A couple questions about best scale lengths for tunings, string gauges, and tension

[torchlord]

Thanks. I have been using the stringjoy tension calculator or the kalium one, and have been buying custom sets for the last year or 2 since no one sells string sets designed for drop tuning (at least below drop C). I have been running about 21 lbs on every string, no clue if its ok for the 2 highest strings cause i dont use them lol. I kinda want to move to 22 lbs tbh, at least for the lowest 3 strings; but after reading all these comments i might try to brute force get better/stronger first and only go bigger if that doesnt work. At least for the guitars tuned above 8 string tuning

Depending on how good your bridges and guitar necks are at handling the extra thick strings might be something to consider. I know my Ibanez Universe's neck wasn't up to the task. I accidentally broke the neck on it right behind the locking nut when it landed on the ground when it fell forward from my guitar stand which split the back of the neck right behind the locking nuts in a V shape partially. When I took it to the Luthier to get it re-glued he called me later and said the neck was warped a bit and was having a hard time getting it straight, he recommended regluing the fretboard with something called Resetting or fretboard setting (could be misrecalling the technique name). This likely happened because I was using some heavy gauges for the 25.5 scale. I decided to not use such heavy gauges on that guitar after getting it fixed.
On my Rondo Reaper, the cheaper Floyd Special bridge saddle for the thickest string couldn't handle the thickest string and the bolt threads wound up stripping out. I also had the bridge posts collapse due to the extra tension of the heavier gauges. I've since upgraded those parts to better metal versions.
So going heavier can cause issues with the guitar in less obvious ways if it doesn't have good hardware, or isn't made good enough. Just something to consider.

 

[DECEMBER]

There are some calculators out there but from what I understand you will have better accuracy if the calculator is for the strings it was designed for, since many are made in different ways and using different materials which can raise or lower the lbs per pull for the tension test.
That Stringjoy calculatar even says this on the page "

Why Are Your Numbers Different than Other String Tension Calculators?​

These numbers are based on our own measurements of Stringjoy strings. They will be different than other companies' measurements because we make our strings differently than other companies.

I also want to note that any string tension calculator is working off of averages. Strings are man-made, and as such small variations are always present from one string to another which will cause micro-changes to how a string responds."

I said it "is a tension calculator for Stringjoy strings." But you can still use it to get a general idea of the difference in tension between gauges. If you like 10-46 for E standard and want to go to drop-C with the same tension, you can use the calculator to find the gauges that have the same tension in drop-C as 10-46 does in E. With a different string brand, the tension won't be exactly the same, but the difference between a 46 and 54 is proportionally the same with any brand/type of string.

 

[kamello]

Yeah i figured there had to be some reason people are having like 14lbs of tension for the low C# on a 9 string. I just hate the idea of having to play different strings differently. Thats the struggle i have right now, my low C can only handle me picking like 2/3 of my normal picking force. Going between the 2 strings is really hard for me and not enjoyable at all

it is what it is man, one of the things I like about extended range guitars is that they indeed lead you towards different styles of riffing.

in Periphery's case it's fun to see, most of their 7-8 string material is really chuggy/single note riffing, and their 6 string material is really chord based

 

[InfinityCollision]

Depending on how good your bridges and guitar necks are at handling the extra thick strings might be something to consider. I know my Ibanez Universe's neck wasn't up to the task. I accidentally broke the neck on it right behind the locking nut when it landed on the ground when it fell forward from my guitar stand which split the back of the neck right behind the locking nuts in a V shape partially. When I took it to the Luthier to get it re-glued he called me later and said the neck was warped a bit and was having a hard time getting it straight, he recommended regluing the fretboard with something called Resetting or fretboard setting (could be misrecalling the technique name). This likely happened because I was using some heavy gauges for the 25.5 scale. I decided to not use such heavy gauges on that guitar after getting it fixed.
On my Rondo Reaper, the cheaper Floyd Special bridge saddle for the thickest string couldn't handle the thickest string and the bolt threads wound up stripping out. I also had the bridge posts collapse due to the extra tension of the heavier gauges. I've since upgraded those parts to better metal versions.
So going heavier can cause issues with the guitar in less obvious ways if it doesn't have good hardware, or isn't made good enough. Just something to consider.

