I unknowingly bought a Kiesel that someone made a 22 page thread complaining about.

[Lord Voldemort]

I had a Kiesel build that was upwards of 3K$ and wouldn't stand up to an Ibanez Premium. If they hadn't gouged the fretboard with a circular sander and had actually leveled the frets, or just made it 100% right with no cost to me, I'd have kept it and probably gotten another. They blew me off almost completely, but were very eager to remind me that an option 50 cannot be returned. I feel like I mention this every time I talk about Kiesel, sadly.

I will say it was the best sounding guitar I've ever had, well on most frets it was. I took such a hard hit just selling it and getting some money back that I'm never buying another Kiesel. They can chug my entire cock before that happens. Used market though I might take a poke here and there like I said.

Considering that situation, your unbiased perspective and reasoned contributions here are super admirable. If a company did that to me I'd rip them to shreds indefinitely.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Man, I really don't think so. I think that people think of boutique guitars as these unicorns, or like an MMORPG weapon upgrade. My current guitar is a blue rare at $1200, but for $4k I can afford the purple legendary guitar that looks like it's made of fire, and that'll give me +2 endurance and -4 bitches. That hasn't really been my experience though, it doesn't really seem to be the experience either.

My own experiences at NAMM playing the $5-20k guitars and then playing the $1k Vola or something just a ways over and struggling to see a tangible difference notwithstanding,[...]

Just something worth considering, it's fairly common knowledge that vendors will bring the best examples of their work to trade shows and NAMM is no exception. Some of the instruments on display there are not even built by the same people or at the same location as the production models.

I do totally agree with your point though. I have a custom guitar that I shelled out close to $6,000 for and is nowhere near being anywhere close to the realm of something I can responsibly afford. But I did it anyway because I [w̶a̶s̶ a̶ s̶t̶u̶p̶i̶d̶ k̶i̶d̶] respected the builder, his work "had mojo," and I could get it made to be exactly what I wanted. It's the best guitar I've ever played and I'm so glad I pulled the trigger.

.....buuuuuuttttttt....on a fundamental level, it doesn't blow the doors off of my other guitars. I have an RG920 that's easily 95% of the way there and that isn't even a Prestige trim ibby. If you aren't aware of that going in, or of the fact that you're likely going to have an instrument that's got it's own quirks due the nature of being a handmade instrument, you're likely going to be disappointed. Thankfully though I think there's a much wider understanding of this these days. A decade or so ago the 'legendary weapon' syndrome was a lot more prominent imo.

 

[nightsprinter]

Everything unironically circles back to used prestige and it doesn't take a tea leaf reader to see it.

 

[slim231990]

Everything unironically circles back to used prestige and it doesn't take a tea leaf reader to see it.

I will say it's hard to beat the quality goods of a country that takes it honor so seriously. A country that even today people commit suicide due to their honor being offended. METAL!

 

[Lord Voldemort]

I really don't like Arnold's channel. Maybe he's gotten better but he was on my radar when the channel was new, he was not a very good player, his audio and video production were both rather poor, his on camera skills were poor, yet he was still soliciting sponsors and free gear when he was like sub-25k subscribers.

You can get away with a couple of those things but not all of them without feeling like you just made a channel for free stuff.

I like Arnold as a dude, I've met him once or twice and he seems super nice. I appreciate the dedication to his reviews as well, he really looks at every imperfection of all the guitars that he gets and I think he means well by doing that.

I do think that his level of nit-picking is counterproductive, though, and he gives me a bit of Karen vibes in his reviews. I just think that he takes it very seriously and really wants to dive in, but when you couple the arbitrary nature of a lot of his critiques with the conclusions that he teaches because of them, and throw in his low proficiency on the guitar and his poor production value it's just a rough package. Things like pointing out small tool marks on the edge of a fretboard or even the kind of foam used to control pickup lowering/raising and saying shit like 'you shouldn't expect this on a $___ guitar' while somehow always finding something on every guitar regardless of price just shouts KAREN to me. He sincerely reminds me of a lot of melodramatic forum posters, that probably don't even make music but sure have a lot to say about the quality of guitars. Again, good dude though. He means well.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Things like pointing out small tool marks on the edge of a fretboard or even the kind of foam used to control pickup lowering/raising and saying shit like 'you shouldn't expect this on a $___ guitar' while somehow always finding something on every guitar regardless of price just shouts KAREN to me.

My money is on him going absolutely all in on that Legator being the launchpad for his channel as the reason for this.
If you're "the guy that will detail absolutely everything wrong with the guitar" and that's your niche it doesn't matter what I hand you, you're going to try your damnedest to find something.

 

[nightsprinter]

My money is on him going absolutely all in on that Legator being the launchpad for his channel as the reason for this.
If you're "the guy that will detail absolutely everything wrong with the guitar" and that's your niche it doesn't matter what I hand you, you're going to try your damnedest to find something.

