Your thoughts on exotic fretboard woods

[thedarknightshreds]

I so want a guitar with a Bois de rose fingerboard. I was going to use it on a build but due to export laws, I doubt that will be happening any time soon..
Bois de Rose, dalbergia maritima from Griffin Exotic Wood

 

[Microtonalist]

I completely disagree.

The fingerboard is a major structural component of your neck, so choosing the right or wrong one can make or break your instrument. The fact it is so thin means that making the correct choice is even more important as there's less room for error.

if you have a soft fingerboard, it's not going to stop your neck from moving around. It's not going to hold your frets in place. Fingerboards should be quartersawn (although some timbers there are exceptions to this rule) to add to this stability.

There is a very good reason why ebony and rosewood are the bread and butter of fingerboards. They have decades long track record of stability and durability.

You mention truss rod as if it offers strength or support. The truss rod does neither of these. It has one job, which is to offer relief, meaning if your neck pulls up or back, the truss rod is adjusted to counter this. That is its only purpose. If you want to stiffen the neck, then carbon fibre rods do this. Not the truss rod.

Well, I totally understand what you mean, and believe me I really don't want to start an argument. However

the words "truss rod" are based on the idea of strength, as in a building. Martin guitars used to have nonadjustable ones. For strength.

Classical guitars don't traditionally have one. Why? Because the necks are big and strong (including a much thicker fingerboard) relief is dealt with during the build process.
As the trend for thinner and thinner necks increases in the classical guitar market, some makers are starting to put truss rods in. Why? Because they're worried about the strength of the neck.

When replacing the strings on an electric guitar with a much higher guage than it was set up for, a truss rod adjustment may be required, as you mentioned, to keep the proper relief. The truss rod is quite clearly a force of strength helping to hold the strings at this point, otherwise the adjustment would be pointless.

Finally, if what you're saying is true then the old school Ibanez wizard neck doesn't need a truss rod any more than a classical does. Go ahead, be my guest. Make a neck that thin, maple and rosewood, no truss rod or reinforcing. I guarantee you will have problems with "relief" at the very least.



Anyway, you are totally correct that Rosewood and Ebony are great woods, no dispute there my point was just that there are a great many woods which weren't as readily available/not imported at all that are going to be viable alternatives.

And I do agree that stability is important. Stiffness, too but not a major factor

 

[Microtonalist]

The protective finish on a maple board doesn't stop wear...it just keeps the maple from getting dark and dirty looking. The finish itself actually ends up wearing away on an old neck anyhow. A (good quality) maple board with no finish will wear just as long as any rosewood board will.

Yeah, you could be right

Some of the rosewood 'boards I've seen have become more pitted than the other two just because people's nails got caught in the more open grain

However, my point still stands because all the European guitar makers back in the 1800s and before had maple and didn't use it.

Rosewood (ON AVERAGE) is still harder than Maple, and the only reason guitarists/guitar makers compare them as equals is because they happen to have been used for the same component.

 

[demonx]

Rosewood (ON AVERAGE) is still harder than Maple, and the only reason guitarists/guitar makers compare them as equals is because they happen to have been used for the same component.

Rosewood's and Ebonies on average is just under twice the hardness of maple.

I tend to steer customers away from maple as a board as it is no-where near as suited as the others, however in my opinion it just scrapes through a meeting minimum requirements, but not optimal. If however they insist, I will use it as I have done many times.

Re: the other persons comment on the clear coat over maple boards, yes, it offers only visual protection (until it wears through) as without it maple turns grey and horrible pretty fast after just standard playing. Darker colours tend not to show the oils etc from general play as much.

 

[HaMMerHeD]

CA is a fantastic finish for maple boards, and a hell of a lot more durable than lacquer or polyurethane.

 

[TuffyKohler]

Classical guitars don't traditionally have one. Why? Because the necks are big and strong (including a much thicker fingerboard) relief is dealt with during the build process.

The tension on a classical neck with nylon strings is only a fraction of what steel strings put onto a neck.

Simply put, Classicals don't need a truss rod. Unless you want to be able change the relief. Period. They are NOT for strength.

'truss rod' does NOT 'mean' strength...

In engineering, a truss is a structure that "consists of two-force members only, where the members are organized so that the assemblage as a whole behaves as a single object".[1] A "two-force member" is a structural component where force is applied to only two points.

OK, enough of that tangent...

There are enough kinds of wood that are good for fretboards, lots to choose from.

My stripey ferretboard...

I've got these sitting in my shop waiting their turn.

Purpleheart, Bloodwood, Redheart, Paduak, Gonco Alves?, Lacewood, wenge, ebony

 

[Humbuck]

Exactly. No neck needs a truss rod for strength...the wood is plenty strong. It is there for the adjustability for action and playability...period.

 

[Microtonalist]

The tension on a classical neck with nylon strings is only a fraction of what steel strings put onto a neck.

Simply put, Classicals don't need a truss rod. Unless you want to be able change the relief. Period. They are NOT for strength.

