Ethics of Copying Guitar Designs [Esp. Small Shops]

[narad]

I don't know about price increases or whatever, just that you can't remove the Hetfield part of the equation just because it doesn't matter for you. Besides I'm not blaming anyone or anything, where did you get that weird idea

Well I mean you're saying that if Hetfield didn't play a KL they'd be like $3-4k cheaper. I'm saying, that'd be super weird, because for a single builder shop that's been open 30 years, $3k explorers would be pretty unusual, and all the other comparable shops are charging $6-8k usually.

And I mean, you're comparing to a SnakeByte, which is a production instrument, and saying that it's the Hetfield factor that makes up the difference. I would say what makes up the difference is being one guy making 20 of those guitars every 2 years vs. an ESP production line.

"blame", i.e., attributing an outcome to.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

To me any guitar can be great, be it 100 or 100.000€. The rest is really up to what are you willing to spare. Likewise it can be a pos... I have seen so many faultless production guitars, that really all these comments do nothing for me...

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

To me any guitar can be great, be it 100 or 100.000€. The rest is really up to what are you willing to spare. Likewise it can be a pos... I have seen so many faultless production guitars, that really all these comments do nothing for me...

Peace of mind and consistency. When you send Ken Lawrence thousands of dollars, you can sleep easy knowing that not only will you get a guitar, but the guitar that you get will be immaculate. And while a production guitar could also be immaculate, the percentage that are absolutely pales in comparison. Add in the ability to toggle certain options and the 'cool' factor, and suddenly, if you've got the money and don't want to deal with rolling the dice, opting for an artisan-built guitar makes sense.

Hetfield helped Lawrence's brand, for sure- and he absolutely helps to allow him get away with higher pricing. But I think he'd be totally fine if he never built him a guitar, because like Narad said, there are more than a handful of guys building at that caliber and charging those prices (some substantially higher) and doing just fine. Like I've said through this entire discussion, quality speaks for itself and will make or break your brand.

 

[Yul Brynner]

The thing is the Hetfield factor really does matter unless you're a bassist. Ken Lawrence didn't build guitars before Hetfield and built guitars solely for Hetfield for a number of years. If Hetfield hadn't got him to copy his ESP, Ken Lawrence would probably be basses only still.

 

[A-Branger]

The thing is the Hetfield factor really does matter unless you're a bassist. Ken Lawrence didn't build guitars before Hetfield and built guitars solely for Hetfield for a number of years. If Hetfield hadn't got him to copy his ESP, Ken Lawrence would probably be basses only still.

directly or inderectly Hetfield is the reason why you (and all of us) know about these explorers

 

[Zado]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BwzvsCvAImC/?igshid=h432nemwd4yp

Welll......

 

[Yul Brynner]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BwzvsCvAImC/?igshid=h432nemwd4yp

Welll......

Probably the same factory that makes them for LTD. Looks like they only changed the logo.

Speaking about the Hetfield factor. I know myself and a lot of others would never have heard of ESP without Metallica. I saw Hammetts KH4 in the pictures on the Load CD booklet and loved the look of it. I really liked the headstock it had. When I bought AJFA I saw a big list of endorsements on the back page and that is when I started looking for ESP guitars. Nobody had heard of them. I finally found a store that had a few LTDs in stock in the next state over. I got my second guitar there in 1999. It was a black LTD M200 MiK with Gotoh hardware and the 12th fret inlay with a plain LTD just like the ESP 12th fret inlays. Even when I moved to Colorado Springs, the local guitar shops had no idea who ESP was. I took in my CS KH4 to try out amps and they were apparently impressed with it because they were ESP dealers with the higher end MiJ ESPs hanging on the wall when I came back from my next deployment.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

I'm more into stuff like that....

Peace of mind and consistency. When you send Ken Lawrence thousands of dollars, you can sleep easy knowing that not only will you get a guitar, but the guitar that you get will be immaculate. And while a production guitar could also be immaculate, the percentage that are absolutely pales in comparison. Add in the ability to toggle certain options and the 'cool' factor, and suddenly, if you've got the money and don't want to deal with rolling the dice, opting for an artisan-built guitar makes sense.

Hetfield helped Lawrence's brand, for sure- and he absolutely helps to allow him get away with higher pricing. But I think he'd be totally fine if he never built him a guitar, because like Narad said, there are more than a handful of guys building at that caliber and charging those prices (some substantially higher) and doing just fine. Like I've said through this entire discussion, quality speaks for itself and will make or break your brand.