I'll be honest and say that I have this problem and it goes hand in hand with some of the little obsessive compulsive idiosyncrasies I apparently have. It's prevented me from enjoying many instruments as I get the "once ya see it-itis" and then start a mental battle on whether I can be okay with "settling" for something with flaws. I can only speak for myself but it's actually kind of a problem in a couple ways, but something I'm at least cognizant of and working at being better with - accepting things in life for what they are and not letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor, the enemy of the people. It will keep you cramped and insane your whole life, and it is the main obstacle between you and a shitty first draft. I think perfectionism is based on the obsessive belief that if you run carefully enough, hitting each stepping-stone just right, you won't have to die. The truth is that you will die anyway and that a lot of people who aren't even looking at their feet are going to do a whole lot better than you, and have a lot more fun while they're doing it. - Anne Lamott

Been trying to remember that ^

 

[SalsaWood]

They must've done a few things right to have you come back for second helpings.

Outside of the flaws I mentioned my build was fucking outstanding. I know they can make good guitars, I just don't feel like doing a leap of faith in their custom shop again. Unless the seller screws me over I think buying from the used rack is where the sweet spot is for me.

 

[gunch]

I really don't like Arnold's channel. Maybe he's gotten better but he was on my radar when the channel was new, he was not a very good player, his audio and video production were both rather poor, his on camera skills were poor, yet he was still soliciting sponsors and free gear when he was like sub-25k subscribers.

You can get away with a couple of those things but not all of them without feeling like you just made a channel for free stuff.

so he was trucker shawn before trucker shawn

 

[Lord Voldemort]

My money is on him going absolutely all in on that Legator being the launchpad for his channel as the reason for this.
If you're "the guy that will detail absolutely everything wrong with the guitar" and that's your niche it doesn't matter what I hand you, you're going to try your damnedest to find something.

Totally. It's really hard to carve any kind of niche out on youtube. Every day almost I stumble upon a great channel with high quality content that has very little community, and it's a shame. So when you make a splash and get a video with hundreds of thousands of views, you'd be stupid to not keep that going.

Just look at me, I used to be just any other guy right? Posting content, shredding, whatever, but now look at me. I post one thread about a Kiesel that's nearly to 22 pages now and boom, tens of thousands of subscribers, millions of views, all from this one thread. If that's not an American success story I don't know what is.

 

[gunch]

you're on your way to make your own made in indonesia guitar brand

 

[Randy]

I like Arnold as a dude, I've met him once or twice and he seems super nice. I appreciate the dedication to his reviews as well, he really looks at every imperfection of all the guitars that he gets and I think he means well by doing that.

I do think that his level of nit-picking is counterproductive, though, and he gives me a bit of Karen vibes in his reviews. I just think that he takes it very seriously and really wants to dive in, but when you couple the arbitrary nature of a lot of his critiques with the conclusions that he teaches because of them, and throw in his low proficiency on the guitar and his poor production value it's just a rough package. Things like pointing out small tool marks on the edge of a fretboard or even the kind of foam used to control pickup lowering/raising and saying shit like 'you shouldn't expect this on a $___ guitar' while somehow always finding something on every guitar regardless of price just shouts KAREN to me. He sincerely reminds me of a lot of melodramatic forum posters, that probably don't even make music but sure have a lot to say about the quality of guitars. Again, good dude though. He means well.

Honestly, no shade on him as a person.

I don't think his channel checks any of the boxes for getting the "send me free gear to demo" thing. I just watched his BC Rich demo from a couple months ago and he opens with saying well I've been trying to get them to send me a guitar for a couple years now. Alright well take a hint then? And I remember the bulk of his videos I watched had the same explicit discussion about how much trouble he did/didn't have getting the company to send him something.

As far as his reviews, yeah they do sound like nitpicky forumite narrative.

I think there's right and wrong ways of going about that style. I recently got into Superfastmatt's channel, and he's basically sarcastic about everything. Everything has a "its not perfect, its not really great but its good enough and realistically that's what you should expect". Which I think matches with reality based on my experiences (as an owner, repair guy and builder). If I say something is good, I think its implied there's minor flaws etc but nothing raises to the level of defect or problem. *If* someone wants to have a discussion about a guitar under the microscope, fine but I think its worth being explicit how common any of those things are (like sanding marks on a fretboard) and whether or not they principally make any difference.

To that end, yeah some of these guys make videos that are just defect porn that keyboard warriors with no gear budget watch as an excuse for why they don't by X piece of gear. "Ha, my Schecter Diamond series doesn't have any of those flaws!" (when actually, they probably do).

 

[Jon Pearson]

I have a Carvin dc135 and it's really nice.

I've now had a couple of boutique level guitars, and maybe it's because I play a lot of guitar opposed to staring at them, like 4-6 hours a day kind of a lot of guitar, I genuinely don't understand the difference. I was always bummed when I got a super fancy guitar and it was just a guitar, and I'd play it back to back with any of my other guitars and always leave the experience wondering why I bought something so extravagant.