Those "extra thick strings" the OP talked about in the original post are about the same as a set of 11s in standard. They're not doing anything meaningful to the neck. A little heavier than the most here like but really not that heavy, nor is a 64 "gigantic".

What I want to know re: intonation issues is, what's the exact issue? Are your notes bending notably sharp when you hit them hard, or are they consistently out of tune and you can't bring them in tune despite any setup adjustments?

 

[RandomPolishGuy]

Honestly just use the stringjoy calculator. The guy who said the massive strings are the problem has the right idea but didn't list the solution. My guess is the intonation issue is specifically from the high ass action. File your nut, lower your action, and you're good. I use a 12-74 Custom Stringjoy set for Drop A# on a 25.5 and have no issues. I used to use an 80 for my 24.75in scale scehcter for Drop A# a la Lee Malia and even then had no issues after a proper set up. I personally prefer about 16lbs of tension on the plain strings and about 19lbs on wound with my 6th about 23 or so. I wouldn't recommend any less than 14lbs or more than 18lbs on plain and no less than 16lbs or more than 22lbs on wound and a wound 3rd is absolutely necessary for anything lower than C imho and try to keep your plain strings 2-4lbs LESS in tension than your wound or it won't feel balanced. Make sure to adjust your truss rod after it's had a day or 2 to adjust to the string tension as well and you should be golden

 

[woochyna]

When I was younger I used heavier strings thinking that'll sound heavier while in reality it was a mudfest and my guitars were really difficult to intonate.Discovered that in the middle of a recording session, but managed to salvage it. I went for lighter strings which improved my tone, the feel of the neck and intonation with the only con being the added fret buzz from the stings being softer thus oscilating more. Not really an issue as I don't play clean so it's kinda hidden behind the drive, but that could be a deal breaker to some.

Now, I see people going heavier than I ever had for the same tunings, so I'm definitely in the "go lighter" corner even before making my own adjustments 15+ years ago.
Can't help but feel weird for using strings I do and reading what you guys are using, but here we go:

For my 24.75" and some of my 25.5" guitars set to D standard I use 10-52. Can go to drop C... in general, not much difference feel-wise, but I don't use shorter scale guitars for anything lower than D as it is where I start feeling and hearing differences.

The rest of my 25.5" guitars are either set to drop H or drop B ( B and A# respectively for American folk) with sets of 10-60. So yes, the same 10 that goes on my 24.75" guitars in D ends up on guitars that get tuned lower. That is a 1/2 to a full step down, which is not much plus I change styles of playing depending on the tuning (higher strings don't get that much use when going lower).

Recently I made a frankenstein baritone (Fender subsonic neck on a strat body, one pickup, one pot... basically a Tom Delonge model but in black and a 27" scale) and used the same 10-60 set for drop B. Very different feeling compared to a 25.5", more low end (that I tamed with a more screamy type od a pickup and an EQ) and a new guitar case as the guitar won't fit in my older ones.

I had to change the way I play as some positions became really difficult, but the music of the band I play this guitar in is not demanding, so it's really fun to just chug.

Frankly, this combination of the 27" scale and the 10-60 set feels the best to me. I was tempted to try lighter strings, but I think there's no need and going heavier won't bring anything good.

 

[DECEMBER]

that could be a deal breaker to some.

100% deal-breaker! Fret buzz drives me absolutely mad, overwhelmed with rage and despair. Makes me want to smash the guitar and just give up. Makes it impossible to get a nice pretty clean tone, especially when you need it bright and use chorus and delay.

 

[Rubbishplayer]

So many variables here, but let's start with some basics.

1. Before looking at gauges, make sure your guitar fretboard is optimal. Your buzzing issues are either due to some high frets, a high nut, a poorly-adjusted truss rod or all of the above. I see a lot of lower price guitars in your collection and most guitars under $1000 need work on frets. Get a fret rocker and check for high frets and, if you find some, get a luthier (not a guitar tech) to level your frets and file your nut to the right level. They'll also set your guitar up for the string gauge you tell them, which will help with action and intonation.

