Your Approach to Drum Programming?

[synrgy]

Ehhh, if your computer's good enough to run S2.0 or something equally RAM-gobbling, there shouldn't be an issue with latency. I'm running 4 gigs of RAM with a 2.4GHz processor on my recording computer, so it's pretty nice but not state-of-the-art or anything!

EDIT: Come to think of it, I've used the MIDI keyboard on my 2GB RAM, 1.8GHz laptop without any issues!

It's all about the sound card. His previous issue(s) with latency probably had something to do with ASIO settings, or the lack of ASIO drivers on that sound card. I have some relatively top-notch audio PCs, and the midi latency is still gonna suck ass if I try to use DX for the audio driver.

 

[yacker]

There's a lot of cool info in this thread. I'm by no means an expert, but I've been doing a lot of research on this subject lately and here's my take/what I've learned about a few things.

There is a lot of discussion on making programmed drums sound human. There have been some comments about randomizing velocities, offsetting hits, slight changes in tempo, and such. I think the most important thing to keep in mind here, is that you want to be in control of all of this, not let the computer dictate your music. Personally I'm attempting to create the sound of a very solid drummer with a bit of a human feel to trick the listener vs creating the sound of a sloppy drummer that sounds human to a fault. I'd much rather have something that sounds like a machine that is serving the song then a human who doesn't know that he needs to get louder during the build ups and such. So you really have to go in and tweak these things yourself....the computer doesn't know when things need to get louder or softer or the beat needs to be in the pocket or have a loose feel.

The use of a velocity sensitive keyboard is great advise for those who have the proper equipment and abilities. You need a keyboard that can actually sense subtle velocity changes, a low latency setup, and then a solid enough sense of rhythm to at least make all that worth while. So some people can pull that off and others will need practice and/or equipment upgrades.

As for some other methods of humanization. It's great to have a piece of software that was developed to help you sound human. EZdrummer is a great example of this. It allows for the use of randomized samples for similar hits. This doesn't mean random changes in velocity, so much as it just doesn't use the same hit for a certain drum repeatedly. Even if the velocity is virtually identical having multiple samples is a godsend because there's almost always something different in the sound (perhaps where the stick hit the drum...who knows). So programs offer that sort of feature are awesome. This helps reduce the machine gun effect without any effort needed on your part.

There was some mention about changing the tempo in the sequencer for humanization. This is also a great idea, but also needs to be controlled. Realistically speaking most solid drummers are going to stay fairly steady in tempo within a section of a song unless there's a musical reason to speed up or slow down. However, there's a pretty decent chance the the tempo will fluctuate when the song changes feel. I good example of this is would be when you move from a verse to a chorus perhaps. That can be a good point to add a slight change in tempo...usually so small the average listener wouldn't notice, but it registers subconsciously. Thats not to say transitions are the only point a tempo will change, but usually tempo changes within a certain parts of a song are aesthetic goals and not just something that happens at random...at least with a solid drummer, which is what I would aspire to over a sloppy one.

I suppose there's some other things I could mention, but I've probably over stayed my welcome, so those are my two cents.

 

[heineken_fretwalker]

I am a drummer, so this might be an annoyance, but if you dont understand anything let me know...

If you like a fill, steal one. Download a Guitar Pro/Powertab file, and copy the MIDI into something like Drumkit From Hell. Most VST drum modules should allow that.

I also use Guitar Pro to program my drums. It's taken a fair few years of using the program, but now I'm so used to the numbers system it uses that I'd never look back.

So a flow chart of my programming would be -

Write/Find a beat or fill -> Export to MIDI -> Import MIDI to DAW -> route the MIDI through a VST or RTAS Drum Module.

If you need any more explanation, I'll be happy to help

You, sir, are a God. I started doing a djent/8 bit project where I export my MIDI files from Guitar Pro. I was programming all the drums there, and I was hoping that would work when I start actually recording my own shit. Now I know it will, and I feel much better about life in general Thanks, bro!

 

[synrgy]

Presuming we're only discussing programming drums for rock/metal-ish stuff (IE *not* electronic music, which is a completely different ball of wax for me):

1. I like syncopation. That's just a stylistic thing, but the stuff I've always enjoyed the sound of usually has a kick drum that's doing exactly what a palm muted guitar riff is doing. Stuff like that is what I aim for most of the time.

2. I hear it in my head before I sequence it most of the time, which makes the whole thing a walk in the park. When that isn't the case, I noodle around with a shit ton of various midi breaks until I find something that's closer to what I'm looking for, then tweak as necessary.

3. I try to not program things that would be impossible to actually play. *Some* knowledge of drumming is required for this. Not a ton, but you take into account that at any given time there should only be 4 things happening simultaneously at most -- 2 hands and 2 feet.

4. I try to mix the drums from the perspective of the audience rather than the perspective of the drummer, in terms of panning individual kit pieces.

5. Remind myself that if I use a pre-programmed midi break and don't make any changes to it (like say, from DFH), I'm guaranteeing that somebody else already has a recording with my drums on it.

