"Wood" this work...?

[Ram150023]

After extensive searching online and this forum... No clear cut answer to this question...

Is oak / poplar suitable for a guitar neck? or a combination of the two?

I was in "Hoe-depo" yesterday and was perusing the finer wood section... found very nice cuts of both woods and thought to myself "gee... what if I laminate these together, and possibly make a neck blank out of it?"

I ended up sandwiching / layering it like this...

Poplar / oak / poplar / oak / poplar

The poplar was darker than the oak... so the combo looked decent in it's raw state. I have read that oak is difficult to work with and the "open-ness" of the cells / grain... have to fill it to get it as smooth as one would need for a playable neck.

Also to take into account is this will be a neck through for the build... adding to the overall strength. In addition I would probably add carbon fiber support rods... or do a dual truss rod to help with stability.

Any and all input is welcomed and very much appreciated!!

Might have to add this as an entry into the HD build challenge hahaha

 

[Hywel]

Oak would be fine as a neck wood. It's very dense so be careful of neck dive but otherwise it wouldn't be a problem at all.

The poplar is very soft and not as stiff as woods like maple or some mahoganies but it's stiffer than spanish cedar which is sometime used in acoustics and classical guitars. I made a single piece headless neck from spanish cedar with a non-adjustable carbon fiber truss rod and it's holding up fine so far so if you laminate the poplar with the oak you'll probably be alright.

If you want to be safe maybe an oak/poplar/oak/poplar/oak laminate to get more of the stiffer wood in the neck.

The Wood Database is a really good site for looking up random stats about woods to get an idea about general species properties (and is where I'm basing most of my rambing about poplar from).

 

[Manton Customs]

I don't think I've seen Poplar used before, but it should work fine based on the numbers and especially if laminated.

Oak has been done before and works well if you don't mind a lot of grain filling, orientating the grain so that it runs like 1/4 sawn will minimise on the big massive grain caverns it can have when flatsawn.

Carbon fiber couldn't hurt, but a double action truss rod won't add any stability...just adjust-ability.

 

[Ram150023]

Oak would be fine as a neck wood. It's very dense so be careful of neck dive but otherwise it wouldn't be a problem at all.

The poplar is very soft and not as stiff as woods like maple or some mahoganies but it's stiffer than spanish cedar which is sometime used in acoustics and classical guitars. I made a single piece headless neck from spanish cedar with a non-adjustable carbon fiber truss rod and it's holding up fine so far so if you laminate the poplar with the oak you'll probably be alright.

If you want to be safe maybe an oak/poplar/oak/poplar/oak laminate to get more of the stiffer wood in the neck.

The Wood Database is a really good site for looking up random stats about woods to get an idea about general species properties (and is where I'm basing most of my rambing about poplar from).

Awesome! I will bookmark the site for any future inquiries I have with the combinations...

I don't think I've seen Poplar used before, but it should work fine based on the numbers and especially if laminated.

Oak has been done before and works well if you don't mind a lot of grain filling, orientating the grain so that it runs like 1/4 sawn will minimise on the big massive grain caverns it can have when flatsawn.

Carbon fiber couldn't hurt, but a double action truss rod won't add any stability...just adjust-ability.

See... theres another bit I don't quite understand... what the hell is quarter sawn vs. flat sawn? Im sure if I google it ill have the explanation... but how it applies to luthier for guitars...

Im not worried about filling the grain... anything good is worth doing and id like to experiment with something different.

And I apologize for my earlier typo... I would put dual truss rodS in the neck... not a dual action. It was supposed to be plural hahaha But something to help reinforce it to help with strength

And thank you for the input so far!

 

[Cloudy]

If I remember correctly I believe Parker use to make a lot of their necks out of poplar.

 

[Manton Customs]

Awesome! I will bookmark the site for any future inquiries I have with the combinations...



See... theres another bit I don't quite understand... what the hell is quarter sawn vs. flat sawn? Im sure if I google it ill have the explanation... but how it applies to luthier for guitars...

Im not worried about filling the grain... anything good is worth doing and id like to experiment with something different.

And I apologize for my earlier typo... I would put dual truss rodS in the neck... not a dual action. It was supposed to be plural hahaha But something to help reinforce it to help with strength

And thank you for the input so far!