2. Remember that there is a sweet range for each scale length/string gauge, outside of which your tone will suck. This is most obvious with short scale basses or 1/2 size electric guitars, where the temptation is to use a heavier gauge string to make up for the flappiness of using normal gauge strings on a shorter scale. Experience has shown me that you can't go above a certain gauge for a given scale without getting intonation problems which, as @RandomPolishGuy pointed out, will be exacerbated by a high action.

3. I assume you are adjusting your truss rod for each new gauge of string you try? I hope so! Incorrect relief on a neck will force you to raise your strings higher off the deck.

4. Technique. Like me, many guitarists start off playing way harder than necessary, thus requiring a higher action to avoid buzz. After many years of playing, my right hand touch has become far lighter as I found that "hard" does not always equate to "agggressive". I learned this from a Flamenco player, who showed me that with a super low action you get on a Flamenco guitar, you need far less energy in your right hand than you think to get an "aggressive" sound, something that is much more apparent on a fine acoustic instrument than an electric. Indeed, playing too hard will simply compress the sound and increase buzz, not result in a louder/more aggressive sound. Instead, listen to your tone and practice dialing-in the aggression precisely. I know this may be hard right now, but it'll get far easier the more you practice with an optimal set-up.

5. Exploiting these changes. Once you have the optimal set up and technique, you will find that your need for heavier gauge strings will diminish. This will allow you to select strings based on tone (i.e. in the sweet range) and be comfortable with them. For you, that'll result in lower tension, with real benefits not only for tone, but also your right hand tension. Releasing that tension will enable you to play faster. You will also find it easier to know when going up in scale length is warranted. Both my sevens are 25.5" and I use a standard D'Addario light top/heavy bottom string set (10-52) with a 64 7th string and I am more than happy with it for drop A. However, I know going lower would benefit from a longer scale length, but I've no desire to go there (yet).

In summary, it's all a matter of getting the basics right and focusing on your tone. Many novices make the mistake of thinking that the tone from an electric guitar comes from the pickups, the amp and effects, but remember that it is your touch on what is essentially an amplified acoustic device which has the most impact. To end, I'll leave you with a paraphrased quote from Carlos Santana, who was asked (I think in Guitar Player magazine) how much of his sound comes from his fingers and how much from his gear:

"25% comes from my fingers: the rest come from my thighs!"

 

[Poul Winther Knudsen]

I'll just leave this here:


A# tuning, 12-60 set, scale length most likely 24-5/8 (25.5 at the very most but I think that's only his custom made ones). Setup and discipline go a long way

The Ironbird scale length is 25.5" which - trust me - is massively different from the Gibson length.
Personally I would get a different tech though. The guitar is tuned to A# alright, which puts the E in the 6th fret, not 5th, which would obviously be just standard B.

I agree about the NYXL though. They have a bit higher tension for the gauge but more importantly they have much more attack and stay fresh at least 10 times longer. (Not even exaggerating). So when you can keep them for much longer it's just a nice benefit that they also don't break. And they don't. Honestly, I never looked back since first trying them, there's no way I would ever use anything else.

That said, I couldn't work with 60 in that scale length in A#. In fact I use 80's in A standard in 25.5".

 

[JimboLodisC]

Tension is up to the player, so it doesn't matter what numbers anyone gives you unless you have the exact same preference for tension. Some people like 15 lbs, some people are closer to 25 lbs for that low string.

I will keep it short by saying you can find out what tension you like on your current instruments and easily transpose that same feel over to a different instrument with one of those online calculators. Tension hinges on 3 things: scale length, pitch, and string gauge. If you have a target tuning, you can put that in first and then choose a scale length. Switch the gauges around until it matches your preferred tension. If you don't like the gauges needed to hit your preferred tension, then change the scale length and re-calculate.

