ESP 2023

[Velokki]

No way man. Just no.

2013 is when all this bullshit started. It was the last year of ESP Standard Series. Even the headstock logo had already changed to the new font but still said ESP. The LTD Elites were sold alongside the standards and made in the same place by the same people. They were just wanting to get ESP off the headstock of the regular factory guitars and trying to find something they could make work. They experimented with a new ESP logo and the LTD Elite branding and wound up going with E-II.

Used 2013 ESP MII Standard EMG Electric Guitar Black #SS1333402

This pre-owned ESP MII features a neck-through design with a Maple neck topped with a Rosewood fretboard. A reverse headstock features the old-school ESP logo for a classic look, while the Floyd Rose Original locking tremolo adds functionality. EMG 81 humbuckers in both the neck and bridge...

www.themusiczoo.com

The LTD Elite was some failed experiment at renaming the standard series before they came up with E-II. They took the same exact LTD Elite guitars from the 2013 lineup and put the E-II logo on them for 2014 after nobody was going to pay as much for an LTD as they would for a standard ESP. From 2014 the standard series ESP logo was completely gone and replaced with E-II logos on all the formerly ESP standard and LTD Elite models.

ESP LTD Elite M-II Cherry Sunburst #EL1321301

A great Japan-made ESP at a price many shredders can afford! This is a used LTD Elite M-II with a cherry sunburst finish over a flame maple top. The guitar has a fast-playing maple neck with an ebony board, and two ripping EMG 81 humbuckers. It's in overall excellent condition with the original...

www.themusiczoo.com

ESP E-II M-II FM Amber Cherry Sunburst 2014 #ES1421605

This ESP E-II M-II FM is a real rock machine! This solid Japanese made ESP boasts an upgraded Sustainiac pickup in the neck and the original EMG bridge pickup - a pair that offers the best off the riffing and soloing worlds. Other features include an alder body with flame maple top, a maple...

www.themusiczoo.com

I would be glad to agree with you that this is what happened. But your theory is just your theory, until you can provide any proof - press releases, first-hand accounts from employees, anything?
And that's why we have to go with what is the official information; which is that E-II replaced, and is the current Standard Series.

If LTD Elite was discontinued after its' shortlived life, of course those builds would be carried over to LTD or E-II lines, if there were hundreds or thousands of guitars already half-ready. Then there's certainly a chance if you bought a 2014 Snapper, that it was a 2013 Elite one with an E-II logo. However - that doesn't mean that a 2015 E-II Eclipse is any worse than a 2010 Standard Series Eclipse, which is the bigger picture here.

You're essentially taking your empirical observations and calling them facts, which is quite a stretch. I'm willing to agree with you and admit you're right, if you can provide some solid proof for your theory!

I wouldn't be so passionate about this, but I worked for an ESP retailer in 2013 when this shit happened. We were all confused about LTD, LTD Elite, E-II, ESP Original, ESP USA. It was very confusing. But two of the reps we had, said the E-II line is exactly the same as the Standard Series. And that's what the press release says, too!

So any other theory is essentially just a theory invented by someone... and will need some proof to back it up.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I would be glad to agree with you that this is what happened. But your theory is just your theory, until you can provide any proof - press releases, first-hand accounts from employees, anything?
And that's why we have to go with what is the official information; which is that E-II replaced, and is the current Standard Series.

If LTD Elite was discontinued after its' shortlived life, of course those builds would be carried over to LTD or E-II lines, if there were hundreds or thousands of guitars already half-ready. Then there's certainly a chance if you bought a 2014 Snapper, that it was a 2013 Elite one with an E-II logo. However - that doesn't mean that a 2015 E-II Eclipse is any worse than a 2010 Standard Series Eclipse, which is the bigger picture here.

You're essentially taking your empirical observations and calling them facts, which is quite a stretch. I'm willing to agree with you and admit you're right, if you can provide some solid proof for your theory!

I wouldn't be so passionate about this, but I worked for an ESP retailer in 2013 when this shit happened. We were all confused about LTD, LTD Elite, E-II, ESP Original, ESP USA. It was very confusing. But two of the reps we had, said the E-II line is exactly the same as the Standard Series. And that's what the press release says, too!

So any other theory is essentially just a theory invented by someone... and will need some proof to back it up.

I've also worked music retail, and honestly, just because a rep says something, doesn't necessarily mean it's entirely true.

Remember, these guys are sales people. Their primary job is to sell these to you. So they can sometimes get a little wishy-washy on facts if they can make a particular aspect of the brand seem better or give more well "packaged" explanations.

It's not like a lot of these companies even educate their reps that great, so sometimes they just don't know.