I seriously, SERIOUSLY, can not believe somebody neg-repped me for that post. REALLY?!

 

[xenophist]

I write the guitar riff, then I think up a drum beat in my head to go with that while still remembering where the song is going (is it getting more crazy or going to chill?). Then I export to WAV, record guitar to it, then repeat.

 

[hubbell1202]

Hmm, so I'm in this boat to. But, im just busy using the loops in DFH on EZD. But, I'm having an issue with laying in the fills,etc. and the way the timing switches up, just sounds choppy and doesnt flow. I bought the EZplayer sequencer, but I think its quite the...piece of garbage, and am looking for a more user freindly sequencer for it. I have Logic Express 7 and am barely getting used to it. I too pay close attention to the layout of songs from bands i like on Guitar Pro. But it never sounds solid or consistent. Or the beats being evenly distributed throughout. But, its difficult, cuz i font want to take too much from them...

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

This thread is full of wonderful information.

 

[Teaboy]

I am a drummer, so this might be an annoyance, but if you dont understand anything let me know...

If you like a fill, steal one. Download a Guitar Pro/Powertab file, and copy the MIDI into something like Drumkit From Hell. Most VST drum modules should allow that.

I also use Guitar Pro to program my drums. It's taken a fair few years of using the program, but now I'm so used to the numbers system it uses that I'd never look back.

So a flow chart of my programming would be -

Write/Find a beat or fill -> Export to MIDI -> Import MIDI to DAW -> route the MIDI through a VST or RTAS Drum Module.

If you need any more explanation, I'll be happy to help

I used to use Guitar Pro too. You do learn the numbers really quickly and it's very easy to write standard 4/4 type stuff there. But when it comes to more complicated patterns, a piano roll is so much easier.

After writing all my drum patterns in Cubase for a while, going back to guitar pro was so difficult. Although I still remember all the numbers perfectly, I find it hard to write off time stuff (e.g. double bass patterns that go on for longer than the bar).

Another example: let's say you're writing a song in 11/8 (which a recent song of mine is in). I have a 16th double kick on the first two beats, then another double kick on the 6th and 7th beat. In Cubase, you simply mark the bass drums where you want them, but in Guitar Pro you have to put the two double kick beats in, then 4 beats of rests, then the other two double kicks. then if you insert a snare beat, then your rests all get messed up.

 

[Andromalia]

I record a master guitar and bass track with a click, then add the drums, then redo the "real" guitar and bass without the click, only with the drums playing. I just leave some clicks at the beginning of the song, or a few hi hat hits for "one two three".

As to the drums themselves, I usually start with the hi hat then the bass then the snare. I usually quantize everything, record the other instruments and then come back when it's done to alter velocity and placement if needed. You can then make the drums feel organic while still being in sync with the guitar, since the guitar will be on and off by itself by a few milliseconds here and there. I also make one bass a little less loud than the other as drummers are supposed to have a "weak" foot. As I'm not a drummer I try to avoir kalashnikov like fills that only Vishnu can play, too.

Dowsside: it's time consuming as hell as I don't record that much stuff and am not doing it on instinct, I have to plan everything.

 

[guitarplayerone]

i play in the beat using guitar hero drums as a midi controller, or if i can't (too difficult) i'll program in the kicks on a snare pad, change the midi data to C1 etc, and now i have a bass beat. then i quantize appropriately, then i add basic cymbals and snares, then i quantize again.

this can be accomplished almost as well with a midi keyboard (or midi device of any sort), and much better with a real electronic drumset

 

[Internection]

just saw this thread. for anyone who uses GP5 to program their drums for the Drumkit from hell, im making key for all the numbers you need to put into GP so when you drag it into your DAW your pretty much good to go
i noticed when you make the beat using the GP5 numbers it doesnt match up, so hopefull it will help. its just a screenshot of the drumkit from hell, and the coresponding numbers for what part of the kit

 

[Fionn]

5. Remind myself that if I use a pre-programmed midi break and don't make any changes to it (like say, from DFH), I'm guaranteeing that somebody else already has a recording with my drums on it.

This is silly, think how many times the same part has been composed by different drummers! You can never be truly original, it has all been done before somewhere, if it serves the song, use it!

@ Synrgy : Most studios (In fact every one I've been to or worked at) will pan and mix drums from the perspective of the drummer. It psychologically makes the listener feel more central within the music.

Don't ask me why, because I'll be honest, I think your way makes more sense, but to make your mixes sound a little more rooted, you may want to try and invert your panning.

Unless it's a stylistic touch you're going for, something out of the norm.

In either case, I'd love to hear how that sounds man.

I always mix for audiences perspective, I don't get how the other way can make more psychological sense, its just the other way round!!! Kick and snare are pretty much centre anyway!!!

My favourite little trick which I've only ever seen Chimpy Paul do before is to program the drums with a MIDI keyboard (obviously one that's pressure-responsive, though).