Definitely have a good read up on quarter sawn versus flatsawn. There's lots of stuff out there on the subject. General consensus is that 1/4 sawn will be more stable across it's width and less likely to twist or cup. Though Fender have used nothing but flatsawn since the 50s and still do (not saying there aren't exceptions). Flatsawn is cheaper to buy also.

When creating a multi lam neck it's possible to orientate the grain so that at least some of your boards have a 1/4 sawn orientation by simply using the boards on their ends (so the width of the board becomes thickness of the neck blank). This isn't really true quarter sawn timber, but it gives the same effect. Have a read up on grain orientation for multi lam necks also .

Ah, I see...two truss rods . No, that won't add stability either. How many strings is the build going to have? Unless 8 or more you don't want to use two rods and plenty of people use one for 8s also!

 

[Ram150023]

Definitely have a good read up on quarter sawn versus flatsawn. There's lots of stuff out there on the subject. General consensus is that 1/4 sawn will be more stable across it's width and less likely to twist or cup. Though Fender have used nothing but flatsawn since the 50s and still do (not saying there aren't exceptions). Flatsawn is cheaper to buy also.

When creating a multi lam neck it's possible to orientate the grain so that at least some of your boards have a 1/4 sawn orientation by simply using the boards on their ends (so the width of the board becomes thickness of the neck blank). This isn't really true quarter sawn timber, but it gives the same effect. Have a read up on grain orientation for multi lam necks also .

Ah, I see...two truss rods . No, that won't add stability either. How many strings is the build going to have? Unless 8 or more you don't want to use two rods and plenty of people use one for 8s also!

Wow! I will definitely read up on it... Didnt think it was that involved for the different saw process.

Yeah... If u want to check my other thread "My build... Check in!" will lay out what im doing design wise for my 8 string.

I was only going to do dual trusses because i was worried about the strength that oak / poplar brought to the table. Instead of using a higher grade (which also equates to a higher $$) on a budget, first time build.

But per the comments so far, i guess the strength area isnt the worry

 

[Obstsalat]

remember. the strength of a woodconstruction is proportional to the thickness to the power of 3 (or even 4?).

So just make your neck 1 or 2mm thicker than usual and you could even do a full poplar neck no problem.

just make it a nice 50s tele style chunky baseball bat neck



edit: concerning carbon fibre inlays...I've seen some people inlaying those carbon rods without glueing them in. This can actually weaken your neck (except the rod sits REALLY tightly in the channel)!!
If you want to strengthen your neck, you have to epoxy/tightbond that rod all the way in, so the bond between rod and wood is at least as strong as the bond between wood fibres.

 

[Ram150023]

Welp... Ill have to add this to my build thread as well... But the lumber for the neck through has been purchased!

7 piece neck... 4 each 1/2" oak (dark) with 2 each 1/4" strips of poplar and 1 center 1/2" poplar... Let the experiment begin!

 

[DistinguishedPapyrus]

I have used Home Depot oak in a neck before for a multi lam wenge/oak neck. I spent a while sorting through their stock and selected the pieces with the straightest grain I could find, cut the strips and glued them up in a quarter sawn patern. It looked very nice, was plenty strong enough with no need for carbon rods or anything. I had no issues with that neck at all. But, I have never really tried poplar, personally I think it may be a little too soft for a neck but you may have better luck with it.

But back to the oak, consider this - Rick Toone has built a few multi lam American red oak necks before, not that I've ever played them but I'm guessing they play pretty well. So no major contraindications to the oak.

 

[pondman]

I've used Oak many times on laminate necks but never Poplar. I find it far too soft for even an unpainted body. There's no harm in having a go though.
I wouldn't use Poplar in the middle of the neck like you pictured, as the power
of an adjusted truss rod under tension will most likely cut into the soft Poplar causing problems.

 

[Ram150023]

I've used Oak many times on laminate necks but never Poplar. I find it far too soft for even an unpainted body. There's no harm in having a go though.
I wouldn't use Poplar in the middle of the neck like you pictured, as the power
of an adjusted truss rod under tension will most likely cut into the soft Poplar causing problems.

Damn... Welp the wood has been purchased and i was actually doing the dual truss rods over the oak strips... To help with both sides of the neck (treble and bass) nust incase the wood decides to get squirly...

