When selling guitar, Required to disclose if original owner or not

[leonardo7]

Ive noticed that alot of people who buy guitars for cheap can sell the guitars for cheap. The more hands a guitar has gone through, the cheaper the price gets, not to mention much more general wear than when your buying from the original owner.

People tend to expect used prices from the original owner to be as low as when the guitar has gone through 3-4 owners. Shouldnt it be known why certain prices are so low and wouldnt it be good to know if your buying from the original owner or not?

Typically guitars will be in better condition when your buying from the original owner and people should be able to distinguish the difference between a guitar that is truly mint and not played much being sold by the original owner and one that has been shipped around 5 times and owned by numerous people. Otherwise people have no clue that the reason someone wants $1800 for a guitar and the reason someone else wants $2700 for the same guitar is because the cheaper one has gone through numerous hands, whereas the higher priced one has not and is probably in that much better overall condition because of it.

Buyers just assume that some guys charge too much and some guys give good deals, but thats not true at all. Prices usually reflect what one paid. When that someone can sell for cheap its cause they bought it used from a guy who traded it used from a guy who bought it used from a guy who bought it new. It would just be nice to know why some people want more or less for used guitars. Being required to at least disclose whether you are the original owner or not, and if not then how many owners are you aware of there being, could help many buyers in knowing why the price is what it is. It might also help give an overall feel for the condition.

 

[MoshJosh]

I think number of owners is kind of trumped by condition.

 

[leonardo7]

I think number of owners is kind of trumped by condition.

Well some sellers arent a good enough gauge of condition, so providing the number of owners could give some blind insight on the possible condition to the potential buyer when dealing with unknown sellers. You really have to trust the person your dealing with is what it comes down to. If someone has feedback that you trust then thats good but sooo many sellers arent a good gauge of condition. Just sayin

Also, my point was to give the buyer a less confusing answer to why certain used guitars are priced higher than others, or vice versa. And it almost always comes down to the number of hands the guitar has gone through. The more hands its gone through the lower the price gets. Too many people expect this kind of heavily used but good condition pricing for a like new guitar directly from the original owner. If they really knew the difference they might understand and realize that price usually reflects two things. Condition, and what the seller paid, which is always less when they traded it from a guy who got it used from a guy who got is used.

Dont even get me started on the guys who see a guitar with dings for ridiculously cheap then expect that is the set price for a mint like new one

 

[MoshJosh]

Well that's kind of what I'm saying, there isn't necessarily a need for explanation or increase in price. Assuming I can get good pictures, 2 guitars in the same condition are worth the same amount regardless of number of owners. At least to me

For example if I'm shopping for a Ibanez RG7420, go on ebay and find 2 I like in good condition but one cost 400 the other 550 but with one owner, I'm still buying the cheaper one because I don't think being the original owner warrants jacking up the price

 

[leonardo7]

Well that's kind of what I'm saying, there isn't necessarily a need for explanation or increase in price. Assuming I can get good pictures, 2 guitars in the same condition are worth the same amount regardless of number of owners. At least to me

For example if I'm shopping for a Ibanez RG7420, go on ebay and find 2 I like in good condition but one cost 400 the other 550 but with one owner, I'm still buying the cheaper one because I don't think being the original owner warrants jacking up the price

I wasnt looking at is as original owners jacking up the price, thats annoying as a buyer for sure, I was looking at is as 2nd or 3rd owners being able to lower the price cause the price has slowly trickled downward with each new owner. I agree that if condition is the same then there is no difference, I totally agree with that. But buyers shouldnt expect a heavily reduced price from original owners, but rather as buyers we should expect a guitar that hasnt been through as many hands which sometimes has affects that go beyond what you can easily see or what an inexperienced person might not disclose such as overall stability or little details such as scratches and minor fretwear, set up issues etc, all things that are less likely to be an issue when the guitar has gone through less hands.

When its an RG7420 that some guy has had for 15 years then its kind of weird when he wants close to the new price for it. I usually equate that situation to sentimental value.

 

[Grindspine]

I think number of owners is kind of trumped by condition.

This...

Who cares if a guitar has had one owner or three? In either case, it could have had immaculate care or terrible abuse.

 

[crg123]

I get what your saying completely as far as a knowledge of what you're purchasing. I do agree with other people that price should be dictated by condition since you could have an original owner who doesn't take take of his instruments versus 3 owners who are all OCD.