'truss rod' does NOT 'mean' strength...

In engineering, a truss is a structure that "consists of two-force members only, where the members are organized so that the assemblage as a whole behaves as a single object".[1] A "two-force member" is a structural component where force is applied to only two points.

OK, enough of that tangent...

I make classical guitars for a living, you don't need to tell me about those.

I didn't mention string tension because a set of 9s isn't so different to a high tension classical set.


Anyway, you just said it yourself-a classical neck doesn't need a truss rod, because it's strong enough all on its own. And yes, that is in relation to the light string tension as you mentioned.
I have absolutely no idea how you think that supports your argument.

Old school truss rods only adjust one way, against the pull of the strings.......
And yeah, it's about relief, because the neck would pull forward otherwise under the string tension and there would be too much.

Hey, I just thought, you guys must be really scared of fully scalloped 'boards


Back OT those are some really nice 'boards you got there

Any of you neck strength supporters tried the African Lignum Vitae I mentioned?
The piece I had was short grained as hell and it was still stiffer than the equivalent in ebony

 

[demonx]

Any of you neck strength supporters tried the African Lignum Vitae I mentioned?

I'll pass.

I'm not in the habit of hunting down timber that are on the endangered species list just to experiment with.

The whole genus is amongst CITES listed timbers.

 

[Microtonalist]

I'll pass.

I'm not in the habit of hunting down timber that are on the endangered species list just to experiment with.

The whole genus is amongst CITES listed timbers.

I feel ya.
However, iirc African Lignum Vitae isn't the same genus, just a similar wood.
Pretty sure the stuff I bought was even FSC

Could be wrong about that tho, I do know that it was just being sold perfectly normally and cheaply here in the uk on eBay when I bought it a couple of years ago. I certainly didn't search it out.


It is really ugly though I got lucky with a buyer who didn't want to go down the ebony route

 

[demonx]

I feel ya.
However, iirc African Lignum Vitae isn't the same genus, just a similar wood.
Pretty sure the stuff I bought was even FSC

Could be wrong about that tho, I do know that it was just being sold perfectly normally and cheaply here in the uk on eBay when I bought it a couple of years ago. I certainly didn't search it out.

It's possible then that you bought it before it was added.

For example a few years back I imported some Cocobolo billets, not long after they were added to CITES. It's not that I sought out an endangered species as it wasn't at the time of purchase, but it does mean now that any guitars I build with it I cannot freight out of the country.

 

[demonx]

I make classical guitars for a living, you don't need to tell me about those.:

After reading back through the thread I noticed this comment which explains a lot.

I also build guitars for a living, electrics are my bread and butter using hand carving combined with CNC processes, however I also build acoustic guitars using more traditional hand built methods.

One thing I notice between electrics and acoustics is there are vast differences on the structural importance a of the build components and various focus points.

Things that are super important in a acoustic/classical mean very little in a electric and vice versa.

For example, we can talk about the importance or lack of importance of body timbers, yet if I'm arguing electric and you're arguing acoustic, then it's apples and oranges. I'll be saying flat sawn as quarter would be a waste of timber (imagining a 40-45mm thick body) and you'll be getting angry saying it has to be quarter sawn (imagining a 2.5mm top set).

When I'm building an electric neck compared to an acoustic neck, the electric is a much more focal point for importance as it is much longer, in baritones it can be about twice or more the length of an acoustic, tension effects the longer neck much differently than it does on the acoustic, where you can get away with much softer timbers without the elastic effect you'll get on an electric.

So yes, it might also pay to put a link in your sig to your webpage.

 

[Microtonalist]

After reading back through the thread I noticed this comment which explains a lot.

I also build guitars for a living, electrics are my bread and butter using hand carving combined with CNC processes, however I also build acoustic guitars using more traditional hand built methods.

One thing I notice between electrics and acoustics is there are vast differences on the structural importance a of the build components and various focus points.

Things that are super important in a acoustic/classical mean very little in a electric and vice versa.

For example, we can talk about the importance or lack of importance of body timbers, yet if I'm arguing electric and you're arguing acoustic, then it's apples and oranges. I'll be saying flat sawn as quarter would be a waste of timber (imagining a 40-45mm thick body) and you'll be getting angry saying it has to be quarter sawn (imagining a 2.5mm top set).

When I'm building an electric neck compared to an acoustic neck, the electric is a much more focal point for importance as it is much longer, in baritones it can be about twice or more the length of an acoustic, tension effects the longer neck much differently than it does on the acoustic, where you can get away with much softer timbers without the elastic effect you'll get on an electric.

So yes, it might also pay to put a link in your sig to your webpage.

Absolutely, I make classical mostly but I want to expand my acoustic steel string side of things as well. I've made/set up/modified electrics but that's not my business. I'm actually making a mandolin right now (on commission) so that's cool

I am very well aware of the constructional differences. Previous posts were made in relation to electrics and I continue to stand by what I said.

That excludes the Maple finish bit obviously, I'm only just using the stuff now for the first time (on a fretboard I mean, classical players only really like ebony) so I can't speak from experience. Quite happy to be corrected on that, thanks for being understanding.