Not saying either of you are right or wrong, it's just I wouldn't take anything as gospel from reps.

 

[RevelGTR]

LTD Elite and the Standard series both got folded into the E-II line, there is zero question about that. You could buy numerous E-II models that were branded LTD Elite the year prior.

 

[xzacx]

A press release is equally as unreliable as a sales rep. Think about what those are for a minute—a document written about a product/service/etc., by the company making it. At the very least, it’s portraying said product in the most flattering way possible in attempt to guide the narrative about it. I get press releases multiple times a week through my work and the amount of inaccuracies in them, whether intentional or not, is to the point where we think of them as more of a starting point than final word. What’s omitted in a press release often tells more than what’s in it. That doesn’t mean this is wrong, I truly don’t know, but I sure wouldn’t take the word of a press release as the answer.

 

[Velokki]

I've also worked music retail, and honestly, just because a rep says something, doesn't necessarily mean it's entirely true.

Remember, these guys are sales people. Their primary job is to sell these to you. So they can sometimes get a little wishy-washy on facts if they can make a particular aspect of the brand seem better or give more well "packaged" explanations.

It's not like a lot of these companies even educate their reps that great, so sometimes they just don't know.

Not saying either of you are right or wrong, it's just I wouldn't take anything as gospel from reps.

I know. I know this quite extensively, and reps sometimes get it wrong. But it was very well clarified in multiple instances, that E-II is the old ESP Standard series now. If that isn't true, then who can be trusted? ESP said so on the website, too. So you're basically saying that ESP has dropped their quality, even though they are made in the same factory, and they're trying to cover it up and smokescreen customers with a brand name change? It doesn't add up.

I think a lot of people have proclivity to draw conclusions when something noticeable and tangible happens. A political party changes its' name. A band renews their logo. A change of the logo on a guitar.

The change to E-II launched a large speculation whether ESPs guitars are as good as they once were. It was a clear watershed moment. Suddenly they didn't have the traditional ESP logo anymore, which for a lot of people, myself included, was a big part of the ESP experience! If I'm gonna spend 2-3K on a new guitar, it'd better have the ESP logo, since that's what I'm paying for - a REAL ESP. Not having the ESP logo, and having the E-II logo instead, leads a lot of people judging the instruments with their eyes. "What's this, is this even real ESP? I don't want that."

The question is; are the guitars as good as they once were? I've not had any problems with E-II guitars, but a 2003 Horizon I owned was a dead plank. For all I care, my empirical evidence suggests the E-II are better. I've only played great E-IIs. I've owned 4 older Standard Series ones, too. One of them was indeed a dud.

It would be a feasible assumption that ESP did dump their LTD Elite guitars under the E-II name in 2014, but that was literally a 1-year thing if that ever happened. I know that they did do clearance sales on the LTD Elite stuff back then, so did they clear out their LTD Elite line stock, and then started to produce those models under E-II standards?

But for real - anyone shouting "E-II is not real ESP, everyone knows that" - please provide any kind of proof. It's official info that the E-II replaced the old SS.

If someone provided even a minimal amount of proof about their QC dropping because of the E-II change, I'd love to check it out. For ex. a QC comparison of, let's say, 2010 Standard Series Eclipse and a 2020 E-II Eclipse. Even if on an isolated incident you could say that, hey, this is clearly lower QC than they used to have, it would help proving your theory. My experience (until the year 2020) is that the E-II stuff is fabulous. I've not tried their most recent guitars, so I can't comment on them.

 

[Nightside]

I know. I know this quite extensively, and reps sometimes get it wrong. But it was very well clarified in multiple instances, that E-II is the old ESP Standard series now. If that isn't true, then who can be trusted? ESP said so on the website, too. So you're basically saying that ESP has dropped their quality, even though they are made in the same factory, and they're trying to cover it up and smokescreen customers with a brand name change? It doesn't add up.

I think a lot of people have proclivity to draw conclusions when something noticeable and tangible happens. A political party changes its' name. A band renews their logo. A change of the logo on a guitar.

The change to E-II launched a large speculation whether ESPs guitars are as good as they once were. It was a clear watershed moment. Suddenly they didn't have the traditional ESP logo anymore, which for a lot of people, myself included, was a big part of the ESP experience! If I'm gonna spend 2-3K on a new guitar, it'd better have the ESP logo, since that's what I'm paying for - a REAL ESP. Not having the ESP logo, and having the E-II logo instead, leads a lot of people judging the instruments with their eyes. "What's this, is this even real ESP? I don't want that."