It's something that should be taken into consideration but for me I don't think that a guitar would degrade in value based on the number of owners. People who use that as a bargaining point to lower a sellers price as just trying to do anything in their power to get a deal, and probably wouldn't buy the guitar at the appropriate price anyway.


Edit:

Also, my point was to give the buyer a less confusing answer to why certain used guitars are priced higher than others, or vice versa. ..... If they really knew the difference they might understand and realize that price usually reflects two things. Condition, and what the seller paid, which is always less when they traded it from a guy who got it used from a guy who got is used.

Although this makes sense to me. It helps avoid flippers looking to cash in immediately at higher value than paid, which I guess is their own prerogative, but doesn't personally vibe well with me unless theres a substantial wait list or they just didn't like the instrument. Also it just serves as some other basic information for the background of the guitar you're purchasing, which I guess is pretty nice, not sure if its something you can monetize though

 

[leonardo7]

Looking at it from a sellers point of view Id suppose in the end its nobodies fvckin business if your the original owner or not

 

[Hollowway]

No, I agree with what you were saying in the original post. I think that the more owners a guitar has had the more chance it has not been taken care of as well. I have no statistical information to back this up, but warrantying cars, selling cars, and selling or warrantying other things do treat the number of previous owners as relevant. There are exceptions, but if I buy a guitar from you, and you are the original owner, I know you well enough to know that you haven't jacked up the truss rod, done a back job on a fret level, etc. But if you tell me you got this from a guy who bought it off another guy, I have no idea what's "under the hood," so to speak. So yeah, I personally DO like to know how many previous owners there have been, for very much the same reasons you mentioned.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

With how frequently some guitars get flipped around here and other boards if there is/was per-owner depreciation they'd literally have to pay someone to take it at this point.

I'm definitely in the "condition > number of owners" camp. No player cares about how many owners a mint guitar has, and I've seen just as many single owner guitars that have been beaten to a pulp.

I think a lot of it has to do with the mindset of the buyer. There's players and collectors and some folks that hover closer to the middle. The collector/flipper crowd seems to be far more concerned with trivial things that could arbitrarily effect the perceived value.

 

[HighGain510]

With how frequently some guitars get flipped around here and other boards if there is/was per-owner depreciation they'd literally have to pay someone to take it at this point.

I'm definitely in the "condition > number of owners" camp. No player cares about how many owners a mint guitar has, and I've seen just as many single owner guitars that have been beaten to a pulp.

I think a lot of it has to do with the mindset of the buyer. There's players and collectors and some folks that hover closer to the middle. The collector/flipper crowd seems to be far more concerned with trivial things that could arbitrarily effect the perceived value.

Yep. It doesn't matter if you're the first or fifth owner, if the condition sucks or your price is too high, the market will let you know.

OP - Bottom line appears to be that you're concerned that you're the first owner of all your stuff and you don't want to take a beating because you feel it should be worth more as someone is getting a guitar that was only owned by one person. If it's in good shape and the price is right, it will sell regardless of prior owner count.

If you're pricing items higher than the market will bear, either reduce the price and get it sold or hang onto it. Obviously people want to pay as little as they can for anything, regardless of whether it is new or used, so if you feel like your prices are fair and the market doesn't agree, telling people that you're the original owner likely isn't going to change their mind. Clearly if something is sitting for weeks/months at a time, the price is not what people are willing to spend on it, simple as that.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Prices usually reflect what one paid.

I think that logic is fundamentally flawed.

While it would be nice to price things based on what you want to recoup, that's not how the market works. Pricing is based on what the market will bear.

Here's an example: Say you buy an Ibanez JCRG2012, with a MAP of $3700 you want no less than $2900, as not to take too much of a bath. Plus, $800 off pretty great if you're in the market. Sound reasonable?

Here's the catch though, the nearly identical RG8420 sells for $2000 all day, even in MINT condition. Unless someone is REALLY attached to the name of the guitar, you're going to have a hard time convincing the market that they should pay $900 more for the JCRG2012.

As a seller you're welcome to use any pricing scheme you feel comfortable with, just don't expect the market to be as willing to help you not get hosed.

 

[leonardo7]

So you guys are saying that If a seller says "3rd owner, heavily gigged but mint and not a scratch and plays perfect" and wants the same price as the guy who's selling the same guitar and saying "original owner barely played totally mint", that you wouldn't mind buying the first one?

