I think people nowadays care more about production than about the music...
- Thread starter yidcorer
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ThePinealGland
Banned
I meant that speakers AREN'T linear. sorry.
Honestly, I don't think Periphery's mixes are even close to the level of quality Joey puts out. I don't care about most of the bands he works with, but he is a very talented producer/mixer. Extremely clear mixes, really aggressive and over the top, tons of little ear candy effects all over the place, really well balanced mixes... I prefer mic'd tones a la Sneap/Suecof/etc., but Joey is really good at EQing the POD to make it sound its absolute best. He knows how to keep everything really crisp and controlled and knows exactly where to emphasize the treble/presence in each instrument. His cymbal samples are extremely detailed and sound great... probably the best cymbal samples for programming drums available at the moment.
I like a lot of Periphery's music, but I don't like the vocal production, the superior drum tones, or the distorted guitar tones. I actually think some of Misha's really old POD stuff sounds better than the recent full length & EP. At least then the tone had some aggression and bite to it. The guitar tone on the full length is rather dull and muffled sounding. I get that they want to have a bit of that jazz fusion kind of vibe to it, but it just cuts all the balls out of it for a metal guitar tone. I find it really ironic that that whole crowd chooses to use digital amp sims and impulse responses, but rave about how natural and organic their passive pickups are at the same time. The Sneap approach is just the opposite... super crisp, clear, processed sounding active pickups into real amps and cabs....
That's interesting. Have a link to where he said that? I quit paying attention to the fractal forums when I sold the Axe-FX. I'm curious about the new signature Thordendal products by DAR coming out... supposedly they tried to address the "static" issue of IRs somehow... not sure if it will make much of a difference, but I do like what I've heard of the amp (just saw a video of Ola from Feared playing it this morning)
Sepultorture
Murder Machine
Good writing, tight playing, efficient tracking and a good mix
That is what I in the least look for in music
But I have definitely seen a lot of nit pickiness in how those go about their mixes. It confounds the shit out of me that someone can like the music but not quite like the production, and this is how they would have done it differently. I like different bands and their different albums all for different reasons, but I have never nit picked their production.
An example of some of that pickiness goes down a lot at the Andy Sneap Forum. I like that forum, its
quite informative. But that production over analyzing of mixes happens a lot there.
For example, we were arguing, because it definitely wasnt a discussion, that Cabinet Impulses were good sounding and worked on their own in a mix, others argued that Impulses were inferior, not the real thing, didnt breath enough. Ok so its not a real speaker, doesnt have that sense of moving air, but in the mix of a song, does it sound good. Ive heard many songs where its all amp sims, cab impulses, superior drummer and DI-ed or bass simmed. You can over analyze it to death about it not being REAL, but yuh know what, DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD is what matters to me.
Ola has done stuff that was all sims, and processed though it may be, in the end it sounds good to me, nice a heavy and tight and thats all I care about. Complaining about what you think about the highs, the lows, what mid range the dominant freqs sit in, seriously now, do we need to argue that to death. Of course you can make a shit mix, you can definitely take something and make it sound shitty, to thin, too boomy, muddy and so on. But to nit pick shit like cab impulses not being real enough, not dynamic enough is just plain silly.
I dont like EMG pickups, they sound too compressed to me, but I have heard countless bands that play EMG and they sound fucking sick. In the end to em ask yourself once simple question
DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD
/thread
That is what I in the least look for in music
But I have definitely seen a lot of nit pickiness in how those go about their mixes. It confounds the shit out of me that someone can like the music but not quite like the production, and this is how they would have done it differently. I like different bands and their different albums all for different reasons, but I have never nit picked their production.
An example of some of that pickiness goes down a lot at the Andy Sneap Forum. I like that forum, its
quite informative. But that production over analyzing of mixes happens a lot there.