For the money it takes, it better be perfect...
Look I'm not income police, everyone is free to spend the money he makes however he likes.
I just don't like the justifications used in most cases. At such prices, he would close shop if he was less than excellent.

A guitar as a build can only get so good, it has 2 aspects, workmanship and materials used.
CNCs spit out perfectly cut parts in most cases... So everyone's commenting on superior build quality by X shop, is either looking for ways to feel better about his purchase, or is just clueless.
There are many ways to get a good instrument.

I would prefer if someone said, I like this builder, his aesthetic, these woods that you cannot find elsewhere easily...

Back on topic kind of, sort of...
Gibson wouldn't be very willing to build me a 7cm thick, 7string paul...
with woods of my choice. Thankfully I'm learning to do it myself.

 

[Zado]

Probably the same factory that makes them for LTD. Looks like they only changed the logo.

WMI (indo one) for sure, but even the same headstock design and inlays......

 

[c7spheres]

I'm more into stuff like that....


For the money it takes, it better be perfect...
Look I'm not income police, everyone is free to spend the money he makes however he likes.
I just don't like the justifications used in most cases. At such prices, he would close shop if he was less than excellent.

A guitar as a build can only get so good, it has 2 aspects, workmanship and materials used.
CNCs spit out perfectly cut parts in most cases... So everyone's commenting on superior build quality by X shop, is either looking for ways to feel better about his purchase, or is just clueless.
There are many ways to get a good instrument.

I would prefer if someone said, I like this builder, his aesthetic, these woods that you cannot find elsewhere easily...

Back on topic kind of, sort of...
Gibson wouldn't be very willing to build me a 7cm thick, 7string paul...
with woods of my choice. Thankfully I'm learning to do it myself.

WOW! That is some nice thick wood. I like that wood dude. Look at that fretboard. Please post when we can see it all finshed. That will be sweet!

 

[MaxOfMetal]

CNCs spit out perfectly cut parts in most cases... So everyone's commenting on superior build quality by X shop, is either looking for ways to feel better about his purchase, or is just clueless.

Perfectly cut bodies and necks (which still require many hours of work) aren't guitars. They're raw parts that still need a lot of attention.

This is a really good look at what still goes into a guitar that has it's components CNC cut:

I'm game.

First off, there is no shop, large or small, that is entirely CNC. It does not exist. I think most individuals would be surprised by what a guitar component looks like when it comes off a CNC. It is no where near complete, there is still plenty of hand sanding, fitting, etc.

Here's a break down of what I do with the CNC and "by hand".

CNC:
Fretboards - you asked "why
they've gone to the CNC and what aspect of things is better". The fretboard is so brutally important that it is ideal for CNC accuracy. I perimeter, slot, radius, and rout for inlays all in one set-up on the CNC. Than insures spot-on fret slot placement (VERY important to the quality of the guitar), consistent radii including compound radiusing, and inlays that are very tight and free of sloppy filler/gaps.
Total time on the CNC: 20 minutes

Necks - Once the blank has been bandsawn ("by hand") to an oversized shape the CNC will machine the neck carve, perimeter the neck and heel, shape the headstock, drill for tuners, rout for truss rod and rout for logo & purfling. This is done through 6 different set-ups.
Total time on the CNC: 1 hour, 45 minutes.

Bodies - The CNC performs all cavity routing (top & back), neck pocket routing, perimeter, top carve, and bridge location holes. On a pivot style trem, such as a PRS trem, the location of those 6 holes must be perfectly inline to prevent binding of the trem during use.
Total time on the CNC for a body with carve top: 3 hours

Inlays - Production inlays, such as my Firesuns and "T" logo, are cut on the CNC for a perfect fit into the routes on the fretboard and headstock. I also "rip" my purfling strips on the CNC too.
Total time for one guitar's worth: 15 minutes

Components - I machine my own 1-pc. brass tremolos, pickup covers and rings, knobs, back plates, truss rod covers, and jack plates.
Total time worth: Approx: 10 hours.
Granted, all of these parts are "custom" for my guitars exclusively. I could purchase all of these parts from guitar supply shops but prefer to make my own.

