Help with the 7 modes

[ferret]

I appreciate the "overly complicated" responses. They've helped my understanding of modes considerably.

 

[Elliott Jeffries]

I don't appreciate overly complicated responses. I'm more impressed with simple solutions that are based on higher forms of thinking. I'm not talking about band aids or quick fixes, but the less is more approach is better for clear explanations. When a question arises, we can go there at that time, instead of being there already but not knowing where we are.

 

[wespaul]

and here we go...

 

[sage]

This excerpt from Trickae's post is how I think of modes:

Ionian (natural Major scale)
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
Dorian (tension building, dark, think cowboy westerns)
D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
Phrygian (Arabian middle-eastern sounding, heavily used in metal by metalica, Paul Gilbert, etc)
E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
Lydian (Dream/fantasy like - vai, satriani, John Petrucci use this mode heavily)
F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F
Mixolydian ( Victorious sounding - think Queen - good for resolving scales)
G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G
Aeolian (natural Minor scale, raising the 7th gives us the harmonic minor scale )
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
Locrian ( dimished / haphazard sounding)
B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B

But, as an added bonus, because I'm not super duper smart or incredibly well trained (or even disciplined enough to train myself), if I want to play a certain mode in a certain key, I pretend the first note is the first note of the mode in it's natural scale. For example, if I wanted to play something in A Dorian, I would find an A and pretend it's a D and the rest of the scale kind of appears before me because I know that the B>C interval is a half and the E>F interval is a half. I don't really know where the flats or sharps are in A Dorian, but I don't really need to know that anyway. I just pretend that the A is a D and go at it from there. Granted, this requires a fairly decent command of the shapes of the scales and locations of your primary notes, but it doesn't require me to memorize 84 different permutations of the natural modes. Just which natural mode is associated with each note. If I wanna play F# Locrain, I grab an F#, pretend it's a B, and commence party.

It might not work for everybody and it sure as shit is not going to help you attain your PhD in music, but it's worked for me since I sorted it out in 1993 and I've been called a very good guitarist by more than just my mom.

 

[Spooky_tom]

I disagree with what you say about learning by patterns. Patterns are very useful for people like myself who understand visuals better than words. Don't discount something because it doesn't present all the information you feel is needed. I'm not necessarily directing this at you, more to some of the people who overshot this topic by posting overly complicated responses.

Thank you for the posting the Vinnie Moore videos, they are very helpful.

The problem with that way of thinking in regards to modes is that modes are sounds dictated by the underlying harmony . Not scales and patterns.

 

[Elliott Jeffries]

The problem with that way of thinking in regards to modes is that modes are sounds dictated by the underlying harmony . Not scales and patterns.

So where's the problem if I play C major scale pattern over a G chord? Sounds mixolydian to me. I just don't get the part about it being a problem. I'm starting to believe some people refuse to accept anything except complicated solutions. And they say I have a problem with my thinking?

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

^No, because you do see that the underlying harmony is more important.

Like you said, playing what would be on its own a C major scale over a G7 is going to sound like G mixolydian.

The problem is that there are people who think playing what would be on its own a G mixolydian scale over a Cmaj chord makes it G mixolydian.


A better way to hear the differences is to play the modes not as the same notes in a different order, but to play them all on the same tonic (ex: C lydian, C dorian, C locrian, C mixolydia) over a drone.


Backing harmony is more important when both melody and harmony are present.

To demonstrate this, play a blatantly C major melody by itself, then try it over all the C major chords.

 

[djyngwie]

There's no problem as such if you think that it is easier to figure out a fingering that way (I personally don't). The potential problem is with using every mode like a major scale. Modes is more about knowing what the "important" notes are. IMO this is much less transparant in the derivative approach, that's all.