You mean to say most people program with just a mouse? Man that must take for ever!!! I always use my MIDI keys its the only way to begin to compose metal style drums! Fills can be a bitch and about 70% of my fills are stolen or come from BFDs MIDI bank!

It's all about the sound card. His previous issue(s) with latency probably had something to do with ASIO settings, or the lack of ASIO drivers on that sound card. I have some relatively top-notch audio PCs, and the midi latency is still gonna suck ass if I try to use DX for the audio driver.

Actually this is not true, its the ASIO drivers thats for sure but it has to do with the CPU and FSB speed, there are no processors on most interfaces only converters, basically what casues latency is the buffer. Its like a little gate that holds data untill theer is enought to send a chunk throu, the larger the buffer the larger the latency, to run REALLY low buffer settings you need, fast CPU, large RAM, fast FSB, fast HDDs etc, however I can get mine down to 128 samples (it will go to 64 but it drops out more often) with a Core 2 Duo 2.66 with 3Gb ram. Once I start to add plugs i need to rasi it cause i get drop outs but for tracking its perfect. Any larger with the buffer settings and I can detect latency when doing both MIDI programming and guitar tracking, prolly around 20-30ms.

As for some other methods of humanization. It's great to have a piece of software that was developed to help you sound human. EZdrummer is a great example of this. It allows for the use of randomized samples for similar hits. This doesn't mean random changes in velocity, so much as it just doesn't use the same hit for a certain drum repeatedly. Even if the velocity is virtually identical having multiple samples is a godsend because there's almost always something different in the sound (perhaps where the stick hit the drum...who knows). So programs offer that sort of feature are awesome. This helps reduce the machine gun effect without any effort needed on your part.

There was some mention about changing the tempo in the sequencer for humanization. This is also a great idea, but also needs to be controlled. Realistically speaking most solid drummers are going to stay fairly steady in tempo within a section of a song unless there's a musical reason to speed up or slow down. However, there's a pretty decent chance the the tempo will fluctuate when the song changes feel. I good example of this is would be when you move from a verse to a chorus perhaps. That can be a good point to add a slight change in tempo...usually so small the average listener wouldn't notice, but it registers subconsciously. Thats not to say transitions are the only point a tempo will change, but usually tempo changes within a certain parts of a song are aesthetic goals and not just something that happens at random...at least with a solid drummer, which is what I would aspire to over a sloppy one.

This!

Whoops just previewed and this post is a bit too big so i'll shut up now!

 

[Andromalia]

"You mean to say most people program with just a mouse?"

I do, there is such a thing as copy and paste though.

 

[sol niger 333]

I choose how I want the riff to be shown off. What bass line I come up with also governs where the accents will fall on the drums. Sometimes a certain vocal accent can influence where a drum hit goes too. The riff and bass line are the two biggest governing factors. I can't play drums for shit and have very basic knowledge but I know how to accent guitar riffs through use of the rhythm section. Also what helps me is to air drum what I'm programming. If I need 5 arms I don't program it.

 

[Daemoniac]

I had a bit of a revelation of where I really want to go with my music percussion-wise the other day, so i'm going to see where that will take me.

I'm big into industrial though, and i was thinking that a lot of the sounds in my kind of music are really unnatural, harsh sounds put to very standard beats (generally 4/4, militaristic beats, occasionally something "flashy"). Thing is though, I really like the tone of really big sounding acoustic kits, so I've decided to try and take normal (albeit aggressive) drums and make them do really unnatural things (horrendously complicated/impossible beats, weird glitches and warping/manipulating of them and whatnot).

Means I get to keep the tone I like and add the weird harshness I like but in a different way.

All by mouse

 

[ddtonfire]

I always program drums before I record any other part. I can always go back and change it and it's a lot more fun to play to than a click track (though I usually program a scratch track along whatever guitar part I'm recording). I point-and-click in Logic's Piano Roll. I try to keep it as human as possible, though I've seen some drummers do some pretty inhuman things. Subtle velocity differences in drum beats and accented notes can go a long ways and make it feel a lot more natural and thus believeable/realistic.

I never, ever use preprogrammed MIDI beats, I like to think that my music is more unique than that I always mix from the perspective of a right-handed drummer, it's more natural to air drum to when you're doing tremendous tom fills.

 

[jymellis]

i program a hi hat or crash as a metronome. the i record guitar and or bass. then i go back and program more drums to the guitar i just recorded to the cymbol that is gonna stay in the song. got the i dea by noticing most metal has some sort of cymbal hit , to time, most of the time. made it so i can play guitar the way i want, not conforming my playing to my horrible beat making. but the other way around.

 

[chaosxcomplex]

Awesome stuff from everyone here.

My personal preference in the process is to record scratch tracks first (flesh out the song), then program the drums and then re-record guitars once the drums are done. I do this to get the emotion from playing with the dynamics of the drum tracks as opposed to the staleness of the click. Not necessary perhaps, but I like it that way.

^This