Im not asking in all seriousness, just bored at this point

No, I agree with what you were saying in the original post. I think that the more owners a guitar has had the more chance it has not been taken care of as well. I have no statistical information to back this up, but warrantying cars, selling cars, and selling or warrantying other things do treat the number of previous owners as relevant. There are exceptions, but if I buy a guitar from you, and you are the original owner, I know you well enough to know that you haven't jacked up the truss rod, done a back job on a fret level, etc. But if you tell me you got this from a guy who bought it off another guy, I have no idea what's "under the hood," so to speak. So yeah, I personally DO like to know how many previous owners there have been, for very much the same reasons you mentioned.

Exactly

Call me picky but I just dont like to buy guitars that have been passed around alot, I just dont know what wasnt disclosed to the current owner from the previous.

As long as people are able to distinguish that the more owners a guitar has had, the more likely the price has gone down because of that, and also the chances of it being further from mint increases. If your on a budget then its definitely the way to go I suppose. Just dont try and charge me as much for a heavily passed around guitar that I might expect to pay when buying from the original owner.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

So you guys are saying that If a seller says "3rd owner, heavily gigged but mint and not a scratch and plays perfect" and wants the same price as the guy who's selling the same guitar and saying "original owner barely played totally mint", that you wouldn't mind buying the first one?

Those are two different things though.

Let's flip it around: which would you go with "single owner, who is a heavily gigging artist who used it on tour" or "third owner who is a collector, who bought it from a collector"?

In that situation the single owner guitar is likely going to be in worse shape than something that's pretty much always been a display/collection piece.

I'll say it again: condition > number of owners.

Please tell me you get what we're saying. I know you're trying to grab some more value out of your current FS pieces, as Matt said, but this isn't too abstract a concept.

 

[leonardo7]

But why is the collector selling a mint guitar that he obviously can afford and bought as a collectors piece?

Trusting the seller is a huge part of it then. C'mon of course I get it

I was half joking when I said that. Im just sick of people PM'ing me to tell me that they want to buy a guitar, we set it all up, then they say "oh you know what, I can buy a similar guitar for $500 less so unless you wanna give me the same deal Im gonna have to pass". Im like wait what? You want this $4000 guitar for the same price as a used Carvin?

The worst is when someone has a guitar they paid $4000 for and wants to trade it for a guitar I paid $4500 for, but since Ive lowered the price on mine to $2900, they want me to put $1000 cash on top for the trade. Im like WTF

I am guilty of relating this thread to my own personal situation as a seller of course, but Ive been a buyer too. I swear alot of guys who havent played either think that Skervesen's are just as nice as Mayones and that mint guitars should be priced as low as ones with dings. Its annoying as a seller

This thread is getting heavily off point

 

[MaxOfMetal]

But why is the collector selling a mint guitar that he obviously can afford and bought as a collectors piece?

Tons of reasons, tastes change, life events happen, rarer pieces become available etc.

Would you not trust guys like Rich Harris or Brett because they have huge collections?

Trusting the seller is a huge part of it then.

I couldn't agree more. There are folks with great ratings on paper that wouldn't even dream of dealing with. That's just how it is, though it's usually not because of the guitars.

C'mon of course I get it

I'm still not sold. No pun.

I was half joking when I said that. Im just sick of people PM'ing me to tell me that they want to buy a guitar, we set it all up, then they say "oh you know what, I can buy a similar guitar for $500 less so unless you wanna give me the same deal Im gonna have to pass". Im like wait what? You want this $4000 guitar for the same price as a used Carvin?

The worst is when someone has a guitar they paid $4000 for and wants to trade it for a guitar I paid $4500 for, but since Ive lowered the price on mine to $2900, they want me to put $1000 cash on top for the trade. Im like WTF

Eh, then don't sell guitars on the Internet. Folks will always try the best deal.

As an occasional buyer, can't say this is making me want to deal with you.

I am guilty of relating this thread to my own personal situation as a seller of course, but Ive been a buyer too. I swear alot of guys who havent played either think that Skervesen's are just as nice as Mayones and that mint guitars should be priced as low as ones with dings. Its annoying as a seller

Complain more. This place, especially this section, isn't for self serving rants about X being better than Y.

This thread is getting heavily off point

I think it's been about why you believe your guitars are worth more from the beginning.

