tedtan
Well-Known Member
Agreed. The general tenor is that Biden isn’t Trump.
He has done better than I initially expected, but my expectations were extremely low to begin with.
I think that was intended as a joke, but if not
US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)
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He has done better than I initially expected, but my expectations were extremely low to begin with.
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Drew
Forum MVP
A bipartisan infrastructure deal had been talked about for decades in Washington with every incoming president, and every time it went nowhere. I don't think the deal itself is a signature accomplishment, as much as the fact Biden took something that was supposed to be theoretically possible for a long time, and actually managed to get it done. Though, as part of it we've also seen the single biggest investments in public transportation and green energy that this country has ever seen, which I wouldn't completely discount, either.
But, this is a country with a well known history of political gridlock, and I'd argue it's probably worse now than at any time in living memory. The fact Biden was able to pass anything I think was kind of remarkable. I figured we'd spend the next four years in stasis and just kick the can down the road to whoever won in 2024.
EDIT - also, your choice of romantic/sexual metaphors here - "dick-riding," "stan-ing" - is a little, well, odd here, man.
Contextually, a reminder that this is in response to a guy that said he dipped out because there was some Biden praise that was over the top, and he got ratioed by someone saying it didn't happen.
My tone of choice here is referencing praise thats certainly above "better than Trump" or "surprisingly passed a couple things". I'll concede the choice of wording here is a little mean, though my intent was dual to bust-balls and note that the praise was more effusive than its being retconned here.
I'll admit I'm mostly remembering a post from Naren elsewhere, but I recall a similar retelling of the Biden legislation being 'biggest' 'most progressive' in history, etc etc. over here when it came up.
Drew
Forum MVP
I'd probably let it slide, normally - especially in that we've known each other forever and I know you're someone I can disagree with and it wont be personal - but if the issue here is, fundamentally, whether or not I'm progressive enough, then the borderline homoeroticism is probably counterproductive, you know?
I'd definitely agree with you that if fifty years from now people are looking back at the Biden infrastructure deals or the CHIPS act or whatnot, and calling him "the most progressive in history," then somewhere, somehow, things have gone, very, very, very, VERY wrong.
I just think he was unexpectedly effective. Not that he was unexpectedly progressive (I guess if pushed I'd say maybe at the margins, things like a heavier investment in green energy than I'd have expected or the fact that while his first attempt to cancel student debt got blocked by the courts, he's still been chipping away at it as his team finds new avenues to do so, but, like, let's call a spade a spade, he's probably left of Hillary Clinton but not by much). Rather, that he's just gotten a lot more done than I thought he would - even little shit like his first stimulus package passing quite close to the initial proposal. What he's done has been solidly center-left to center, and has involved some bipartisan support.... but that's outperforming expectations, in today's partisan gridlock. I suppose you fairly could say I'm splitting a kind of meaningless hair here - how much does it really matter that he's getting shit done, if it's not the stuff you care about? But, in January 2021, I figured the best we could hope for was four years of stasis and maybe Trump would die. Biden surprised me by actually being able to legislate, and I think the fact he came to office from the Senate probably DID help him there.
I fully agree that the Israel invasion of Gaza is a clusterfuck that Biden needs to shit or get off the pot about, of course. This is worse than his botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.
TedEH
Cromulent
It's a weird place to go in response to "nobody is worshiping Biden", which I still stand by. It's not really hyperbole when juxtaposed with an ex-president that people literally worshiped. "He's done a few good things, which is nice despite the bar being so low" is not really "dick riding".
nightflameauto
Well-Known Member
Maybe worships is the wrong word, but somehow any criticism of the guy is met with massive walls of text that all amount to, "He's amazing, shut up or Republicans will get talking points." And I have no desire to get any deeper in it than that.
Let it be known that my references to homoeroticism are not to be taken as a slur against homosexuality but rather a reference to affections beyond simple acknowledgement of accomplishments or events, objectively. If anyone here wants to partake in a homosexual relationship with an 80 year old man, you have my blessing.I'd probably let it slide, normally - especially in that we've known each other forever and I know you're someone I can disagree with and it wont be personal - but if the issue here is, fundamentally, whether or not I'm progressive enough, then the borderline homoeroticism is probably counterproductive, you know?
I'd definitely agree with you that if fifty years from now people are looking back at the Biden infrastructure deals or the CHIPS act or whatnot, and calling him "the most progressive in history," then somewhere, somehow, things have gone, very, very, very, VERY wrong.