I dunno... Like i said... The experiment!

 

[pondman]

Damn... Welp the wood has been purchased and i was actually doing the dual truss rods over the oak strips... To help with both sides of the neck (treble and bass) nust incase the wood decides to get squirly...

I dunno... Like i said... The experiment!

As long as the rods sit in the Oak it should be fine ( I thought you were going for one middle truss rod). You could always clear the neck with rattle cans for a tougher finish.

 

[scottro202]

I've got a homebuilt Ibby Fireman that has a poplar body. Tonally, it sounds very similar to alder. Based on that and what everybody else is saying I don't see why it wouldn't work for a neck.

 

[Ram150023]

Welp... all glued up and sitting with the clamps / press right now!!

As soon as I learn how to upload photos directly into the thread instead of as attachments...

All the build progress will be in my build thread...
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/luthiery-modifications-customizations/109972-my-build-check.html

 

[Ram150023]

I've got a homebuilt Ibby Fireman that has a poplar body. Tonally, it sounds very similar to alder. Based on that and what everybody else is saying I don't see why it wouldn't work for a neck.

Very nice!

I think what is in question is the structural integrity of the poplar in a neck.... but ive smooshed (technical term for the day...) it together with Oak... so that was the big question.

Plus its a neck through... crazy step up for a first time build I know... but go big or go home I say! hahahah

 

[DistinguishedPapyrus]

Well hey, plus side is that ANY wood is stronger in a multi laminate construction than as a single piece of stock. Think about ply wood... I bet it is possible (as an experiment) to build something even as ridiculous as a 6 string bass neck out of solid poplar if it was done right, with multiple thin laminates... seriously, like 15+ laminates.

In fact, I have been thinking about this for a while today and decided to google it a bit:

According to www.wood-database.com, the elastic modulus of different woods is the technical term for how much the wood bends when force is applied sideways along the grain, basically the biggest type of strain we put on different woods with what we do in this forum.

This is the data from the woods in question in this thread compared with some other commonly seen woods in this forum, in order from least to greatest:

Basswood - 1,460,000
African Mahogany - 1,537,000
Poplar - 1,580,000
Red Oak - 1,761,000
Hard Maple - 1,830,000
Wenge - 2,550,000
Purpleheart - 2,937,000

Based on that data alone, I'd say by all means go for it. Poplar has greater bending strength than African Mahogany which has definitely been used for a long time in guitar necks without much issue, and is not too far off from Hard Maple which also is a very common neck wood.

Also I learned something here, I am currently working with a purpleheart fretboard but I didn't know it was such a stiff wood, makes me wanna make a solid multi lam purpleheart neck... that thing would sustain for hours

 

[Ram150023]

Well hey, plus side is that ANY wood is stronger in a multi laminate construction than as a single piece of stock. Think about ply wood... I bet it is possible (as an experiment) to build something even as ridiculous as a 6 string bass neck out of solid poplar if it was done right, with multiple thin laminates... seriously, like 15+ laminates.

In fact, I have been thinking about this for a while today and decided to google it a bit:

According to www.wood-database.com, the elastic modulus of different woods is the technical term for how much the wood bends when force is applied sideways along the grain, basically the biggest type of strain we put on different woods with what we do in this forum.

This is the data from the woods in question in this thread compared with some other commonly seen woods in this forum, in order from least to greatest:

Basswood - 1,460,000
African Mahogany - 1,537,000
Poplar - 1,580,000
Red Oak - 1,761,000
Hard Maple - 1,830,000
Wenge - 2,550,000
Purpleheart - 2,937,000

Based on that data alone, I'd say by all means go for it. Poplar has greater bending strength than African Mahogany which has definitely been used for a long time in guitar necks without much issue, and is not too far off from Hard Maple which also is a very common neck wood.

Also I learned something here, I am currently working with a purpleheart fretboard but I didn't know it was such a stiff wood, makes me wanna make a solid multi lam purpleheart neck... that thing would sustain for hours

Thats good info. Rather interesting numbers. Makes me feel better about this combo haha.

I will say however... Now that everything is glued up... Granted the rough dimeaions are 48"L x 4"W x 3"H and will be thickness planed down to where i need ot for the neck through... Its probably 15lbs!!! Ill weigh it for giggles