EVs vs ICEs

[soliloquy]

A bit unrelated, but why do crashes/fatalities that involve Teslas make the distinction that it happened in a Tesla? For example, a US Senator's sister in law backed up into a pond and died, and headlines explicitly mention it was a Tesla. A while ago, some software engineer/exec/whatever drove his Tesla purposely into something or off something to kill him and his family, and the headlines made sure it was known it was Tesla. I feel like there's other examples, but maybe not.

I can't remember ever seeing like "Man kills wife with his Toyota Camry", but maybe it's because headlines about car fatalities are about the privileged/famous/wealthy, and those type of people are more likely to drive Teslas? Curious if anyone has noticed something similar

In Canada, Teslas are getting more popular, but not enough to warrant these kind of sensationalized headlines.
However, they could very well be doing that because of the global growing distaste to Musk?
or the global growing distaste to anything protecting the environment, and that 'we dont need newer/better technology' bs?

regardless, the answer you're looking for very well might be lost in the bias the news outlet are trying to push onto its viewers.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

A bit unrelated, but why do crashes/fatalities that involve Teslas make the distinction that it happened in a Tesla? For example, a US Senator's sister in law backed up into a pond and died, and headlines explicitly mention it was a Tesla. A while ago, some software engineer/exec/whatever drove his Tesla purposely into something or off something to kill him and his family, and the headlines made sure it was known it was Tesla. I feel like there's other examples, but maybe not.

I can't remember ever seeing like "Man kills wife with his Toyota Camry", but maybe it's because headlines about car fatalities are about the privileged/famous/wealthy, and those type of people are more likely to drive Teslas? Curious if anyone has noticed something similar

In those cases the allegation was that an inherent feature of the Tesla itself was to blame.

In Chao's case, the touch screen gear select might have contributed to driving in the wrong direction. Not sure which other specific case you mean, but two notable ones were someone who was driving in "Autopilot" while watching a movie and another who was asleep at the wheel and also had "Autopilot" smash them into a wall.

When that actor died because his Jeep pinned him against a column because FCA's stupid turn knob style shifter was ambiguous they were similarly directly called out.

 

[TedEH]

It reads to me because cars are status symbols. You can paint a picture with "this is someone who would own a Tesla". Maybe it's a techbro, one of the examples was a software person (why include that detail too?), it's probably someone who can afford a decent car, it might be someone who isn't bothered by Elon Musk's problems, etc. In the same way you might tell a story about a guy driving an oversized all-black Ram, or paint a story of a young guy with a fixed up Civic. It might not be "fair", but I've got a very different picture in my head of those three drivers.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

It reads to me because cars are status symbols. You can paint a picture with "this is someone who would own a Tesla". Maybe it's a techbro, one of the examples was a software person (why include that detail too?), it's probably someone who can afford a decent car, it might be someone who isn't bothered by Elon Musk's problems, etc. In the same way you might tell a story about a guy driving an oversized all-black Ram, or paint a story of a young guy with a fixed up Civic. It might not be "fair", but I've got a very different picture in my head of those three drivers.

There's definitely some story driving going on in a lot of the headlines, much like how every Tesla fire gets an article these days.

But I think there are specific examples, like I mentioned, where Tesla is front and center because the issue is possibly a Tesla one, and not specific to EVs or even just cars in general.

I think Tesla deserves some flack for how they market "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving" and that's why you get a lot of articles when someone does something stupid while using them.

 

[TedEH]

To some point, I think a fair number of people not-in-the-know actually make the opposite association. To them, Tesla = EV and EV = Tesla. I've spoken to a fair number of people since I switched to an EV who said they had no idea there were so many of them out there until I pointed it out, because they don't "see" other EVs as anything but normal cars until someone points it out to them.

 

[Randy]

There's definitely some story driving going on in a lot of the headlines, much like how every Tesla fire gets an article these days.

But I think there are specific examples, like I mentioned, where Tesla is front and center because the issue is possibly a Tesla one, and not specific to EVs or even just cars in general.

I think Tesla deserves some flack for how they market "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving" and that's why you get a lot of articles when someone does something stupid while using them.

I'll second this. Most of the Tesla specific articles I read are talking about features confined to that specific model of car.

I'm sure some of it is the sexiness of an EV fear baiting article or a musk bash but most of them are because there are features on the Tesla which are specific to that car and they proclaim to be safe, but you occasionally see an occurrence of an accident specific to that feature in that car. I think that's a valid concern.

 

[StevenC]

I always read those articles as smug irony targeted at Musk's smug smart guy facade. Every time one of his cars does something dangerous because of some "innovation" that is worse than what the rest of the industry has developed already. It's the same thing that's happening at twitter:



Similarly, see the Kia/Hyundai burglaries recently.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

It's the "every Tesla thing has to be a Musk thing" problem.