For example, we were arguing, because it definitely wasnt a discussion, that Cabinet Impulses were good sounding and worked on their own in a mix, others argued that Impulses were inferior, not the real thing, didnt breath enough. Ok so its not a real speaker, doesnt have that sense of moving air, but in the mix of a song, does it sound good. Ive heard many songs where its all amp sims, cab impulses, superior drummer and DI-ed or bass simmed. You can over analyze it to death about it not being REAL, but yuh know what, DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD is what matters to me.
Ola has done stuff that was all sims, and processed though it may be, in the end it sounds good to me, nice a heavy and tight and thats all I care about. Complaining about what you think about the highs, the lows, what mid range the dominant freqs sit in, seriously now, do we need to argue that to death. Of course you can make a shit mix, you can definitely take something and make it sound shitty, to thin, too boomy, muddy and so on. But to nit pick shit like cab impulses not being real enough, not dynamic enough is just plain silly.
I dont like EMG pickups, they sound too compressed to me, but I have heard countless bands that play EMG and they sound fucking sick. In the end to em ask yourself once simple question
DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD
/thread
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Kurkkuviipale
Another Sinking ....
Well that basically proves my point. It's subjective even if mass approves it.
Joeys mixes are really nice (even though the drum programming/sample replacing in the mixes is really dynamicless and machinelike) I just don't like the sound of his. Also, I'm not an expert on his mixes (have heard like, four or five of the pretty recent ones) so I might think othervice also.
And just to not make you thing I'm a digital fanboy, my favourite mixes come from the real things. Protest The Hero's latest album Scurrilous is ridiculously good not to mention Karnivool, Tool and Porcupine Tree (and DT's latest, but that's kinda old meat).
And I don't think majority of people agrees you with the Pod vs. FX thing. Again, Misha is himself a lot happier with his Axe-FX mixes (according to the fact that he said Axe-FX is the best addition to his recording gear ever) than the POD mixes. As said, you can't argue wiht opinions.
As for the Cliffs quote, I unfortunately don't find it just now. It also might have been second hand info, and this would be third hand information so don't take it 100% seriously. I'm still pretty confident about the fact that he said it, and the point in taking it up was the fact that digital is day by day getting closer and closer to the real thing. It's already pretty damn close, and if you pressume Moore's law to hold true I bet the line of human ear sensing a difference between analogue and digital is not far anymore. But hey, there's always the "real tube amps have THAT magic" -argument.
Kurkkuviipale
Another Sinking ....
We're actually arguing whether the subject is objective or subjective...
So, yeah, troll...
Do you always place the "trolling" label on stuff you aren´t able to comprehend?
Talk about failing at trolling
Does it sound good? Subjective.
Production value/a producer is designed to take the sound and make it as professional as possible. Which is subjective as it varies from person to person.
Hence why some people prefer the raw, un-polished sound with little production value, and others the modern, super-polished sound with lots of production value.
Is there really anything else to the subject?
Kurkkuviipale
Another Sinking ....
That's what I'm saying... People are thinking these things can be sorted by rules or such and I'm saying they cannot. What did I do wrong?
I edited it at least a half a dozen times to get the point across.
The problem is that 3/6 pages are you and that other member arguing over irrelevant topics.
I AGREE with you, but seriously.
Kurkkuviipale
Another Sinking ....
Oh I think we were all the time on the topic.
That, and
Do you find arguing about this subject nice? Yes or no?
That's all that matters.
I don't even know why are you taking part in this argumentation if you think it's all for nothing. If we don't, does it really bother you? I've learned a bunch from this thread and I've had a good conversation with a guy that FOR ONCE doesn't flood the thread with immature arguments. That's rare when arguin in internet.
the unbearable
doesn't djent, sorry
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Real or simulated?