I mean, prior to this thread you put that you're the original owner of one of your FS guitars in old people approved CAPZ LOK.

I thought you learned not to fauxderate already.

 

[leonardo7]

Its not 100% about me as a seller though. I know that there are exceptions and condition is the ultimate ruler, but I swear every single guitar Ive gotten that was 3rd+ hand had some playability or set up issue or little weird flaws in the finish that werent disclosed. Im not saying thats always the case but it was the case with a Skervesen I got used, a Black water I got used, a KxK I got used plus at least one other incident, all in the past 5 years or so. I attributed it to the seller really only ever having had experience with heavily used stuff, therefore said flaws/issues were normal to them and not even really flaws/issues as they saw it, or didnt see it. In all those cases I never thought to ask the pertinent questions and it never occured to me to ask how many owners there may have been. Its just good as a buyer to be very picky and ask all questions that you need to. By doing this buyers will make smarter purchases.

The used guitar market is awesome right now though for people looking for good stuff for cheap. There are tons of options from many different sellers right now.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Its not 100% about me as a seller though. I know that there are exceptions and condition is the ultimate ruler, but I swear every single guitar Ive gotten that was 3rd+ hand had some playability or set up issue or little weird flaws in the finish that werent disclosed. Im not saying thats always the case but it was the case with a Skervesen I got used, a Black water I got used, a KxK I got used plus at least one other incident, all in the past 5 years or so. I attributed it to the seller really only ever having had experience with heavily used stuff, therefore said flaws/issues were normal to them and not even really flaws/issues as they saw it, or didnt see it. In all those cases I never thought to ask the pertinent questions and it never occured to me to ask how many owners there may have been. Its just good as a buyer to be very picky and ask all questions that you need to. By doing this buyers will make smarter purchases.

The used guitar market is awesome right now though for people looking for good stuff for cheap. There are tons of options from many different sellers right now.

Sounds like the sellers in those cases just didn't feel like disclosing the issues and wouldn't have done so even if they were the first owner.

 

[Adam Of Angels]

It comes down to the condition. I think acquiring new guitars is an addiction like almost anything else, and sometimes you have to sell perfectly good guitars to get something else. It happens literally all the time. From personal experience, I have sold probably 50 guitars I soon after regretted selling, just to get something else that I didn't like as much (something that also has nothing wrong with it)... That sort of experience will have you selling stuff to buy new stuff in no time flat. It's like "well, this is great, but Joe has that guitar for sale and I'm curious........" Basically, as long as a guitar is accurately described, and you agree on the price as a buyer or seller, it's all gravy, even if 30 guys have owned it. I have received a literal ton of guitars that weren't accurately described (condition-wise) over the years, and have missed a few minor flaws on a small number (despite what some people might go around saying) of guitars that I've sent dudes as well.. If you're dealing with a reputable guy, these sorts of issues are always easily straightened out, and rarely become a problem. Bottom line, I guess, is that the number of owners can be high for reasons not having to do with the guitar's quality, and so condition is always the deciding factor. Like anything else, if you have doubts or questions, ask before buying.

The other thing to consider is that one guy might be the original owner of a mint condition Les Paul he is selling for $2000, while another guy has his mint condition Les Paul, of which he is the 5th owner, listed for $1500 at the same time. Almost every buyer will opt for the cheaper one, unless they have the opportunity to play both for comparison and yours is better.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Like Max said, almost everybody is looking for the best deal possible, so if some guys are beating you up on asking prices, you can chalk it up to that.

 

[Sephael]

People are free to put that they are the original owner in selling description if they feel like it, if a buyer values that monetarily then that one statement is all your FS thread would need added to it to get the prices you think you should. But seriously no one should be expected to keep a pedigree of their gear. Several guitars I have I'm not the first owner of, but I couldn't tell you how many people owned them before me.

A legitimate first owner (who would have to state they were because of your preposed changes) pricing lower than you on the same item would still have the same effect of your higher priced gear not getting sold...and you'd have to find new requirements to petition for, oh I know we should have to state if an instrument has ever been in California because of the chance it could carry fungal spores and the health risks it could potential carry would lower its value. /sarcasm

Furthermore, someone could take a local pawnshop purchase and claim to be the original owner with about zero fear of being caught in the lie so yeah, your plan to hedge your prices based on the sentimentality of no one else having sold it before you is seriously flawed.