Wound vs plain string tension

[bostjan]

How would they even wind the string like that?!

The closest I can imagine would be if they wrapped with round wire and then shaved the string six times so that the outside looked like a hexagon, but what would be the point in that either way? It seems like it'd be a nightmare from a comfort standpoint, and I don't see much advantage tonally. Structurally, I would imagine this would be worse rather than better unless the wrap was annealed or sintered in place.

Since we are opening up to Off Topic questions, evidently, has anyone else tried any of those more expensive wound strings, like the silver or gold ones. I had some hope that the higher mass per unit length would translate into crisper tone, but I was underwhelmed by my particular results.

 

[Oscar Stern]

How does filling up air gaps make the string stronger? When a string breaks, it's the core that goes first.

Filling up the air gaps reduces the likely hood of the string breaking. Actually the core wire is made out of the same steel as the plain steel strings to reduce the breakage. Wound Strings tend to be less stiff than their Plain Steel Counterparts (at the same gauge) because the thinner core wire & wrap wire makes them less stiff. Strings that are less stiff tend to respond to bending a lot more easily, & it gets rid of those irritating overtones.

 

[Chris Bowsman]

Filling up the air gaps reduces the likely hood of the string breaking. Actually the core wire is made out of the same steel as the plain steel strings to reduce the breakage. Wound Strings tend to be less stiff than their Plain Steel Counterparts (at the same gauge) because the thinner core wire & wrap wire makes them less stiff. Strings that are less stiff tend to respond to bending a lot more easily, & it gets rid of those irritating overtones.

A wound string is indeed less stiff, but it needs to be bent further to get the same pitch. There’s a reason most of the blues guys using 11s prefer a plain 18 for the G.

 

[ixlramp]

Filling up the air gaps reduces the likely hood of the string breaking.

Nah

 

[Oscar Stern]

A wound string is indeed less stiff, but it needs to be bent further to get the same pitch. There’s a reason most of the blues guys using 11s prefer a plain 18 for the G.

Generally speaking if it's less stiff & has less tension, bends would be easier cause you don't have to bend the string quite as far to get the same note anymore. Also players who use 11s would nowadays substitute the 18p with a 19w (that's common among Blues players) so that they would have better intonation.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Nah

Octave4Plus has cleverly solved that problem by adding a coating.

 

[Oscar Stern]

A wound string is indeed less stiff, but it needs to be bent further to get the same pitch. There’s a reason most of the blues guys using 11s prefer a plain 18 for the G.

Strings that are less stiff would generally respond to bending alot easier if they were wound in a special way.
As explained earlier, if we were to take a plain steel string and a wound string that were both the same gauge, they would look and feel very different. Wound strings have a smaller core wire and the ridges between the outer windings also help to give them more flexibility (and less tension) when compared to a plain steel string of the same gauge.

That’s why, when we are looking to replace a plain 3rd for a wound 3rd and get something that feels roughly the same, we usually opt for for a slightly thicker wound string in comparison (Just like StringJoy). If you took a set of 11s & substituted the 18p w/ a 19w then it would be easier to bend, & yes this Guitar String Calculator is correct that Wound Strings indeed have less tension than Plain Steel Strings:https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_guitar_tension_from_size.htm This chart allows you to get a Flexible Wound 3rd String that you can bend w/ ease. They actually recommend tuning the Guitar down a half step to Eb Standard (maybe D Standard) so that it becomes even easier to bend.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Generally speaking if it's less stiff & has less tension, bends would be easier cause you don't have to bend the string quite as far to get the same note anymore. Also players who use 11s would nowadays substitute the 18p with a 19w (that's common among Blues players) so that they would have better intonation.

Actually I have a similar string set. I actually restrung my Electric Mandolin w/ Thomastik Infeld 154 Precision Flatwound Mandolin Strings (Medium Gauge) & they have a Wound 2nd String which allows me to get a more consistent tone. The gauges are 10, 15w, 21, 33. The Wound 2nd String is very durable & can easily do bends because the core is made out of a Special Alloy w/ high elasticity & Durability. So if we want to have a Flexible Wound G String that we can easily do bends on w/o breaking it (or even so Guitar string sets w/ all Flexible Wound Strings, no Plain Steel) the steel core wire would have to be made out of a really special alloy that has a high elasticity & durability.

 

[Chris Bowsman]

Strings that are less stiff would generally respond to bending alot easier if they were wound in a special way.
As explained earlier, if we were to take a plain steel string and a wound string that were both the same gauge, they would look and feel very different. Wound strings have a smaller core wire and the ridges between the outer windings also help to give them more flexibility (and less tension) when compared to a plain steel string of the same gauge.