It's a fucking guitar. I like Kiesel/Carvin quite a bit because they're well made and reasonably priced and that's really all I need. They can do the fancy boutique thing if that's what you're going for, but they can also do the bare bones player guitar that you don't care so much about the pick scratches accumulating as you play it that plays better than anything else in its price range.

Even when Jeff says something stupid or if they have some weird no-return rules, they're still kind of my go to for that reason.

This is why I can buy into the catch-phrase of the forum, "buy a used prestige." At one point (less now), a used Prestige was the best answer. It was the cheapest way to get to the top of the playability arc. Are used Prestiges always the prettiest? Nah. But they are the standard of a well put-together guitar for a (somewhat) reasonable price.

Much beyond Prestige, you are just getting fancier aesthetics or specialty stuff, which is fine if that's what you want.

 

[TedEH]

I remember a time when people used to say you could get any basic guitar, pay for a proper setup, and you'd be just as well off as having spent on a more "premium" instrument. It's supposedly "just the fit and finish" until special master luthier mojo gets involved. A new prestige is expensive as balls, and folks love those, but aren't they just factory made guitars? It might be a factory with good QC, but it's not a master luthier imbuing each specimen with magic luthier mojo to anyones particular tastes or specs - half the time the pickups get ripped out on day one.

 

[lurè]

What once was "premium" has now become standard.
Even swapping pickups, which was taken from granted before, Is now not that necessary.
Most brands have have really upped the game regarding pickups or they equip mid tier instruments with decent ones.

 

[Jon Pearson]

I remember a time when people used to say you could get any basic guitar, pay for a proper setup, and you'd be just as well off as having spent on a more "premium" instrument. It's supposedly "just the fit and finish" until special master luthier mojo gets involved. A new prestige is expensive as balls, and folks love those, but aren't they just factory made guitars? It might be a factory with good QC, but it's not a master luthier imbuing each specimen with magic luthier mojo to anyones particular tastes or specs - half the time the pickups get ripped out on day one.

What once was "premium" has now become standard.
Even swapping pickups, which was taken from granted before, Is now not that necessary.
Most brands have have really upped the game regarding pickups or they equip mid tier instruments with decent ones.

I still mostly agree with the idea that spending money on a good setup from a luthier is going to do a lot more than spending the same $2-300 additional to buy more guitar. The caveat is there is a bottom level of the "good stuff" that buys you nice fit and finish and a basic level of QC that makes that set up much easier or unnecessary, and it is still nice to have a nicer guitar even if it doesn't necessarily play any better than the cheap guitar with a good setup.

Case study: I had two Indo Sabers that I used for gigging guitars. They were S7420s, so very much affordable on the used (sub-$500 US). I had them set up by Andy Townsend who does all the BTBAM stuff and has done stuff for AAL and other big time proglodytes. He went ALL IN on these things, shaving down the fretboards to correct for neck issues, refrets, electronics clean up, little finish touch ups, full set ups, everything was perfectly done, you could not do more to those guitars to make them play any better.

I played the hell out of those things, and they were great. BUT - they still don't feel quite as good as the RGD3127 that I had or my current RG2027XL, and I didn't need Andy to set those up, they were solid enough that I could do it myself. I've owned and played much pricier guitars, and I don't they are any better than the Prestiges, but there isn't many cheaper guitars (my Vola, perhaps?) that get me that off the shelf.

 

[SalsaWood]

I remember a time when people used to say you could get any basic guitar, pay for a proper setup, and you'd be just as well off as having spent on a more "premium" instrument. It's supposedly "just the fit and finish" until special master luthier mojo gets involved. A new prestige is expensive as balls, and folks love those, but aren't they just factory made guitars? It might be a factory with good QC, but it's not a master luthier imbuing each specimen with magic luthier mojo to anyones particular tastes or specs - half the time the pickups get ripped out on day one.

I still say this. The "gud enuff to write and perform an album" guitar is very affordable these days. Might be tuning it a lot, hardware might not be as resilient, finish won't be crazy, but it can get there despite all that with the right tech job.

 

[nightsprinter]

I still say this. The "gud enuff to write and perform an album" guitar is very affordable these days. Might be tuning it a lot, hardware might not be as resilient, finish won't be crazy, but it can get there despite all that with the right tech job.

Throw some dope pickups in a gio, record some slam death metal, and no one's gonna know the wiser. Guarantee a lot of great records were recorded on budget guitars.

 

[nightsprinter]

Actually I take that back. Don't even need dope pickups anymore with all the free EQ and mixing plug-ins these days.

 

[Randy]

Throw some dope pickups in a gio, record some slam death metal, and no one's gonna know the wiser. Guarantee a lot of great records were recorded on budget guitars.

Yeah good thing their side dots weren't crooked. Would've ruined that album.