I'd never use anything softer than maple, I think maybe some of you guys overreacted to my opinion a little bit. I'm not about to use any pathetic scrap as a fretboard.



Anyway, it's all good in the end, I mean when I make a guitar, (whatever type it may be) it works. When you make a guitar, it works.

can we all be friends now?

 

[Microtonalist]

It's possible then that you bought it before it was added.

For example a few years back I imported some Cocobolo billets, not long after they were added to CITES. It's not that I sought out an endangered species as it wasn't at the time of purchase, but it does mean now that any guitars I build with it I cannot freight out of the country.

Sucks to hear about your cocobolo man.

I thought I would just clear up the Lignum vitae business.
From a quick Google search it's a different genus to the "real" Lignum vitae from South America, and is apparently still available with an FSC stamp.

Must be one of those old trading name mistakes, a bit like how Port Orford Cedar is really a Cypress

 

[demonx]

Must be one of those old trading name mistakes, a bit like how Port Orford Cedar is really a Cypress

A bit like when I was in a furniture store recently and the owner is telling me how bad of a timber Mahogany is, how it is unreliable and the furniture will fall apart. I said in a polite way that he's misinformed and blah blah blah, after a long winded argument/discussion his info just wasn't adding up and after a few questions I discovered he was referring to Malaysian Mahogany as this is where all the furniture his business was importing came from. With that little bit of very ....ing important info it all made sense to me, Malaysia doesn't have a Mahogany, what they do have and what they call Malaysian Mahogany and what they build all their cheap piece of crap export furniture out of is Meranti, which is not a Mahogany at all.

 

[HaMMerHeD]

...telling me how bad of a timber Mahogany is, how it is unreliable and the furniture will fall apart...

Them's fightin' words.

 

[Microtonalist]

A bit like when I was in a furniture store recently and the owner is telling me how bad of a timber Mahogany is, how it is unreliable and the furniture will fall apart. I said in a polite way that he's misinformed and blah blah blah, after a long winded argument/discussion his info just wasn't adding up and after a few questions I discovered he was referring to Malaysian Mahogany as this is where all the furniture his business was importing came from. With that little bit of very ....ing important info it all made sense to me, Malaysia doesn't have a Mahogany, what they do have and what they call Malaysian Mahogany and what they build all their cheap piece of crap export furniture out of is Meranti, which is not a Mahogany at all.

 

[MoonJelly]

They'll call anything mahogany these days.
African Mahogany=Khaya (not a mahogany)
Mountain Mahogany=Cercocarpus (more in the ironwood family)
Phillipine/Malaysian Mahogany=Meranti (see above)
Santos Mahogany=Cabreuva (not even related)
Swamp Mahogany=Eucalyptus (not mahogany)
Sapele Mahogany=Sapele...this one, and Khaya, are fairly close relatives but not the same genus (Swietenia)
Sipo Mahogany=Utile...same story....

The same thing happens with rosewood. While most of these examples are an excellent substitute/analog for mahogany, meranti is certainly not a prime choice for hardness/stability.

But anyway, on the original topic, you can use many species of woods for a fretboard, electric or acoustic, whether a true rosewood/ebony or whatever. There are also many you would choose to avoid.

 

[HaMMerHeD]

They'll call anything mahogany these days.
African Mahogany=Khaya (not a mahogany)
Mountain Mahogany=Cercocarpus (more in the ironwood family)
Phillipine/Malaysian Mahogany=Meranti (see above)
Santos Mahogany=Cabreuva (not even related)
Swamp Mahogany=Eucalyptus (not mahogany)
Sapele Mahogany=Sapele...this one, and Khaya, are fairly close relatives but not the same genus (Swietenia)
Sipo Mahogany=Utile...same story....

The same thing happens with rosewood. While most of these examples are an excellent substitute/analog for mahogany, meranti is certainly not a prime choice for hardness/stability.

But anyway, on the original topic, you can use many species of woods for a fretboard, electric or acoustic, whether a true rosewood/ebony or whatever. There are also many you would choose to avoid.

Swietenia is not the only variety of mahogany. Meliaceae is the mahogany family, and any plant in it can be accurately called mahogany.

Khaya, Sapele, and Sipo (and spanish cedar) are all in the Meliaceae family.

 

[bostjan]

Don't forget the "Toona" genus of trees: "Indian Mahogany," "Chinese Mahogany," etc., which yields timber similar to red cedar. It's a hardwood (being that the trees are not evergreen), but can be easily damaged by hard objects (like cedar).

Maybe that's just the issue with "tonewoods" or whatever we call them or don't call them these days. When you say "maple," you aren't being nearly specific enough, yet, when people refer to a timber as "rock maple," colloquially, they may often be mistaken or speaking merely from assumption, and the timber might actually be just anything other than soft maple. Same goes for "rosewood," "mahogany," "ebony," and who knows what else. Because of this, there is a great deal of confusion at the consumer level.