Clinton Hatred Origins?

[Shoeless_jose]

Sorry if this doesn't need its own thread or if it opens up past wounds since we are finally past Trump BUT hoping for some clarity.

Many attributed Trump's 2016 victory to a deep seeded hatred of Hilary Clinton.

While I personally have always found her to be an absolute black hole of charisma I am curious where all the animosity comes from.

I'm in Canada so may have missed some of the origins of it, but even one American friend I know any time the Clinton's were mentioned he would call Hilary the devil talk about how there are so many bodies buried to cover up what they and their foundation have done ect. And this is a guy I get along great with and is overall "normal"

Is it all just fringe things that got amplified or is there some real issue that caused the hate to grow.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

For a subset of the American people there is nothing more reviled than a strong woman with opinions.

That was weaponized politically, mostly in bad faith.

 

[SpaceDock]

I think it is no different from AOC or even the Swalwell attackers that never end in right wing media. They figure these people might end up higher on the ballot at some point so they need to start beating the war drum as early as possible to build up negative name recognition in the general public.

 

[cwhitey2]

I think it is no different from AOC or even the Swalwell attackers that never end in right wing media. They figure these people might end up higher on the ballot at some point so they need to start beating the war drum as early as possible to build up negative name recognition in the general public.

I agree with this.

Shes no more or less evil than any other politician.

 

[fantom]

I always had the impression it was because she didn't stand up to Bill and get divorced after their marital problems went public. So there was a perception that people could walk all over her. Then again, no one seems to hold that against Melania.

 

[Shoeless_jose]

I always had the impression it was because she didn't stand up to Bill and get divorced after their marital problems went public. So there was a perception that people could walk all over her. Then again, no one seems to hold that against Melania.

See I get people disrespecting her due to her decision but yeah just seems like such a passionate strong dislike to be attributed to that but who knows

 

[bostjan]

Older people remember her as the epicenter of the cattle futures insider trading scandall and the Whitewater scandal, moreso than her husband Bill.

Then, after Bill Clinton was elected president, he became probably the most scandalous president since Nixon, getting investigated and eventually impeached. A lot of people, even then, mocked the entire ordeal, but it was also clear that the Clintons had some issues with their moral fiber, which was more important to republicans of the 1990's than today. Even though HRC wasn't associated with Bill's presidential gaffes, her reputation sure didn't get better over that time period.

She went on to support some goofy ideas as a Senator, like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act, and then the media wasn't kind to her when she ran against Obama.

So, given the choice between HRC and pretty much anyone else, well, I'd say most Americans would at the very least be very interested in who "anyone else" happened to be.

I, personally, can't stand her. I have no problems voting for women or democrats, since I'm independent and don't think sex, gender, or race matter at all for our leaders, but I just have seen how quickly she had historically been able to throw anyone and everyone under the proverbial bus for her transgressions, and seemingly feel no remorse.

But, well, then 2016... and the choice between her and Trump... well, we were doomed either way, IMO. Easy to look at how much of an atomic dumpster fire Trump was as president and assume she'd have at least been less toxic, but no way to know that for sure, although I do see many indications she would have been at least somewhat attached to reality and kept her corruption at least somewhat in check.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

...but no way to know that for sure...

I don't know why folks cling so tightly to the alternate reality where HRC puts kids in cages, kicks trans folks out of the military, and campaigns on white grievance.

Folks gambled on the GOP "doing the right thing", and lost. That's it.

Listen, I'm not some raging HRC fan, I was pretty vocal about my problems with her in the Primary and very reluctantly supported her in the general, but come on. In no timeline, real or imaginary, is she objectively worse or even as bad as we've seen from the GOP the last decade and change.

I'm not attacking you directly, Bostjan. I think we share many of the same opinions on her, only really disagreeing here.

 

[bostjan]

I don't know why folks cling so tightly to the alternate reality where HRC puts kids in cages, kicks trans folks out of the military, and campaigns on white grievance.

Folks gambled on the GOP "doing the right thing", and lost. That's it.

Listen, I'm not some raging HRC fan, I was pretty vocal about my problems with her in the Primary and very reluctantly supported her in the general, but come on. In no timeline, real or imaginary, is she objectively worse or even as bad as we've seen from the GOP the last decade and change.