 

[X784]

Those "extra thick strings" the OP talked about in the original post are about the same as a set of 11s in standard. They're not doing anything meaningful to the neck. A little heavier than the most here like but really not that heavy, nor is a 64 "gigantic".

What I want to know re: intonation issues is, what's the exact issue? Are your notes bending notably sharp when you hit them hard, or are they consistently out of tune and you can't bring them in tune despite any setup adjustments?

Both to some extent. I make the open string flat in order to get the 5th or 7th fret to be in tune. If i push just a bit too hard it goes sharp, but since i can only single string notes due to dissonance I dont press as hard naturally so its not that big of an issue. My real issue is very bad intonation overall on that string. realistically I only play the first 7 frets, so basically right now I have to decide which note do i want to be in tune of those 7 and then the rest lower are flat and the rest higher are sharp. its only slightly sharp or flat but you can notice it

 

[X784]

Tension is up to the player, so it doesn't matter what numbers anyone gives you unless you have the exact same preference for tension. Some people like 15 lbs, some people are closer to 25 lbs for that low string.

I will keep it short by saying you can find out what tension you like on your current instruments and easily transpose that same feel over to a different instrument with one of those online calculators. Tension hinges on 3 things: scale length, pitch, and string gauge. If you have a target tuning, you can put that in first and then choose a scale length. Switch the gauges around until it matches your preferred tension. If you don't like the gauges needed to hit your preferred tension, then change the scale length and re-calculate.

yes I am aware of this. however, 30" is the max available for a guitar as far as I can see. and anyhow its already less enjoyable than say 27". so even if I could get a 34" bass guitar with 6 strings at guitar spacing it would not be worth it cause itd be wayyyy harder and less enjoyable to play. and I knew I was doing something wrong when I couldnt get drop G to intonate on a 30" guitar, when the whitechapel guys have drop G intonated on les pauls

 

[X784]

When I was younger I used heavier strings thinking that'll sound heavier while in reality it was a mudfest and my guitars were really difficult to intonate.Discovered that in the middle of a recording session, but managed to salvage it. I went for lighter strings which improved my tone, the feel of the neck and intonation with the only con being the added fret buzz from the stings being softer thus oscilating more. Not really an issue as I don't play clean so it's kinda hidden behind the drive, but that could be a deal breaker to some.

Now, I see people going heavier than I ever had for the same tunings, so I'm definitely in the "go lighter" corner even before making my own adjustments 15+ years ago.
Can't help but feel weird for using strings I do and reading what you guys are using, but here we go:

For my 24.75" and some of my 25.5" guitars set to D standard I use 10-52. Can go to drop C... in general, not much difference feel-wise, but I don't use shorter scale guitars for anything lower than D as it is where I start feeling and hearing differences.

The rest of my 25.5" guitars are either set to drop H or drop B ( B and A# respectively for American folk) with sets of 10-60. So yes, the same 10 that goes on my 24.75" guitars in D ends up on guitars that get tuned lower. That is a 1/2 to a full step down, which is not much plus I change styles of playing depending on the tuning (higher strings don't get that much use when going lower).

Recently I made a frankenstein baritone (Fender subsonic neck on a strat body, one pickup, one pot... basically a Tom Delonge model but in black and a 27" scale) and used the same 10-60 set for drop B. Very different feeling compared to a 25.5", more low end (that I tamed with a more screamy type od a pickup and an EQ) and a new guitar case as the guitar won't fit in my older ones.

I had to change the way I play as some positions became really difficult, but the music of the band I play this guitar in is not demanding, so it's really fun to just chug.

Frankly, this combination of the 27" scale and the 10-60 set feels the best to me. I was tempted to try lighter strings, but I think there's no need and going heavier won't bring anything good.

tbh with the tone im using i dont really think string gauge will matter much sound wise. my 25.5" at drop C with like a 58 or 60 gauge string sounds to me basically exactly the same as my 30" at drop G with a 70, both with emg 81s. my primary focus is playability, with tone and intonation probably tied for second place

 

[X784]

So many variables here, but let's start with some basics.