 

[Elliott Jeffries]

Make your modal understandings as convoluted as you want. Underlying harmony or whatever. The rest of us are going to play major scale patterns of one chord over another chord. You'll say it's wrong for reasons you can't explain coherently. It's the same result in the end.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

The thing you're missing is that the fact that ionian/dorian/phrygian/mixolydian/aeolian/locrian can share the same notes is more of a coincidence than a system of composition. Like I said, C D E F G A B C = D E F G A B C D is paper music. When you put it in order like that, you can say that one is a mode of the other. But music does not occur as a single ascending scale. Harmony exists. Chords exist. Chord progression exists. Tonality exists. You can't ask us to dismiss these truths just because you think it's overly complicated. Not without furnishing convincing proof, anyway.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

Also, depending on the chord, different notes will have varying degress of consonance and dissonance.

Ex:
F would sound consonant over an F, Dm, and G7, but be a dissonance over Am, Em and C

So playing an identical 'C Ionian' melody over the different chords won't always work how you want it to.

 

[Elliott Jeffries]

I agree with the Vinnie Moore videos on modes posted by trickae. Vinnie says the same thing I'm saying. Play the same major scale pattern over different chords in the same key, using root notes of the chord you're playing over. There is nothing to prove, it just is.

 

[Grimbold]

I disagree with what you say about learning by patterns. Patterns are very useful for people like myself who understand visuals better than words. Don't discount something because it doesn't present all the information you feel is needed. I'm not necessarily directing this at you, more to some of the people who overshot this topic by posting overly complicated responses.

for a very long time i was like you, i thought modes were just patterns that you could sweep around the neck. What i failed to realize was that in fact modes are a lot more than that, and if you know how to manipulate them across the neck and exploit their unique feels then your playing become a lot more interesting. I had to see guthrie govan live to understand this issue i was having, ever since that night, February 15 2012 my playing has been revolutionized. My guitar teacher has also helped me come to understand this. Sometimes its not something you can be explained through text, you need a physical musician in front of you proving it to you with every note

otherwise; great thread! keep the responses coming!

 

[celticelk]

I agree with the Vinnie Moore videos on modes posted by trickae. Vinnie says the same thing I'm saying. Play the same major scale pattern over different chords in the same key, using root notes of the chord you're playing over. There is nothing to prove, it just is.

Say you're playing over an extended Em vamp. That triad occurs in three different major scales: C, D, and G. Which one do you play?

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

ALL OF THEM!!

It also occurs in various other scales, which you could also play.

 

[Yo_Wattup]

Everything everyone has said in this thread has blown my mind off of this planet, Like every discussion about modes. Can no-one explain modes in simpler terms?

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

I'm afraid that between Elliot Jeffries and myself, the two principle explanations for this stuff have been laid out from the ground up. Perhaps you are missing a piece of prerequisite information. Do you know the names of the notes? What # (sharp) and ♭ (flat) mean? Do you know what the major scale is? What a scale is in general? What chords are?

There is a lot of jargon involved, but that's the nature of the beast. It is required that we resort to technical language, just as it would be in any other hobby or profession. Since there is only so much that can be shown through text, and since the internet is largely not made for spontaneity where music is concerned, there is a lot of limitation that we have to deal with. If you've never taken a music class or did lessons with a teacher (one that knows what they're doing), then it can be difficult to translate written word into music. I believe that one needs somebody to show them this stuff and answer questions about things as they happen in order to make the initial connections.

 

[stuglue]

With my students I had an exercise that we would work on. I would ask them to give me three chords, we kept it simple just major and minor triads.
I would then show them what modes they could experiment with over the chords. A lot of them would try and stump me by giving chords which weren't diatonic. This was great as I could really get them to hear the modal sound when played in a progression that was quirky.
One student gave me Cmaj - Eb maj- Amaj
Totally unrelated but brilliant to tackle and because there's no 7th degree we could really experiment.
If you want to know some ideas for this progression reply to the thread.

 

[Elliott Jeffries]

Say you're playing over an extended Em vamp. That triad occurs in three different major scales: C, D, and G. Which one do you play?

Whichever sounds the best.

 

[celticelk]

Whichever sounds the best.

And using your approach, that's as much understanding of the music as you'll get. If you're OK with that, fine. I happen to think that it's a rubbish way to approach your musical development. YMMV.