None of the above times include any programming, set-up or material preparation...all of which are done "by hand".

_____________________

"By hand"
This term, I assume, includes feeding or pushing the component through a power tool such as a planer, jointer, drum sander, bandsaw etc.

Fretboards:
Pre CNC: The wood is bandsawn to an oversize thickness and feed through a drum sander to flatten.

Post CNC - The fretboard needs to:
Have the side dots drilled and glued in.
Inlays and purfling glued in.
Glue the board to the neck blank.
Level and true the board.
Fret and fretdress.
Total time "by hand": 13 hours for the above operations. My fret preparation (cutting to length, nipping the tang, grinding the tang), fret installation and dress is a total of 6 hours alone...no CNC for any of those operations.

Necks:
Pre CNC:
The wood is milled and rough cut to shape, using tracing templates, on a table saw and bandsaw before it gets to the CNC.
Post CNC:
Install the truss rod and filler strip,
blend the neck into the fretboard,
inlay logo and purfling,
final shape the neck carve to spec using rasps, spindle sanders and lots of elbow grease sanding then sanding some more,
gluing the neck into the body.
Total time "by hand": 8-10 hours easily.

Body:
Pre CNC:
Split top, joint edges, bookmatch glue together, sand to thickness.
Mill/sand body to thickness.
Locate and glue top to body spread then sand and drill locating hole for the CNC.
Post CNC:
Inlay purfling.
Drill for controls, side jack, wiring channels.
Radius back edge on router table.
SAND from 150 grit to 320/400
Total time "by hand": 10-15 hours depending on the wood species.

Paint:
Prep, mask off, stain, seal, color, top coat, lots of sanding in between, lots of sanding after, buffing...the list goes on. No CNC for these ops.
Total time "by hand": 28 hours if all goes right the first time...it never does.

Assembly:
Installation of components (tuners, pickups, bridge, etc), wiring, cutting the nut, set up.
Total time "by hand": 6-8 hours

The above is only visually productive acts, not including ordering wood and components, e-mails, shipping, and just plain running the business.

_______

So, if we deduct the custom components and use off the shelf bridges, pickup rings, etc. The average total time is:
CNC: 5 hours, 20 minutes.
"By hand": 69 hours, 30 minutes.

I consider my shop to be fairly state of the art, I have a large HAAS CNC for the woodwork, and 2 smaller CNCs for the pearl inlay work. The only additional automated CNC-type machinery would be a Plek and a robotic buffer. I could see that only reducing the "by hand" total by a couple/few hours at most.

Not mentioned would be a custom one-off inlay that I, or my father, would do "by hand" with a jeweler's saw and a mini router. The time spent on that could be from 45 minutes to 100s of hours depending on the design.


However small in comparison those 5 hours, 20 minutes seem...they are VERY important to the outcome of the guitar. Accuracy and consistancy are unmatched. There are features, such as my double offset purfling, that just can't physically be done by hand. Fretslots accurate to within .0005" of an inch...heck, the wood will expand or contract more than that by the time I turn the lights off in the shop at the end of the day...but it's good to know they are as accurate as can be.
Inlays that are gap free and clean are important to me. I'm not a fan of filler and I don't want that to be a part of my product. Even with hand cut and routed inlays, I feel we are one of the best at making them tight and clean.

Can I build a guitar with out a CNC, sure.
WOULD I now if I didn't have one...I doubt it, because I would always feel the guitar isn't as good as it can be WITH the help of a CNC.
There you have one take on it from a CNC builder.

Ron Thorn
Thorn Custom Guitars & Inlay

"Powered by HAAS...and loving it "

 

[narad]

I would prefer if someone said, I like this builder, his aesthetic, these woods that you cannot find elsewhere easily...

I like this builder, HIS aesthetic, these woods that you cannot find elsewhere easily...

 

[Shadow Explorer]

@ c7spheres: Thanks a lot mate, I will make a thread in the appropriate place once it's done.

@MaxOfMetal: I'm well aware of the process, very nice post.

 

[Yul Brynner]

https://insta-stalker.com/post/BvvmHkLgfj8/

Mark Furtner has pretty good taste. Wish his M-II sig was official on the website. This is a recent custom shop Horizon he ordered with the "Jackson" headstock.

 

[narad]

Yea, I would 100% order the exact thing. But instead I continue to wait and watch the used JP marketplaces.