1. Before looking at gauges, make sure your guitar fretboard is optimal. Your buzzing issues are either due to some high frets, a high nut, a poorly-adjusted truss rod or all of the above. I see a lot of lower price guitars in your collection and most guitars under $1000 need work on frets. Get a fret rocker and check for high frets and, if you find some, get a luthier (not a guitar tech) to level your frets and file your nut to the right level. They'll also set your guitar up for the string gauge you tell them, which will help with action and intonation.

2. Remember that there is a sweet range for each scale length/string gauge, outside of which your tone will suck. This is most obvious with short scale basses or 1/2 size electric guitars, where the temptation is to use a heavier gauge string to make up for the flappiness of using normal gauge strings on a shorter scale. Experience has shown me that you can't go above a certain gauge for a given scale without getting intonation problems which, as @RandomPolishGuy pointed out, will be exacerbated by a high action.

3. I assume you are adjusting your truss rod for each new gauge of string you try? I hope so! Incorrect relief on a neck will force you to raise your strings higher off the deck.

4. Technique. Like me, many guitarists start off playing way harder than necessary, thus requiring a higher action to avoid buzz. After many years of playing, my right hand touch has become far lighter as I found that "hard" does not always equate to "agggressive". I learned this from a Flamenco player, who showed me that with a super low action you get on a Flamenco guitar, you need far less energy in your right hand than you think to get an "aggressive" sound, something that is much more apparent on a fine acoustic instrument than an electric. Indeed, playing too hard will simply compress the sound and increase buzz, not result in a louder/more aggressive sound. Instead, listen to your tone and practice dialing-in the aggression precisely. I know this may be hard right now, but it'll get far easier the more you practice with an optimal set-up.

5. Exploiting these changes. Once you have the optimal set up and technique, you will find that your need for heavier gauge strings will diminish. This will allow you to select strings based on tone (i.e. in the sweet range) and be comfortable with them. For you, that'll result in lower tension, with real benefits not only for tone, but also your right hand tension. Releasing that tension will enable you to play faster. You will also find it easier to know when going up in scale length is warranted. Both my sevens are 25.5" and I use a standard D'Addario light top/heavy bottom string set (10-52) with a 64 7th string and I am more than happy with it for drop A. However, I know going lower would benefit from a longer scale length, but I've no desire to go there (yet).

In summary, it's all a matter of getting the basics right and focusing on your tone. Many novices make the mistake of thinking that the tone from an electric guitar comes from the pickups, the amp and effects, but remember that it is your touch on what is essentially an amplified acoustic device which has the most impact. To end, I'll leave you with a paraphrased quote from Carlos Santana, who was asked (I think in Guitar Player magazine) how much of his sound comes from his fingers and how much from his gear:

"25% comes from my fingers: the rest come from my thighs!"

1. thats a good point. Ive never looked at the frets on any of my guitars. I also havent had issues until I started tuning below drop A. as far as price goes, there are no 6 string guitars capable of C1 tuning that are over 1k anyway, except the 29" solar. I guess i can take my 30s to have the frets checked, not sure I want to mess with that

2. i have never had an issue with my tone sucking, only lack of a good eq and amount of distortion. I am currently using biax fx 2 and am as near to a perfect tone as I have ever been. still not enough chug tho lol but im scared of using a 3rd overdrive

3. i have never adjusted a truss rod in my life. i always check every once in awhile and they always have a slight bit of relief regardless of anything ive ever done. I think ive only seen it get worse once but I dont remember what I did cause I def didnt mess with the truss rod. that was a long time ago and i think i was doing like drop F# on a 25.5" lololol

4. I play hard cause its fun, natural, and sounds better. I can hear in songs when the guitar player is babying the strings, and I dont like it. also I am currently being held back by speed of picking and endurance. picture playing Bleed with full 3 note power chords. you have to pick sorta hard to move through all 3 strings that fast

5. my only reason for heavier strings is playability, as in tension for picking fast and not bending by accident when doing 3 note drop tuned power chords. there are no other positives in my mind for using them. setup is irrelevant to this, or at least it seems so correct me if Im wrong