ThePinealGland
Banned
It's not nitpicking. It's all about quality. There are many extremely good mixers on the Sneap forum... these guys are professionals and very good at what they do. In general, people there are a little older and more interested in audio engineering/producing/mixing/mastering/tracking/etc. than your average music fan, or even die-hard prog metal fan (people on this forum). I never said I couldn't appreciate good music without a perfect mix, but good production really helps. When I hear really bad mixes, I just think the project was rushed/not given enough budget/not given enough attention/not worked on by skilled enough people... overall just more amateur sounding. I don't like to hear great bands make mediocre sounding albums, because it's hurting them... It makes them sound less professional, less polished.... Production is important. Many labels care about it a LOT. Why do you think all of this generic crabcore stuff, mainstream club rap, radio rock, is so popular? It's produced well and highly polished. Without highly polished, produced mixes, people wouldn't pay so much attention to those songs... Like it or not, most of the people on the Sneap forum have a higher level of understanding about recording and mixing and are putting out higher quality recordings than other places such as here.
I think a lot of people here have such an anti-mainstream attitude about their taste in music that they just don't care about production quality at all, and if they like the music, they just automatically also like the production. I think that's juvenile... I have no problem separating production/mix quality from music quality. Some of my favorite bands have horrible sounding albums, and some bands I can't stand have great sounding albums, and I have no problem admitting to that...
It kinda sucks for me as I'm sort of stuck in between, as I generally like a lot of the same music as most of this forum. I love prog metal... but I also love audio engineering and awesome productions. I just wish my favorite bands would step it up a little and put out albums that sound as good as the stuff by the bigger metalcore and death metal bands.
It really doesn't help when kids are listening to shitty 128kbps mp3s on laptop speakers, tiny cell phone speakers, ipod ear buds, etc. though...
Again, I don't think it's nitpicking. Whether or not it sounds good is debatable... and just how good is good enough is different from person to person, I guess... but ti's not about the principal of IRs being real versus fake. It's about the differences in sound between real and fake and the reason why we prefer mic'd up cabs. Ola is a great player no matter what he plays through, but I definitely think his best tones have come from mic'd up amps and cabs
ThePinealGland
Banned
I don't like either band, but his mixes for Oceano and Emmure are ridiculous. So heavy, so clear, great atmosphere and super polished. His drums are definitely more on the robotic modern metal side, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Really, Periphery and all of the other djenty bands have pretty damn compressed and robotic drums too... they all just use those tiny jazz snares to try to show dynamics with all of the ghost notes and snare rolls. I do think superior shows a good level of dynamics in the snare samples... I just don't like the sound of the samples themselves.
Also, listen to the I Am Abomination album to see an example of what Joey can do with a mainstream release featuring entirely programmed drums AND entirely programmed bass (trillian). That level of quality is well above the typical programmed superior + POD/Axe-FX demos you hear around here. I know people were excited about Bulb's stuff because they started realizing just how much could be done at a home studio........ but what they don't realize is you can do even better than that in a humble home studio with the right knowledge/skills/gear...
Just because he likes it more doesn't mean it's better or that professional mixers would agree that his axe-fx mixes are better. I don't mean to single out Periphery at all, by the way. Let's be realistic here, Misha got the Axe-FX because Meshuggah was using it at the time and there was hype I believe from Cynic and also Devin Townsend starting to use them around the same time. Tosin from AAL and bands like After The Burial, Born of Osiris, etc. started using them after that because Misha was using them (and of course Meshuggah). It's people copying each other, and it's definitely a fad of some sorts. A lot of these guys don't know all that much about recording or mixing. They just want to own the cool new toy that their favorite guitarists are using. Even though I think Tesseract's album doesn't sound that great either, I was happy to see Acle be more open and honest about what he thought of the Axe-FX instead of just hopping on the bandwagon and proclaiming it the best thing ever.
sevenstringj
Banned
I actually LOVE the production on ...And Justice for All! 
And BTW, it wasn't just the production that was less than pristine back in the day. The playing wasn't pristine either. Take Led Zeppelin for example. You'd have to quantize the shit out of their music for it to sell today.
