

 

[Drew]

Biden is a 100%, verified liar, racist and plagiarist. It's well documented from 1972 to present, and not from fringe right-wing media outlets. Everyone knows this to be true. I'm calling out his character, not trying to rally support for option B. He's been a compulsive liar far before age and potential mental decline could be seen as a factor.

Let me go on the record stating that I'm not a fan of Trump, either. I didn't like Trump before his political foray, and I don't like him now. But let's be honest here. There's no denying that Biden has a verifiable history of racism, plagiarism, lying, and behavior that's crafted to pander to whatever wins votes.

I'm not even arguing with you here - it's just, compare his track record to every other US president we've ever elected, and ask yourself is this REALLY worse than Obama lying about Gitmo, or Nixon lying about Whitewater, or Trump lying about, like, everything.

I don't think anyone gets hurt when Biden says he crossed that bridge all the time on a train so he's really motivated to get it fixed and will make sure federal money is available, when there was no train but the money was there.

Sure, he's lied about stuff. But has that hurt Americans?

 

[Drew]

Old Hickory was the GOAT

Of all the TRULY surprising things that happened in the Trump administration, the rehabilitation of Andrew Jackson wasn't on my bingo card.

 

[brector]

Old Hickory was the GOAT

The irony of this coming from a supposed immigrant

 

[Briz]

I'm not even arguing with you here - it's just, compare his track record to every other US president we've ever elected, and ask yourself is this REALLY worse than Obama lying about Gitmo, or Nixon lying about Whitewater, or Trump lying about, like, everything.

I don't think anyone gets hurt when Biden says he crossed that bridge all the time on a train so he's really motivated to get it fixed and will make sure federal money is available, when there was no train but the money was there.

Sure, he's lied about stuff. But has that hurt Americans?

I'm saying he's a liar. The others mentioned aren't currently the POTUS. A lie is a lie. If our current POTUS lies incessantly about idiotic trivial things, what are the bigger lies that we're unaware of? I don't care if it's Washington all the way to Biden. Compulsive lying is a character flaw that should offend anyone with a moral compass.

 

[tedtan]

Apolitical independent here.

But let's be honest here. There's no denying that Biden has a verifiable history of… lying, and behavior that's crafted to pander to whatever wins votes.

I'm saying he's a liar. The others mentioned aren't currently the POTUS. A lie is a lie. If our current POTUS lies incessantly about idiotic trivial things, what are the bigger lies that we're unaware of? I don't care if it's Washington all the way to Biden. Compulsive lying is a character flaw that should offend anyone with a moral compass.

Welcome to politics?

 

[bostjan]

I'm saying he's a liar. The others mentioned aren't currently the POTUS. A lie is a lie. If our current POTUS lies incessantly about idiotic trivial things, what are the bigger lies that we're unaware of? I don't care if it's Washington all the way to Biden. Compulsive lying is a character flaw that should offend anyone with a moral compass.

Even most third party presidential candidates are compulsive liars. So who or what do you recommend?

 

[Briz]

I recommend we demand change and do so by forcing accountability through our votes. But that's a simple opinion on a complex issue. Vote out career politicians and remind the establishment that they are elected to serve us, honestly. Simple, but doable.

 

[Drew]

I'm saying he's a liar. The others mentioned aren't currently the POTUS. A lie is a lie. If our current POTUS lies incessantly about idiotic trivial things, what are the bigger lies that we're unaware of? I don't care if it's Washington all the way to Biden. Compulsive lying is a character flaw that should offend anyone with a moral compass.

Yeah, I'll second these two:

Welcome to politics?

Even most third party presidential candidates are compulsive liars. So who or what do you recommend?

You find me someone who hasn't lied about something like taking a train over a bridge that doesn't have train tracks, and I'll show you someone who's never run for President.

I'm WAY more concerned about the big, sweeping, impactful lies like "I'm going to replace the ACA with something better" and then merely trying to repeal it, or "I won the election! MASSIVE voter fraud! Stop The Steal" because he couldn't imagine really having lost, than I am about lying about why he wanted to fix something that he was still fixing. I'm all for a moral compass - I'm also realistic enough to be pragmatic about evaluating what really violates that compass and what's kind of dumb but doesn't.

I'm definitely not telling you that you have to LIKE Biden, either - plenty of reasons you could disagree with him on policy. I've got my issues too, though he at least belatedly is growing a set with Israel. But, this is a REALLY weird hill to choose to die on.