The question is; are the guitars as good as they once were? I've not had any problems with E-II guitars, but a 2003 Horizon I owned was a dead plank. For all I care, my empirical evidence suggests the E-II are better. I've only played great E-IIs. I've owned 4 older Standard Series ones, too. One of them was indeed a dud.

It would be a feasible assumption that ESP did dump their LTD Elite guitars under the E-II name in 2014, but that was literally a 1-year thing if that ever happened. I know that they did do clearance sales on the LTD Elite stuff back then, so did they clear out their LTD Elite line stock, and then started to produce those models under E-II standards?

But for real - anyone shouting "E-II is not real ESP, everyone knows that" - please provide any kind of proof. It's official info that the E-II replaced the old SS.

If someone provided even a minimal amount of proof about their QC dropping because of the E-II change, I'd love to check it out. For ex. a QC comparison of, let's say, 2010 Standard Series Eclipse and a 2020 E-II Eclipse. Even if on an isolated incident you could say that, hey, this is clearly lower QC than they used to have, it would help proving your theory. My experience (until the year 2020) is that the E-II stuff is fabulous. I've not tried their most recent guitars, so I can't comment on them.

I mean, if it were a real Esp they would put the Esp logo on it and not small print on the back of the headstock that it's an Esp product just like they do with LTDs. I don't know if the quality has slipped since the name change, but they definitely wanted people to have to pay more to get a real Esp. That was the entire point of changing from the standard series to begin with. It wasn't good enough to use the rondels on the back of the headstock to differentiate between standard, signature, original, and customs. They wanted it clear on the face of the headstock that you were too cheap to spring for the original series or a custom order.

 

[mlp187]

10 years later and we’re all still debating the ESP branding nightmare.

I doubt there was an ever a difference between SS / LTD Elite / E-II. I’d like to see it on paper, but also, I kind of don’t care all that much.

All I actually care to know is that their shit is out of control expensive now.

Still looking forward to those 2022 LTDs for 2023, lol.

 

[Nightside]

I doubt there was an ever a difference between SS / LTD Elite / E-II. I’d like to see it on paper, but also, I kind of don’t care all that much.

There wasn't. It's all the same stuff.

 

[RevelGTR]

.

It would be a feasible assumption that ESP did dump their LTD Elite guitars under the E-II name in 2014, but that was literally a 1-year thing if that ever happened. I know that they did do clearance sales on the LTD Elite stuff back then, so did they clear out their LTD Elite line stock, and then started to produce those models under E-II standards?

.

Literally yes, that’s exactly what happened. Look at the E-II Horizon 3 that they still make, now look up the LTD Elite Horizon 3 they made for one year. Same guitar, just a logo change.

 

[Velokki]

Literally yes, that’s exactly what happened. Look at the E-II Horizon 3 that they still make, now look up the LTD Elite Horizon 3 they made for one year. Same guitar, just a logo change.

IMO there's nothing bad or strange if they continued to make a model as an E-II, that was first introduced under the LTD Elite brand. This does not confirm any theory, that those E-II instruments would be of any lower quality than the Standard Series used to be. I know for a fact that in the UK, the first LTD Elites were far inferior quality than E-II or Standard Series. I know, because I handled the first shipments with my own hands back then. They were seriously not the kind of Standard Series quality, or even LTD Deluxe for that matter! But then again, that's just my empirical experience!

Even when they started to make those same models under E-II, this doesn't confirm that the quality would be any less than the Standard Series. For all I know, when they quit the LTD Elite series, and subsequently raised the prices of those Elite models that were now under the more expensive E-II brand, they'd most likely simplify all QC processes and start making all the guitars with the same kind of process. But hey - we can't know for sure since we don't have access to the factory's day-to-day internal processes.

But to exaggerate the flaw in your logic - take an EC-1000 Evertune. That succesful model later made it's way to an E-II Evertune. With the same logic you used there, that's the same EC-1000, just a logo change?

I'm just saying, just because you see a model that was introduced under LTD Elite, and is now made under E-II, you cannot just say "they're of lower quality", even though the original LTD Elites clearly were.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Quality is a range. ESP's manufacturing capabilities in Japan have been under a LOT of stresses lately, some external and others internal, so it's not surprising that we're seeing the pains as stuff that normally would be stopped from leaving the factory makes it to dealers who are also desperate.

 

[Andromalia]

The one thing I really dislike abouit LTDs is the usually super ugly logo in an atrocious color match with the guitar color. It's like it's ugly on purpose. There are a few exceptions (mostly, those were the font used is the one from thge ESP newer logos, ie, snakebyte for exemple) but usually the LTD logo is just a sore sight.

