Any modelers / captures / software that model the knobs of an amp?

[Hollowway]

If I were to want to buy an amp - let’s say a Mesa Mark IV - I’d have access to a couple of channels and a bunch of knobs what have a range and interaction. Some of those controls would be named the same as many other amps (gain, treble, middle, bass, presence, etc) and some might be unique to that amp (lead drive, for instance).

Is there anything that exists that duplicates this in software or hardware so I could adjust the knobs of the modeled amp and have it behave like (or somewhat like) the real thing? I know with captures I can capture a particular setting I like, but I’m not aware of there being any sort of capture tool that sweeps through all knob settings so you get an adjustable capture or model. I know the interactions between the multiple controls would complicate it significantly, too.

I have avoided buying an Axe FX / Kemper / QC /Tonex just because I have read that the more you adjust the settings from the neutral part the farther away you get from how the amp would really respond. I mean, it’s not like I need a full range of all the settings, but I just cannot figure out which option out there is the most tweakable while still mimicking the amp.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

If I were to want to buy an amp - let’s say a Mesa Mark IV - I’d have access to a couple of channels and a bunch of knobs what have a range and interaction. Some of those controls would be named the same as many other amps (gain, treble, middle, bass, presence, etc) and some might be unique to that amp (lead drive, for instance).

Is there anything that exists that duplicates this in software or hardware so I could adjust the knobs of the modeled amp and have it behave like (or somewhat like) the real thing? I know with captures I can capture a particular setting I like, but I’m not aware of there being any sort of capture tool that sweeps through all knob settings so you get an adjustable capture or model. I know the interactions between the multiple controls would complicate it significantly, too.

I have avoided buying an Axe FX / Kemper / QC /Tonex just because I have read that the more you adjust the settings from the neutral part the farther away you get from how the amp would really respond. I mean, it’s not like I need a full range of all the settings, but I just cannot figure out which option out there is the most tweakable while still mimicking the amp.

The current batch of first tier modelers capture that pretty damn well. Is it a perfect 1:1, eh probably not, not for every amp anyway. But I don't think you'd really be missing anything, minus the vibe of having a specific switch for whatever, which it seems is pretty important to some folks.

Profilers are different, and yeah, the Kemper still sounds a little wonky if you do too much tweaking on an already made profile. But that's sort of the tradeoff for making a literal perfect snapshot of whatever convoluted rig you want.

Grab a used FM3 for <$1k and give it a try. Some love it, some hate it, but at least then you'll know.

Same with a Tonex, for like $400.

 

[tedtan]

Kemper has started modeling the gain and tone stack of amps to allow you to tweak a profile of an amp and have it respond the same as the amp would. They call it Liquid Profiling and it works really well, the catch being that it is only available for certain amps. Hopefully they continue adding amps, as this gives you the best of profiling and modeling in one.

 

[MatrixClaw]

You are not going to get something like this with a capture. I don't even see how it would be possible, but maybe those Liquid Profiles from Kemper are closer. Fractal actually models the components of the circuit, so their modeling technology definitely does this. I remember shooting out my FM3 with several of my real amps and they sounded very close with similar settings.

 

[budda]

@MaxOfMetal the tonex is component modelling too? Very cool.

But yeah current gen fractal is my rec here (who is surprised ).

 

[Crungy]

I haven't done a one-to-one with my 2XL+ to a Triple Rectifier as I don't own a Triple Rectifier, but copying knob settings from the physical amp sounds pretty good to me. (I actually tried it after watching @Guitarjon 's Korn video and I thought it sounded pretty close to that!)

I'd guess if Tonex and Fractal are modeling components that's probably as close as you can get to the real thing. I'd also assume with time that modeling and refinement will only improve.

 

[CleansingCarnage]

Apart from the others mentioned, Helix also does component level modeling.

 

[Jon Pearson]

The Fractal stuff does this really well. The Helix stuff is good too, but I don't think they replicate the same level of controls that Fractal does. Fractal is pretty much the most obsessive of the modelers, so anytime you are wondering what is "closest" to the real deal, it's probably going to be them.

 

[budda]

I haven't done a one-to-one with my 2XL+ to a Triple Rectifier as I don't own a Triple Rectifier, but copying knob settings from the physical amp sounds pretty good to me. (I actually tried it after watching @Guitarjon 's Korn video and I thought it sounded pretty close to that!)