That’s why, when we are looking to replace a plain 3rd for a wound 3rd and get something that feels roughly the same, we usually opt for for a slightly thicker wound string in comparison (Just like StringJoy). If you took a set of 11s & substituted the 18p w/ a 19w then it would be easier to bend, & yes this Guitar String Calculator is correct that Wound Strings indeed have less tension than Plain Steel Strings:https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_guitar_tension_from_size.htm This chart allows you to get a Flexible Wound 3rd String that you can bend w/ ease. They actually recommend tuning the Guitar down a half step to Eb Standard (maybe D Standard) so that it becomes even easier to bend

Did you read what I said? Yes. A wound 18 has less tension than a plain 18. It just needs to be bent further to get to the same pitch.

Just curious, have you spent much real world time playing lighter wound strings or is it all on paper?

 

[Oscar Stern]

Did you read what I said? Yes. A wound 18 has less tension than a plain 18. It just needs to be bent further to get to the same pitch.

Just curious, have you spent much real world time playing lighter wound strings or is it all on paper?

They're very light gauge wound strings from D'addairo & Thomastik, & the core is made from a really special alloy to make bends easier. Oh I also realized something, if the string has less tension it doesn't have to be quite as tight which is supposed to mean you don't have to bend quite as far. Generally if they have less tension they actually offer less resistance to bending and vibrato which means they're supposed to have more response to bends. Why would it have to be bent further to get to the same pitch even though it doesn't need as much tension to tune up to that note? The Wound G Strings I played on (I'll get more soon) actually don't need to be bent quite as far due to the improved design.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Wound G's have a thinner core than a solid string so actually easier to bend, it says so right here:https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/gui... G's have a thinner,if you start bending them.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Did you read what I said? Yes. A wound 18 has less tension than a plain 18. It just needs to be bent further to get to the same pitch.

Just curious, have you spent much real world time playing lighter wound strings or is it all on paper?

Actually I forgot to tell you that the core shape is the biggest influencer. D'addario Strings have a Hex Core which can make them not as easy to bend. A Round Core Wound G on the other hand would be flexible, but what about a Flexible Hex Core or even better a Hexcore Hexwound? A Hexwound String is a Roundwound String shaped like a Hexagon (they wind the wrap wire around the core but the wrap wire forms into the shape of a Hexagon) & it's really flexible & strong best of both worlds. The corners are rounded off to make it softer

 

[ixlramp]

Why would it have to be bent further to get to the same pitch even though it doesn't need as much tension to tune up to that note?

Because that is the mechanics of 'stiffness'. Distance stretched and tension are different things.

If you replace a plain with a same gauge wound, the tension will be slightly lower, so there is less resistance when pushing it sideways, and less force is needed to push it sideways by a certain distance. But ... this is not what determines 'ease of bending', you have to also take in to account how far you need to push it sideways to get the desired pitch change.

'Ease of bending' is 'how easy it is to bend a particular pitch interval', because that is what really matters. Whether someone uses subtle vibrato or does a large string bend, they require a particular change of pitch.

With a wound, the core wire will be very much thinner, which means you have to push it sideways much much further to get the desired pitch change, therefore having to bend multiple strings. Despite the lower resistence of the string the result is very probably 'harder to bend'. The fragility of the core wire and the larger amount of stretching also makes it far more likely to break during a bend.

I expect you have experienced all this already.

As i wrote earlier, you should not make a comparison using a wound with less tension, because players require a particular tension for a string. The comparison of plain and wound bending behaviours has to be made with equal tensions.
Not that this changes the result, a lower tension wound has a thinner core, so is probably even harder to bend a particular pitch interval.

 

[ixlramp]

the core shape is the biggest influencer.

Nope, it makes very little difference. A hex core will have slightly less cross-sectional area, so acts like a slightly smaller gauge core wire. You're confusing flexibility for bending behaviour.

A Hexwound String is a Roundwound String shaped like a Hexagon (they wind the wrap wire around the core but the wrap wire forms into the shape of a Hexagon) & it's really flexible & strong best of both worlds. The corners are rounded off to make it softer

It does not exist I wrote a long post about this misinformation in this thread already https://sevenstring.org/threads/wound-vs-plain-string-tension.337378/post-5376490
How could you miss or forget that post? It seems you are not reading our posts.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Because that is the mechanics of 'stiffness'. Distance stretched and tension are different things.

If you replace a plain with a same gauge wound, the tension will be slightly lower, so there is less resistance when pushing it sideways, and less force is needed to push it sideways by a certain distance. But ... this is not what determines 'ease of bending', you have to also take in to account how far you need to push it sideways to get the desired pitch change.

'Ease of bending' is 'how easy it is to bend a particular pitch interval', because that is what really matters. Whether someone uses subtle vibrato or does a large string bend, they require a particular change of pitch.