 

[TedEH]

Many Tesla things are Musk things though. A character like that doesn't have a zero influence on the attitudes of the company. I went into their local office to test drive a Model 3 a while back and they.... yeah, their whole setup has an air of Musk to it. I understand that a company is not just the vocal dumbass who acts as the face of the company, but any place I've worked for / with / at / etc. has always taking a significant amount of their culture from the values of their leadership. I mean, that's why they call them leadership after all.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Many Tesla things are Musk things though. A character like that doesn't have a zero influence on the attitudes of the company. I went into their local office to test drive a Model 3 a while back and they.... yeah, their whole setup has an air of Musk to it. I understand that a company is not just the vocal dumbass who acts as the face of the company, but any place I've worked for / with / at / etc. has always taking a significant amount of their culture from the values of their leadership. I mean, that's why they call them leadership after all.

Well yeah, Musk is definitely culpable for most all Tesla problems, he runs the company.

But not every Tesla accident needs to center around his cult of personality.

Like those poor saps didn't die because Musk is a dipshit, they died through a combination of stupidity and hubris aided and abetted by Tesla's dangerous marketing.

 

[TedEH]

Yeh, fair enough.

 

[Moongrum]

In those cases the allegation was that an inherent feature of the Tesla itself was to blame.

I'll be honest, I just read the headlines, and move on with my day, I didn't know Chao's case there was a possible malfunction.

For the other instance, I was referring to Dharmesh Patel. I thought he was just suicidal, but now that I'm revisiting the news about it, he's saying the car malfunctioned but his family says he tried to kill them. So again, an alleged Tesla malfunction.

 

[StevenC]

I'll be honest, I just read the headlines, and move on with my day, I didn't know Chao's case there was a possible malfunction.

For the other instance, I was referring to Dharmesh Patel. I thought he was just suicidal, but now that I'm revisiting the news about it, he's saying the car malfunctioned but his family says he tried to kill them. So again, an alleged Tesla malfunction.

I think there is also an aspect of car journalists and enthusiasts broadly seeing Tesla owners as rich idiots who want to show off and virtue signal. People who are therefore worthy of ridicule and deserve mocking. And like, "billionaire sister-in-law of most evil politician in country" is very deserving of that.

And yeah, it also kinda holds true because no one who owns a Tesla can be anything other than a a rich idiot who only cares about perceptions. Otherwise they wouldn't buy a Tesla because it's an overpriced bad car for lots of reasons.

 

[spudmunkey]

it's an overpriced bad car for lots of reasons.

Let's look at every EV that's cheaper than the 3 available in the US:

Nissan Leaf has 30% less range. Get the upgraded battery to get comparable range, and it's within $1000 of the 3. Along with that, it's waaaaay slower and the software experience is way way worse. It's also a way worse drive (both: more harsh, while also being more floaty), and noisier with a terrible audio system.

Mini : half the range and only ~$7k less than a 3. It's also only 2 doors and no frunk.

Hyundai Kona is only range competitive if you get the higher end model, and then it's the same price as the 3, with way less power. Most other differences are subjective preferences. Does have a small frunk, with an unfortunate divider in the middle, so you can't put a backpack in it.

Fiat 500: 30% less range, only 2 doors, way less power, and no federal tax credit so that $4k MSRP savings shrinks, and no frunk.

Hyundai Ionic 6: the one I'd say can go toe-to-toe with the 3, so it'd come down to mostly subjective preferences, and lacks the NACS ports until the end of the year, so to use a Tesla charger, you'll need an adaptor unless it's one of Tesla's "Magic Dock" chargers. The Tesla charging network experience is unmatched, and it's not even close. It has a "frunk", but it's only 0.4 cubic feet (Tesla's is about 8x larger)

Every single other EV in the US has a higher MSRP.

Now...make no mistake, I'm not saying people should actually buy one. But if it's "overpriced", so it everything else on the market right now. On my one block, there's over 10 EVs, and at least 7 of them are model 3s/Ys. I'm in a modest, lower-middle class neighborhood next to a National Guard armory, and under an international airport flight paths. Defitnely not a neighborhood where anyone is trying to peacock with their cars. But that charging network? For some people, that is the difference between getting an EV, and not getting one...and I live where there are a lot of chargers around...but are not at all dependable, and much slower.

Worth a mention: yes, Tesla service sucks and always has. But note that just because an EV has the badge of a larger brand, that doesn't mean that your local dealer service centers will service their EVs. My local VW dealer does, but my parents would have to drive past two VW dealers to get to one that would.

 

[TedEH]

But if it's "overpriced", so it everything else on the market right now.

I don't think you're going to get much argument on that front.

 

[Glades]

Let's look at every EV that's cheaper than the 3 available in the US:

Nissan Leaf has 30% less range. Get the upgraded battery to get comparable range, and it's within $1000 of the 3. Along with that, it's waaaaay slower and the software experience is way way worse. It's also a way worse drive (both: more harsh, while also being more floaty), and noisier with a terrible audio system.

Mini : half the range and only ~$7k less than a 3. It's also only 2 doors and no frunk.