But with digital came the ability to do endless takes and quantize, and eventually autotune. So people have come to expect perfection. And of course louder = moar better.
And BTW, it wasn't just the production that was less than pristine back in the day. The playing wasn't pristine either. Take Led Zeppelin for example. You'd have to quantize the shit out of their music for it to sell today.
But with digital came the ability to do endless takes and quantize, and eventually autotune. So people have come to expect perfection. And of course louder = moar better.
Bloody_Inferno
Silence is Violence
That just hit something there.
It turns out that because of all of the Axe Fx users, it's set a standard in terms of musical production. All the afformentioned bands have come to great success in creating great produced music. I'm not gonna get into the whole "AxeFx is awesome/sterile" or "subjective" arguments as I've already stated my opinion on my first posts. I will say that the Axe Fx is really good, and has become successful in leading the way to the future of music and music production.
Which leads me to this: All of the bands mentioned have not only had great success, but have inspired a whole legion of players following suit. Just look at the majority of djent/AxeFx based recordings in this very forum. That's all well and good. However, a lot of time and money invested in state of the art gear, a majority of these players (generally speaking, I'm not gonna point the finger), have forgotten an important factor. And it's the very important factor that has made Periphery and the mentioned successful bands being separated above from the legion of masses = SONGS.
Songwriting and craftsmanship is what made these bands what they are. Their production magnifies it. All of those who have focused the acquisiton of gear before writing songs have either decided to only be a bedroom guitarist doing covers, or have completely missed the point. Just reading the OP again and it looks like his statements were giving a hidden jab at all the aspiring guitarists following bulb's footsteps (whether it was intentional or not, I don't know). There's too much focus on getting a fantastic guitar sound with your exensive gear, to only play a bunch of riffs that's thrown together for the sake of it? A lot of the showcased songs literally only follow their heroes and lack their own identity. At least it well produced and polished so even if the song is terrible, it sounds great through the speakers.
To these guys, production has become far more important than the music. Looks like this thread's going full circle.
Just reading the OP again and it looks like his statements were giving a hidden jab at all the aspiring guitarists following bulb's footsteps (whether it was intentional or not, I don't know). There's too much focus on getting a fantastic guitar sound with your exensive gear, to only play a bunch of riffs that's thrown together for the sake of it? A lot of the showcased songs literally only follow their heroes and lack their own identity. At least it well produced and polished so even if the song is terrible, it sounds great through the speakers.
Yes, that´s what I meant and yes, it was pretty much a hidden jab (not anymore)
Kurkkuviipale
Another Sinking ....
Well if that's the case with people @ SSO, I don't know what to say. I'm still doing music for the love of it, believe me or not. I just still do think production is a way for people to communicate a little more with music, in a way you never had before.
Scar Symmetry
Ex Whiny Bitch
I love good mixes. I love good songs with mediocre production, too.
I love spending time to get that perfect mix cause I love tweaking and perceive it as an art. I'm a tweaker. I wont settle for less when I know I can do better. I don't have expensive equipment, which in turn fuels my desire to push it as far as I can. Attention to detail and striving for improvement is why I dabble in recording, and ultimately why I pick up the guitar the end of the day. Knowing I have a relatively decent mix to back up my writing expands my creativity exponentially. If it doesn't for some, that's too bad. This proves just one thing, no one are the same. And thank god for that.
I love spending time to get that perfect mix cause I love tweaking and perceive it as an art. I'm a tweaker. I wont settle for less when I know I can do better. I don't have expensive equipment, which in turn fuels my desire to push it as far as I can. Attention to detail and striving for improvement is why I dabble in recording, and ultimately why I pick up the guitar the end of the day. Knowing I have a relatively decent mix to back up my writing expands my creativity exponentially. If it doesn't for some, that's too bad. This proves just one thing, no one are the same. And thank god for that.
Kurkkuviipale
Another Sinking ....
I like the fact that this guy can actually stand behind his words. Keep up the awesome mixes dude!