 

[RevelGTR]

IMO there's nothing bad or strange if they continued to make a model as an E-II, that was first introduced under the LTD Elite brand. This does not confirm any theory, that those E-II instruments would be of any lower quality than the Standard Series used to be. I know for a fact that in the UK, the first LTD Elites were far inferior quality than E-II or Standard Series. I know, because I handled the first shipments with my own hands back then. They were seriously not the kind of Standard Series quality, or even LTD Deluxe for that matter! But then again, that's just my empirical experience!

Even when they started to make those same models under E-II, this doesn't confirm that the quality would be any less than the Standard Series. For all I know, when they quit the LTD Elite series, and subsequently raised the prices of those Elite models that were now under the more expensive E-II brand, they'd most likely simplify all QC processes and start making all the guitars with the same kind of process. But hey - we can't know for sure since we don't have access to the factory's day-to-day internal processes.

But to exaggerate the flaw in your logic - take an EC-1000 Evertune. That succesful model later made it's way to an E-II Evertune. With the same logic you used there, that's the same EC-1000, just a logo change?

I'm just saying, just because you see a model that was introduced under LTD Elite, and is now made under E-II, you cannot just say "they're of lower quality", even though the original LTD Elites clearly were.

Brother, the LTD Elite’s were made in the exact same factory as the SS and E-II. One day they stopped slapping an LTD Elite logo on them and started slapping an E-II logo on them. This isn’t based on some kind of logical model transference process, it’s the reality of what happened.

The example you gave is completely unrelated. They made an LTD Eclipse with an evertune. People bought it, and such they assumed people liked this concept. They started making a higher end eclipse in Japan with an evertune.

This is so obvious.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

These ugly fucking raised logos need to die.

 

[Nightside]

IMO there's nothing bad or strange if they continued to make a model as an E-II, that was first introduced under the LTD Elite brand. This does not confirm any theory, that those E-II instruments would be of any lower quality than the Standard Series used to be. I know for a fact that in the UK, the first LTD Elites were far inferior quality than E-II or Standard Series. I know, because I handled the first shipments with my own hands back then. They were seriously not the kind of Standard Series quality, or even LTD Deluxe for that matter! But then again, that's just my empirical experience!

Even when they started to make those same models under E-II, this doesn't confirm that the quality would be any less than the Standard Series. For all I know, when they quit the LTD Elite series, and subsequently raised the prices of those Elite models that were now under the more expensive E-II brand, they'd most likely simplify all QC processes and start making all the guitars with the same kind of process. But hey - we can't know for sure since we don't have access to the factory's day-to-day internal processes.

But to exaggerate the flaw in your logic - take an EC-1000 Evertune. That succesful model later made it's way to an E-II Evertune. With the same logic you used there, that's the same EC-1000, just a logo change?

I'm just saying, just because you see a model that was introduced under LTD Elite, and is now made under E-II, you cannot just say "they're of lower quality", even though the original LTD Elites clearly were.

Idk what exactly you're trying to get at. We are all saying the same thing. LTD elite, E-II, and SS are all the same shit with different names.

A 1000 series LTD is not made in Japan by the same factory as the LTD elite, E-II, and SS. 1000 series LTDs are made in Korea and Indonesia.

The only thing I am saying is that the E-IIs are no longer a real Esp because Esp themselves wanted it that way. Now if you want Esp on the front, you have to pay for something from the Japanese hand mades or a USA.

Other people have been saying the quality of E-II has been slipping since the name change.

 

[gunch]

Does esp know that whatever they try to do apart from the stuff from the 90's nobody really wants?

GIVE US THE FUCKING CRATE SPRAY FONT LOGOS BACK ESP HOW HARD IS IT

 

[Vyn]

E-II/SS/LTD Elite are all the same product with a different badge.

The issue with QC at the moment is that ESP is going through what every other manufacturer is going through because of the pandemic. Admittedly ESP were behind on E-II production well before the world went to shit albeit to a lesser scale.

Also worth noting that EVERY major manufacturer at the moment is having higher than normal numbers of lemons slip through the cracks lately. Unless you're buying from a dealer you trust I wouldn't be buying sight unseen for a while.

 

[feraledge]

How is it possible that ten years later this shit still bombards the ESP threads?

 

[dirtool]

no news?
no leak?

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

no news?
no leak?

No, ESP hasn't shared anything at all except a couple of sig models revealed and teased last year.
Once again, not surprising because a shiiiiiiiitton of the 2022 lineup still isn't available yet. No way in hell ESP is gonna have any kind of 2023 lineup ready when the 2022 lineup is sitll mostly MIA