I suppose you fairly could say I'm splitting a kind of meaningless hair here - how much does it really matter that he's getting shit done, if it's not the stuff you care about? But, in January 2021, I figured the best we could hope for was four years of stasis and maybe Trump would die. Biden surprised me by actually being able to legislate, and I think the fact he came to office from the Senate probably DID help him there.
I fully agree that the Israel invasion of Gaza is a clusterfuck that Biden needs to shit or get off the pot about, of course. This is worse than his botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.
FWIW, my gripe isn't on how progressive you or Biden are. The definition of progressivism in US politics has crept so far, it doesn't resemble what it was when I considered myself one. I think you could argue Biden WAS the most progressive president in X period of time, but the "what" and who it held, how much and in what way is what I've got more of an issue with. To that end, I thinks it's debt forgiveness (which still skews white, straight, and upper-middle/upper class) and not much else.
Beyond that, I dunno. He can say "well I tried" but he's had a lot of things that he eventually put his pen on that still didn't have enough direct effect on poor, working class, etc. The Infrastructure and CHIPs stuff are a metric ton of money to industries that already have money and people that already have guaranteed work. So his legislative (or executive?) goals can be met in the scope of dollars spent but not in who they help? Bullshit.
The handing of Israel-Gaza should be taken as both an example and also an analogy for the blindspots in who he extends his sympathies toward.
Give me a few. Bonus points if you don't google them.
JDB123
Newb Extraordinaire
Today's Overton window is a trainwreck.
TedEH
Cromulent
I'm not the one making points about the guy, I'm paraphrasing what I understand others to have said. Look at Drews posts, not mine. At zero point have I claimed to be the one making points about what Biden has done, and I don't know why you're coming at me as if I did. I don't understand the sudden hate-boner for anyone who doesn't immediately condemn Biden right now.
Some real "oh yeah, well name their last 3 albums" vibes in this thread right now.
This discussion is becoming fragmented to the point of being impossible to debate coherently/cohesively.
Someone said they tapped out of the thread because at some time previously, there was a heavy pro-Biden sentiment. YOU responded by saying it wasn't true. That's part of what drew you into the discussion. Then I referenced Drew posting, IMO, effusively about Biden at some point previously and I used the term "dick riding" and in a subsequent post, YOU referenced that comment. That would be why you're being drawn into this discussion.
TedEH
Cromulent
And I still think that. Nobody is or was worshiping Biden, as far as I understood. "He doesn't suck that bad" is not a very strong endorsement.
Drew
Forum MVP
I appreciate your permission. I guess in the same spirit, that while I do think Biden HAS done some things that are very good, I also don't think that means you personally have to like or respect him. You and I tend to agree bigger picture on objectives but disagree in the details on implementation, approach, and whether marginal improvement is better than holding out for bigger changes and risking none. There's a lot of room to disagree there, without disagreeing on some of the bigger-picture things like "we need to fix the college affordability crisis," or "the invasion of Gaza is a humanitarian disaster," or "we are way behind where we should be on the transition towards green energy." Biden's made some progress on the first and third, and at a minimum probably hasn't made the second worse in quite the same way as moving the US embassy in Israel to disputed territory in Jerusalem. That doesn't mean there isn't more that we both want to see done.
Mostly, though, I'm just fucking tired, at work, and trying to generate enough giving-of-a-shit about my job to tackle my next research report.
But I think if Biden is judged harshly by history, it's not going to be for things like his infrastructure bill not going far enough beyond things like heavy investments in green energy and in, oh, high speed internet access for parts of the country without, or not finding ways to cancel more student loans than he has. It'll be for trying to walk the middle during what looks an awful lot like a genocide in Gaza, and potentially blowing a critical re-election against an ex-president who is very openly talking about breaking the structure of US democracy if given another chance to sit behind the Resolute Desk, in doing so.
What if I like and respect him but I think most of what he's done was worthless?
Drew
Forum MVP
I mean, I think the bigger point is you don't need my permission or validation for whatever your feelings are.
In 2020, I voted for him as a placeholder that wasn't Trump until we could elect someone else. He's accomplished a lot more than that, some of his other flaws notwithstanding.
RevDrucifer
Well-Known Member
Ok, anyone want to explain to me WTF this is all about?
I know they’re in a one-man race to the bottom, but WTF?
I know they’re in a one-man race to the bottom, but WTF?