Hyundai Kona is only range competitive if you get the higher end model, and then it's the same price as the 3, with way less power. Most other differences are subjective preferences. Does have a small frunk, with an unfortunate divider in the middle, so you can't put a backpack in it.

Fiat 500: 30% less range, only 2 doors, way less power, and no federal tax credit so that $4k MSRP savings shrinks, and no frunk.

Hyundai Ionic 6: the one I'd say can go toe-to-toe with the 3, so it'd come down to mostly subjective preferences, and lacks the NACS ports until the end of the year, so to use a Tesla charger, you'll need an adaptor unless it's one of Tesla's "Magic Dock" chargers. The Tesla charging network experience is unmatched, and it's not even close. It has a "frunk", but it's only 0.4 cubic feet (Tesla's is about 8x larger)

Every single other EV in the US has a higher MSRP.

Now...make no mistake, I'm not saying people should actually buy one. But if it's "overpriced", so it everything else on the market right now. On my one block, there's over 10 EVs, and at least 7 of them are model 3s/Ys. I'm in a modest, lower-middle class neighborhood next to a National Guard armory, and under an international airport flight paths. Defitnely not a neighborhood where anyone is trying to peacock with their cars. But that charging network? For some people, that is the difference between getting an EV, and not getting one...and I live where there are a lot of chargers around...but are not at all dependable, and much slower.

Worth a mention: yes, Tesla service sucks and always has. But note that just because an EV has the badge of a larger brand, that doesn't mean that your local dealer service centers will service their EVs. My local VW dealer does, but my parents would have to drive past two VW dealers to get to one that would.

That’s my main problem with these modern vehicles. They are dang near impossible to work on.

I drive a 20 year old diesel truck. I can get my hands on the rockers in less than 10 minutes, and set the valve lash within 30 minutes. It takes me 2 hours to replace all 6 injectors. I can drop the tranny and drop in a rebuilt one on a Saturday morning, get 2 hands on the turbo and replace it after church. And if I need to get to something to work on, I usually don’t need to remove 3 other things that are on the way. These vehicles were engineered to be serviced and last 1 million miles.
These piece of junk trucks now are designed to last the length of the manufacturer warranties. They are packed full of emissions systems because of EPA regulations, which make trucks more expensive to buy, destroy engines, and cost a fortune to repair.

This is the end of self-reliance folks. They just want us all to be consumers. Men don’t know how to do basic things anymore, and that’s who corporations want us to be.

Teach your kids how to do a brake job, how to set a trot line and skin a buck.

 

[StevenC]

That’s my main problem with these modern vehicles. They are dang near impossible to work on.

I drive a 20 year old diesel truck. I can get my hands on the rockers in less than 10 minutes, and set the valve lash within 30 minutes. It takes me 2 hours to replace all 6 injectors. I can drop the tranny and drop in a rebuilt one on a Saturday morning, get 2 hands on the turbo and replace it after church. And if I need to get to something to work on, I usually don’t need to remove 3 other things that are on the way. These vehicles were engineered to be serviced and last 1 million miles.
These piece of junk trucks now are designed to last the length of the manufacturer warranties. They are packed full of emissions systems because of EPA regulations, which make trucks more expensive to buy, destroy engines, and cost a fortune to repair.

This is the end of self-reliance folks. They just want us all to be consumers. Men don’t know how to do basic things anymore, and that’s who corporations want us to be.

Teach your kids how to do a brake job, how to set a trot line and skin a buck.

Your never going to guess which side of the political spectrum "right to repair" and "fund trades/apprenticeships" are on

 

[jaxadam]

Teach your kids how to do a brake job, how to set a trot line and skin a buck.

A country boy can be survive.

 

[narad]

That’s my main problem with these modern vehicles. They are dang near impossible to work on.

I drive a 20 year old diesel truck. I can get my hands on the rockers in less than 10 minutes, and set the valve lash within 30 minutes. It takes me 2 hours to replace all 6 injectors. I can drop the tranny and drop in a rebuilt one on a Saturday morning, get 2 hands on the turbo and replace it after church. And if I need to get to something to work on, I usually don’t need to remove 3 other things that are on the way. These vehicles were engineered to be serviced and last 1 million miles.
These piece of junk trucks now are designed to last the length of the manufacturer warranties. They are packed full of emissions systems because of EPA regulations, which make trucks more expensive to buy, destroy engines, and cost a fortune to repair.

This is the end of self-reliance folks. They just want us all to be consumers. Men don’t know how to do basic things anymore, and that’s who corporations want us to be.

Teach your kids how to do a brake job, how to set a trot line and skin a buck.

If you're teaching your kids how to skin a buck and not how to use computers, you're setting them up poorly for contemporary life.

 

[TedEH]

How in the hell did we get here from a list of comparative EV specs?

"These very simple electric cars are PROOF I SAY that vehicles are over-engineered and turning our MEN into SISSIES."