I am very aware tone have everything to do with how you play. thats one of the main reasons I dont want light strings. itll sound terrible when i baby them lololol, even tho itll sound a bit worse cause theyre thicker. Also that guitar player you mentioned doesnt have his pickups 1mm under the strings, using 2 overdrives at half volume each going into a metal amp at 1/3 gain with 2 eqs with the cabs turned off. The rules for clean and "dirty" tones are slightly different compared to "extreme" metal tones lol

 

[X784]

100% deal-breaker! Fret buzz drives me absolutely mad, overwhelmed with rage and despair. Makes me want to smash the guitar and just give up. Makes it impossible to get a nice pretty clean tone, especially when you need it bright and use chorus and delay.

agreed. in my case tho, when im doing pretty fast palm mutes and the buzz rings out while muted and sounds way worse than what youre talking about lololol

 

[WARBICH]

sitting here reading this playing a 25.5 scale Bich in drop F with a .074
I wonder if it's that I'm not picky, or if I am used to low tension from playing in B with not even Slinky since the early 2ks, or if it's the amp sims and eqs I use to clean up the sound? maybe my Bich is just magic...

 

[X784]

Honestly just use the stringjoy calculator. The guy who said the massive strings are the problem has the right idea but didn't list the solution. My guess is the intonation issue is specifically from the high ass action. File your nut, lower your action, and you're good. I use a 12-74 Custom Stringjoy set for Drop A# on a 25.5 and have no issues. I used to use an 80 for my 24.75in scale scehcter for Drop A# a la Lee Malia and even then had no issues after a proper set up. I personally prefer about 16lbs of tension on the plain strings and about 19lbs on wound with my 6th about 23 or so. I wouldn't recommend any less than 14lbs or more than 18lbs on plain and no less than 16lbs or more than 22lbs on wound and a wound 3rd is absolutely necessary for anything lower than C imho and try to keep your plain strings 2-4lbs LESS in tension than your wound or it won't feel balanced. Make sure to adjust your truss rod after it's had a day or 2 to adjust to the string tension as well and you should be golden

i also think this is at least a major contributing factor to the issue. However, i have carefully filed the nuts on all my guitars so that the bottom of the strings is where it was with the thinner one. the action is high due to the bridge. I just keep raising it till it doesnt buzz anywhere on the fretboard. tbh i kinda wanna redo them so that it only doesnt buzz on the 12th and under, since I literally never play above the 12th. I currently am at 20-21 lbs on my lowest strings on all my guitars

wound third my 30s only have a wound 6th lolololol

 

[X784]

sitting here reading this playing a 25.5 scale Bich in drop F with a .074
I wonder if it's that I'm not picky, or if I am used to low tension from playing in B with not even Slinky since the early 2ks, or if it's the amp sims and eqs I use to clean up the sound? maybe my Bich is just magic...

you have super loose strings, and probably dont pick hard at all and dont try to play bleed with full 3 note power chords. nothing wrong with that at all btw, you do you. but i wanna do me. also my tone sounds the almost the same at E standard as in drop E, no changes needed lol

nice profile pic by the way. my first real guitar was a trace warbeast. it has served me well, and will keep doing so. B.C. Rich will always have a special place in my heart

 

[X784]

it is what it is man, one of the things I like about extended range guitars is that they indeed lead you towards different styles of riffing.

in Periphery's case it's fun to see, most of their 7-8 string material is really chuggy/single note riffing, and their 6 string material is really chord based

obviously the key of the song greatly affects the "vibe" of the song. but if we wanna talk just plain feel wise my favorite tuning and string gauge is drop B. I would not be tuning lower than drop F# except that my favorite band's highest tuning is Eb (not the Eb youre thinking of)

 

[WARBICH]

yes, I pick lightly but I do play 3 string power chords. also a little clank, is part of the sound. I would not be happy with bad intonation and you wont get that right without smaller gauges. maybe since you cut your own nuts read up on cutting them to compensate for some intonation.
google "
compensated nut"