I'd guess if Tonex and Fractal are modeling components that's probably as close as you can get to the real thing. I'd also assume with time that modeling and refinement will only improve.

Friend got an ultra years ago and we a/b’d with his 2ch triple. We were able to get them indistinguishable to our ears. Ymmv etc.

There’s iirc a sticky post on the fractal forum about why a model with all knobs at noon wont sound like Your Amp with knobs at noon (its component tolerances).

 

[Crungy]

Friend got an ultra years ago and we a/b’d with his 2ch triple. We were able to get them indistinguishable to our ears. Ymmv etc.

There’s iirc a sticky post on the fractal forum about why a model with all knobs at noon wont sound like Your Amp with knobs at noon (its component tolerances).

I'd believe it!

 

[Deadpool_25]

Fractal models stuff down to the tapers of the pots.

 

[Hollowway]

I may just have to grab a fractal after all. I just wish they had some more bass models.

I was super close to buying the Tonex big pedal, but it looks like they have several patches of the same amp, so I figured they were captures, not models. Anyone have a Tonex? Can I bring up one of those patches and adjust the pedal controls without it getting wonky? What I’m tying to avoid is spending an inordinate amount of time trawling through their site and others looking for captures of an amp at the settings I want. Specifically for bass, as I have a decent number of actual guitar amps.

 

[CleansingCarnage]

I may just have to grab a fractal after all. I just wish they had some more bass models.

I was super close to buying the Tonex big pedal, but it looks like they have several patches of the same amp, so I figured they were captures, not models. Anyone have a Tonex? Can I bring up one of those patches and adjust the pedal controls without it getting wonky? What I’m tying to avoid is spending an inordinate amount of time trawling through their site and others looking for captures of an amp at the settings I want. Specifically for bass, as I have a decent number of actual guitar amps.

I have a Tonex. I pretty regularly adjust profiles to my liking and to my ear they sound great, but I think it would be safest to say that the profiles probably don't respond exactly like the real amps they're based on would once you start tweaking knobs. I don't really care about that as long as it sounds good. I also vastly prefer user made models to the IK Multimedia models in most cases, though I haven't tried all of the official ones.

I think no matter what you go with, you should probably be prepared to do a lot of trawling and/or tweaking. The parameters in the Fractal stuff are intensely dense and you could spend forever adjusting things and creating patches that are just how you like, and the same is true with many other modelers. I don't really mind searching through the profiles for Tonex because you can just go through playing a few notes until you find something with a base sound you like and tweak it pretty minimally from there.

If you want to try Tonex out and see if you like how it sounds, you can install the standalone software for free and check it out as much as you want. It's exactly the same technology and same sound as what's in the pedal. With the free version you're limited to a maximum of 20 downloads for user created profiles, but you can test anything you want without limitations in the download browser window.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Anyone who likes the Tonex better than the Helix? I am a Helix user btw, looking to go somewhere else.

 

[CleansingCarnage]

Anyone who likes the Tonex better than the Helix? I am a Helix user btw, looking to go somewhere else.

I think the Helix is pretty great as a device and personally I think one of the best ways to use a Helix or a Tonex is by slaving them together. Remember that Tonex only does amp, cab and reverb profiling, so you don't get all the effects and routing options you do with the Helix. In terms of sounds, I think the Tonex can pull away with some better stuff but if you ever want to compare them yourself you can try the Tonex plugin out for free like I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

@MaxOfMetal the tonex is component modelling too? Very cool.

But yeah current gen fractal is my rec here (who is surprised ).

No, Tonex is a profile based unit, and the cheapest "good" one, hence the reference to try one.

Folks tend to be either model or profile people, so I think trying both is the best way to go.

 

[MatrixClaw]

I may just have to grab a fractal after all. I just wish they had some more bass models.

I was super close to buying the Tonex big pedal, but it looks like they have several patches of the same amp, so I figured they were captures, not models. Anyone have a Tonex? Can I bring up one of those patches and adjust the pedal controls without it getting wonky? What I’m tying to avoid is spending an inordinate amount of time trawling through their site and others looking for captures of an amp at the settings I want. Specifically for bass, as I have a decent number of actual guitar amps.

Yeah, the bass selection is unfortunate... But there are a lot of guitar amps in there that sound great with bass and, when I used to do live sound for a band that used Axe FXs, they just ended up not using an amp at all. That's typically how I record bass - just smack a ton of compression on there, a little dirt and some EQ and you're in business.