I'm not attacking you directly, Bostjan. I think we share many of the same opinions on her, only really disagreeing here.

Oh, I agree with everything you said. My biggest worry about HRC was her foreign policy, but nothing about her appeared to be as bad as Trump - less corrupt, less likely to start WW3, less likely to screw up healthcare or the economy; however, all of those things still seemed more likely with her than I was comfortable. My only point was that there's no way to go back and see how she would do - I expected Trump to be bad, and he was worse than I expected. HRC could have been a surprise either way - for better or for worse (compared to expectations). The odds of her ending up worse than Trump was, in retrospect, is probably on the order of 0.1% odds.

I will never defend Trump's presidency. I honestly think it was the worst in history. If you look at the presidents rated worst prior to Trump, and the reasons why historians rate them poorly, the same logic applies to Trump in every single case.

I would not have expected HRC to have been worse than Herbert Hoover or James Buchannan, but my expectations were still somewhere closer to the bottom than to the top.

 

[Shoeless_jose]

Oh, I agree with everything you said. My biggest worry about HRC was her foreign policy, but nothing about her appeared to be as bad as Trump - less corrupt, less likely to start WW3, less likely to screw up healthcare or the economy; however, all of those things still seemed more likely with her than I was comfortable. My only point was that there's no way to go back and see how she would do - I expected Trump to be bad, and he was worse than I expected. HRC could have been a surprise either way - for better or for worse (compared to expectations). The odds of her ending up worse than Trump was, in retrospect, is probably on the order of 0.1% odds.

I will never defend Trump's presidency. I honestly think it was the worst in history. If you look at the presidents rated worst prior to Trump, and the reasons why historians rate them poorly, the same logic applies to Trump in every single case.

I would not have expected HRC to have been worse than Herbert Hoover or James Buchannan, but my expectations were still somewhere closer to the bottom than to the top.

Well said on so many fronts. Also the whole like almost pre ordained nomination just because "it's time for a woman" was junk. Like if she had not been former first lady all her well documented negatives surely would have made the party apparatus hold her back

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I think it's important to separate the genuine criticisms of HRC as an elected official and the absolutely batshit insane Benghazi/"Lock Her Up" crowd.

There's no winning over anyone who thinks she's the queen of a satanic cannibal pedophile cult operating out of a pizza parlor.

Outside the crazies, the worst you could really say is that she was a sketchy politician that over promised and under delivered, who valued her own brand and corporate interests over the people. That describes at least 75% of DC.

 

[ElRay]

I didn't dislike HRC prior to her being a Senator.

I did find her very sly and calculating, which unfortunately (to me) automatically makes someone (regardless of gender) unreliable, because the assumption is that they will always do what's in their best interest -- Which isn't always what's right or what was initially stated, agreed upon, etc. I joked from the beginning of the Bill Clinton Campaign in the Primaries, that getting Bill elected President was Hillary's end-run around the 22nd Amendment.

During the Senate campaign, I had a big issue with her being a carpet bagger. She had no connection to NY, it was just the politically "best" state to run in. Joining the Iraq War Bandwagon (again, because it was politically expedient), without reading the intel report, was a HUGE 2nd strike against her. Her time in the Senate, and while campaigning against Obama, was also when the cold, calculating, in-control image started to crack and nastiness started to peek through - strike three.

I think that HRC and tRump are different sides of the same coin. Admittedly, she was more like having the tips of your non-dominant-fingers cut-off vs. tRumps full-amputation-of-your-dominant-fingers, but essentially the same unreliability due to being self-serving, with constant, tightly controlled, anger simmering below the surface.

HRC vs. tRump was the epitome of "lesser of two evils".

 

[nightflameauto]

I can say, in all honesty, there's something inherent about her that just rankles. Like, I sometimes agree with the points she's making, but by the time she's done speaking I'm starting to change my mind because she's just so obviously self-important. I felt that way about her all the way back during Bill's presidency, and it only got worse as she pulled herself further into the spotlight.

Combine that general vibe of "ick" with her over the top "it's my turn" attitude both during the Obama primaries and during her run against Trump, and her absolute lack of desire to run an effective campaign since she considered it a lock. . . well, she hasn't helped me or folks like me think much more highly of her. Had she stepped back and allowed a viable candidate to run, maybe we wouldn't have had four years of dumpster fire level shame to contend with.