With a wound, the core wire will be very much thinner, which means you have to push it sideways much much further to get the desired pitch change, therefore having to bend multiple strings. Despite the lower resistence of the string the result is very probably 'harder to bend'. The fragility of the core wire and the larger amount of stretching also makes it far more likely to break during a bend.

I expect you have experienced all this already.

As i wrote earlier, you should not make a comparison using a wound with less tension, because players require a particular tension for a string. The comparison of plain and wound bending behaviours has to be made with equal tensions.
Not that this changes the result, a lower tension wound has a thinner core, so is probably even harder to bend a particular pitch interval.

What if they refined the Formula so that it's a Flexible Wound G String?

 

[Oscar Stern]

Nope, it makes very little difference. A hex core will have slightly less cross-sectional area, so acts like a slightly smaller gauge core wire. You're confusing flexibility for bending behaviour.

It does not exist I wrote a long post about this misinformation in this thread already https://sevenstring.org/threads/wound-vs-plain-string-tension.337378/post-5376490
How could you miss or forget that post? It seems you are not reading our posts.

Actually this existsbut what if we extended the Scale Length of the instrument? It would allow the Wound G to respond to bends more easily.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Because that is the mechanics of 'stiffness'. Distance stretched and tension are different things.

If you replace a plain with a same gauge wound, the tension will be slightly lower, so there is less resistance when pushing it sideways, and less force is needed to push it sideways by a certain distance. But ... this is not what determines 'ease of bending', you have to also take in to account how far you need to push it sideways to get the desired pitch change.

'Ease of bending' is 'how easy it is to bend a particular pitch interval', because that is what really matters. Whether someone uses subtle vibrato or does a large string bend, they require a particular change of pitch.

With a wound, the core wire will be very much thinner, which means you have to push it sideways much much further to get the desired pitch change, therefore having to bend multiple strings. Despite the lower resistence of the string the result is very probably 'harder to bend'. The fragility of the core wire and the larger amount of stretching also makes it far more likely to break during a bend.

I expect you have experienced all this already.

As i wrote earlier, you should not make a comparison using a wound with less tension, because players require a particular tension for a string. The comparison of plain and wound bending behaviours has to be made with equal tensions.
Not that this changes the result, a lower tension wound has a thinner core, so is probably even harder to bend a particular pitch interval.

What if we just went up a gauge like change the 16p to a 17w? We get the same tension & improved intonation at the same time. The formula of the core wire would have to be different.

 

[Oscar Stern]

You'd have to wear gloves when playing Hex Wound Strings

 

[Oscar Stern]

Nope, it makes very little difference. A hex core will have slightly less cross-sectional area, so acts like a slightly smaller gauge core wire. You're confusing flexibility for bending behaviour.

It does not exist I wrote a long post about this misinformation in this thread already https://sevenstring.org/threads/wound-vs-plain-string-tension.337378/post-5376490
How could you miss or forget that post? It seems you are not reading our posts.

Actually I use Thomastik Strings which are very flexible because their core is made from a special alloy.

 

[Oscar Stern]

I doubt the Bogstreet strings have hex shaped windings. Their other acoustic string product is also called 'hex wound' but features a cutaway rendering (top left image in gallery) of a standard hex core string https://bogstreet.com/collections/a...itar-strings-phosphor-bronze-coated-hex-wound
'Hex wound' just seems to be an uncommon way of writing 'hex core'.

That hex shaped string image posted above is present on Russian, Ukranian and Japanese (not English) Wikipedia pages for 'String (music)' https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Струна_(музыка)

Translated text is:
"Strings with a hexagonal braid consist of a hexagonal core with a wire (usually round) tightly wound around it, which at the same time repeats the shape of the core. This solves the problem of the braid twisting around the core so it won't spin and slip out from under your fingers. Some say that the hex core improves the sound due to the tighter bond between it and the braid [6]. The disadvantage is that the relatively sharp edges of the string are less comfortable for the fingers and wear out the fretboard and frets even faster than the round braid. Hex strings are most commonly used on bass instruments (such as the bass guitar)."

The [6] citation link for that text translates to 'D'Addario FAQ: What are hex strings and why are they better?'. A dead link to an old D'Addario FAQ.
But this seems suspicious.
'Hex strings' is sometimes used as another way to write 'hex core'. I suspect the FAQ was probabaly referring to 'hex core' strings because it refers to 'hex strings' as if they are a common D'Addario product. I suspect someone read this, misunderstood it and added hex shaped strings to various wikipedia pages.
The text above reads like a misunderstanding of hex core strings.

So there is a lesson about believing Wikipedia.
I have never seen any other evidence of hex shaped strings, has anyone else?
Seems impractical as a string in several ways and very difficult to wind. The wrap wire, that is often quite thick relative to the core, would have to be very forcefully sharply bent around every corner, wrap wire tension during winding would not be strong enough to do this.

Actually the wrap wire would have to be made from a special alloy to make it work