ToneX is definitely not modeling and is captures. EQ adjustments on it are definitely more natural than I remember them being on the Kemper when I owned one. I'm sure Kemper has gotten much better since release though in that aspect. The EQ will definitely not react the same as the real amp though, so I'd expect to use multiple captures of the same amp if you want different tones. It's not uncommon to buy a ToneX pack and they have like 10+ captures of one type of tone, because the EQ just doesn't have a wide enough range to change the tone correctly, this is really the downfall of captures to begin with, though.

Anyone who likes the Tonex better than the Helix? I am a Helix user btw, looking to go somewhere else.

I think ToneX has a more realistic feel and probably CAN sound better. It's undoubtedly more accurate, but the Helix software and hardware are infinitely better. The effects on the ToneX pedal are also very basic compared to Helix.

I think it really depends on what you want from the two. ToneX, for me, excels with captures of my own amps, dialed in how I would set them, through IRs that accentuate the qualities I was looking for when I captured the amp. It's great for recording. Helix is way better for building sounds from scratch and the overall experience doing so is way better. I personally hate going through profile after profile to find one I like. On my Stomp, I just pick an amp I know sounds close to what I want, adjust the EQ and I'm done.

Where the two shine together is the fact that Helix is pretty limited in amp models and if you're using an HX Stomp, you only have a certain amount of DSP/blocks you're working with. If you're looking for something outside those amps or you're constantly running into times where you don't have enough DSP because you're using heavy Reverbs/Delays/Pitch Shifting, offloading that to the ToneX is super helpful.

 

[budda]

Thing to do in fractalland that i think we generally forget about: swap the tonestack (which is actually the preamp iirc).

Try some amps with an svt or mesa strategy 400 tonestack and you’re gonna find more options, especially for recording and not needing in-the-room volume. Run a looper, try stuff and save any potentials as a new preset.

Iirc my main p-bass tone is a portaflex with a DI blend, strategy 400, svt or portaflex/rockerverb blend. I only remember this because i finally played it again last week

 

[boogie2]

If I were to want to buy an amp - let’s say a Mesa Mark IV - I’d have access to a couple of channels and a bunch of knobs what have a range and interaction. Some of those controls would be named the same as many other amps (gain, treble, middle, bass, presence, etc) and some might be unique to that amp (lead drive, for instance).

Is there anything that exists that duplicates this in software or hardware so I could adjust the knobs of the modeled amp and have it behave like (or somewhat like) the real thing? I know with captures I can capture a particular setting I like, but I’m not aware of there being any sort of capture tool that sweeps through all knob settings so you get an adjustable capture or model. I know the interactions between the multiple controls would complicate it significantly, too.

I have avoided buying an Axe FX / Kemper / QC /Tonex just because I have read that the more you adjust the settings from the neutral part the farther away you get from how the amp would really respond. I mean, it’s not like I need a full range of all the settings, but I just cannot figure out which option out there is the most tweakable while still mimicking the amp.

The fractal Audio products have a performance page that does exactly that. I’ve found their dynamic response to be very “amp like” and much less like a single snapshot of a given tone.

 

[Cpt_Adama]

If I were to want to buy an amp - let’s say a Mesa Mark IV - I’d have access to a couple of channels and a bunch of knobs what have a range and interaction. Some of those controls would be named the same as many other amps (gain, treble, middle, bass, presence, etc) and some might be unique to that amp (lead drive, for instance).

Is there anything that exists that duplicates this in software or hardware so I could adjust the knobs of the modeled amp and have it behave like (or somewhat like) the real thing? I know with captures I can capture a particular setting I like, but I’m not aware of there being any sort of capture tool that sweeps through all knob settings so you get an adjustable capture or model. I know the interactions between the multiple controls would complicate it significantly, too.

I have avoided buying an Axe FX / Kemper / QC /Tonex just because I have read that the more you adjust the settings from the neutral part the farther away you get from how the amp would really respond. I mean, it’s not like I need a full range of all the settings, but I just cannot figure out which option out there is the most tweakable while still mimicking the amp.

Your talking about a capture amp as opposed to a modeler. Two completely different technolgies. A modeler will try to emmulate an amp in knobs and settings throughout it's full range, think Axe-Fx, Amplitibe, etc. A capture amp is a picture of that amp at a certain specific setting, and it's not emulating the amp, so any changes you make to the setting will change the picture, think Kemper, ToneX, etc. Sounds like you want a modeler not a capture system.