I honestly skipped voting for president when it was her vs. Trump because I saw it as two bullshitters with absolute garbage agendas meant only to serve themselves. I also had the mistaken belief that the senate and house would stop or at least curtail Trump's most abusive stupidities if he were elected, even though I knew his inability to see reality was at least as bad as Hillary's ability to manipulate and cajole her way into whatever she wanted. Clearly, I forgot the golden rule of politics. Democrats attempt cooperation to prevent momentum in their direction. Republicans grab whatever direction their top brass decides on and ride that direction as hard and as fast as they possibly can.

It was the only time I've skipped voting for president since I was able to. I won't make that mistake again, even if I know my vote is a throw-away like it was this go-round. My state went solidly Trump. But at least I don't have it on my conscience. I tossed my bit of paper in the direction of the stodgy white dude that can behave like a human instead of an out of control toddler. Yay me.

 

[Ralyks]

I think the only reason I would have voted Hilary was to give Bill the honors of being the first First Husband. Now I don't even think that would have been good.
But yeah. I didn't vote in 2016 because it was worse than Bush and Kerry as far as "lesser of two evils"

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I don't know, I never really hated HRC viscerally, so I sort went back through her legislative history, and honestly, she wasn't that bad in the context of the time. I mean most of her biggest blunders (which, again, were shared by almost the entire Democratic caucus at the time, even more so GOP), the Iraq War vote and Patriot Act, she mostly realized she was wrong and actively worked to correct. Was she successful? Not always.

What am I missing? She just seems like a boring center right politician...like pretty much all of the Dems the last 20 years. Why don't we hate Schumer this much? He's pretty much voted 1:1 with her. Same for Joe Biden.

Even for the not whacky stuff, it seems like the hatred is far outsized.

It more or less seems like she was seen as a rising star in a popular political dynasty and that put a major target on her back, from both parties.

 

[c7spheres]

One reason people hate her was when she lied about being in that helicopter taking fire. I don't hate her or like her.

 

[nightflameauto]

Even for the not whacky stuff, it seems like the hatred is far outsized.

It more or less seems like she was seen as a rising star in a popular political dynasty and that put a major target on her back, from both parties.

I think the blame for that can lie at least partially on her personality. Her husband was massively charismatic, and she was precisely the opposite. Some people just have a talent for being able to turn a room against them.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

One reason people hate her was when she lied about being in that helicopter taking fire. I don't hate her or like her.

Seems kind of quaint compared to "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

 

[bostjan]

I don't know, I never really hated HRC viscerally, so I sort went back through her legislative history, and honestly, she wasn't that bad in the context of the time. I mean most of her biggest blunders (which, again, were shared by almost the entire Democratic caucus at the time, even more so GOP), the Iraq War vote and Patriot Act, she mostly realized she was wrong and actively worked to correct. Was she successful? Not always.

What am I missing? She just seems like a boring center right politician...like pretty much all of the Dems the last 20 years. Why don't we hate Schumer this much? He's pretty much voted 1:1 with her. Same for Joe Biden.

Even for the not whacky stuff, it seems like the hatred is far outsized.

It more or less seems like she was seen as a rising star in a popular political dynasty and that put a major target on her back, from both parties.

I might be totally wrong, but, I strongly suspect that, if Schumer ran for president, there would be a great amount of bellyaching about it from the left, though.

And that's not even accounting for the fact that Schumer's controversies have been more about public speaking gaffes and his spouse's crusade against bike lanes, as opposed to Clinton's more fraudulent endeavors and her spouse's impeachment and tons of other much more serious shenanigans.

 

[mastapimp]

I still voted for her in 2016, but some of the pandering was difficult to stomach. When you appear on an urban syndicated morning show with a predominantly young black audience and the first thing you mention about what's in your purse is hot sauce, it comes across as disingenuous and reaching. Appearing on "Broad City" was another instance of this kind of pandering. She's trying a little too hard to appeal to certain demographics.

On the flip side, I was equally disappointed when Ted Cruz made his "machine gun bacon" video. It's fun and cool when you have some idiots from Epic Meal Time cooking their foods in zany fashion, but a senator going to a gun range with bacon wrapped around the muzzle of a machine gun is not the first thing I think of when I hear someone's an advocate of "gun rights."