Is Kirk Hammett the worst guitar icon of all time?

[bostjan]

Kirk's stuff was never that technical, and a lot of times, his stuff is not that discernable as to what he is playing. This wasn't really much of a proven point, but okay.

So, easy recap. I asked how you measure how good a guitarist is. You responded that his ability to replicate leads varies in quality. I responded and asked what guitarist defies that. You said Paul Gilbert. I found a video of Paul Gilbert clearly not at his best in 5 seconds.

My 1st point was that this stuff is horribly subjective. My 2nd point was that everybody eventually declines. I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with either of those, but I'm still not seeing how Kirk is bad.

To me, he's a guitarist who once played some adequate leads for some iconic songs from forever ago. He was never the same calibur as Paul Gilbert, Marty Friedman, or Yngwie. But he's also not a Kerry King or an Ace Frehley. Also, Yngwie is no longer even able to play his own stuff half as good as half his fans anymore, so maybe judging Kirk 2023 vs Kirk 1986 isn't really a fair gauge.

Like has been said a dozen times in this thread, Kirk fits the glove very well of "I've been playing for a few months and want something challenging to learn that sounds iconic but doesn't require superhuman ability." So stuff like Master of Puppets or Seek and Destroy can make a stepping stone for budding players. Not everyone is able to pick up a guitar and learn Cliffs of Dover for their first solo piece. Likewise, no one goes from Come as You Are straight to Under a Glass Moon.

Is Kirk over-rated? Yeah, they all are... all the icons. The guys really doing crazy stuff are the ones the icons listen to and that the general population doesn't understand. But there are a lot worse than Kirk.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

So, easy recap. I asked how you measure how good a guitarist is. You responded that his ability to replicate leads varies in quality. I responded and asked what guitarist defies that. You said Paul Gilbert. I found a video of Paul Gilbert clearly not at his best in 5 seconds.

My 1st point was that this stuff is horribly subjective. My 2nd point was that everybody eventually declines. I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with either of those, but I'm still not seeing how Kirk is bad.

To me, he's a guitarist who once played some adequate leads for some iconic songs from forever ago. He was never the same calibur as Paul Gilbert, Marty Friedman, or Yngwie. But he's also not a Kerry King or an Ace Frehley. Also, Yngwie is no longer even able to play his own stuff half as good as half his fans anymore, so maybe judging Kirk 2023 vs Kirk 1986 isn't really a fair gauge.

Like has been said a dozen times in this thread, Kirk fits the glove very well of "I've been playing for a few months and want something challenging to learn that sounds iconic but doesn't require superhuman ability." So stuff like Master of Puppets or Seek and Destroy can make a stepping stone for budding players. Not everyone is able to pick up a guitar and learn Cliffs of Dover for their first solo piece. Likewise, no one goes from Come as You Are straight to Under a Glass Moon.

Is Kirk over-rated? Yeah, they all are... all the icons. The guys really doing crazy stuff are the ones the icons listen to and that the general population doesn't understand. But there are a lot worse than Kirk.

Paul Gilbert "not at his best" is still not that far off from "his best." I'm not sure why you thought that was a "hahaha, you're wrong!" like you think it is, but okay. There is a difference between cycles n gear Lynch and Kirk the last 15 years vs Paul Gilbert. Some of the videos I've seen of Kirk online would be indecipherable if not for the rhythm guitars. Kirk was never that clean to begin with and his level of care has steadily declined since the Load/Reload era. In fairness, Nuno Bettencourt, at least on record, isn't that great these days either. His solos on the last record sounded way too "I'm just winging it" for my tastes. Still, I'm sure Nuno's abilities are still there live, even if I don't care for his lead writing these days.

As for Yngwie, there is discussion that his playing suffered quite a bit after a car wreck (I think it left him in a coma for a few weeks or something like that).

 

[Halowords]

I think Kirk is a very good guitarist and a genuinely good guy. I also think he's more rooted in certain structures, and by his own admission writes things in the pentatonic scale almost exclusively and loves the Wah Pedal like...fill in your simile. He likes it a LOT. And the band took a simpler, more mainstream approach after ...And Justice For All by design. So his rationale is that the simpler pentatonic scale stuff better fits their music.

But he also put out some fairly complex riffs and solos in AJFA, which was arguably a fairly Prog-Rock album in some regards. I think he earned icon status by virtue of his playing, and by being the lead guitarist in the most commercially successful metal band of all time. His stuff is simpler from the Black Album to the present, but he's still a good guitarist. Are there better guitarists? I think so. Are there guitarists putting out more technical, complex, and rich musical content these days? I certainly think so. But it's not like he suddenly stopped being a good guitarist, nor did those past feats cease to exist. But to make the claim he's the worst guitar icon of all time seems like a pretty hard sell. Even Mustaine's giving him props these days. That isn't the end-all-be-all of endorsements, nor should it be, but he's even acknowledging the hate Hammett's getting is a little weird, and I happen to agree with him.

Dave Mustaine Now Says Kirk Hammett Did Him the 'Honor' of Keeping His Metallica Solos

See what else he had to say.

loudwire.com

 

[bostjan]

Paul Gilbert "not at his best" is still not that far off from "his best." I'm not sure why you thought that was a "hahaha, you're wrong!" like you think it is, but okay. There is a difference between cycles n gear Lynch and Kirk the last 15 years vs Paul Gilbert. Some of the videos I've seen of Kirk online would be indecipherable if not for the rhythm guitars. Kirk was never that clean to begin with and his level of care has steadily declined since the Load/Reload era. In fairness, Nuno Bettencourt, at least on record, isn't that great these days either. His solos on the last record sounded way too "I'm just winging it" for my tastes. Still, I'm sure Nuno's abilities are still there live, even if I don't care for his lead writing these days.

As for Yngwie, there is discussion that his playing suffered quite a bit after a car wreck (I think it left him in a coma for a few weeks or something like that).

Yeah, at least Kirk wasn't in a bus wreck that could have been fatal or anything like that in between when he was considered at his peak and when people started ragging on him.

I guess I just don't get the whole idea of trying to start up a queue for everyone to shit on him. Did he kick your dog or something?

Should I go start a thread about how much Joey Belladonna is clearly no Mike Patton?!

 

[jco5055]

Literally the second album I ever bought, and that track is still pretty much unique against all the metal that I've heard since.

I've always wondered with the more melodic and cleaner parts of that album, how much of that was Kirk and how much of it was James. Asking seriously, since I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure other than the explicit leads it's all James, as in the liner notes there's something like "all acoustic, melodic, harmonized guitars, and the second (maybe first) lead in 'To Live is to Die' by James Hetfield"

So they went out of their way to not give Kirk any credit lol

 

[RevDrucifer]

Yeah, at least Kirk wasn't in a bus wreck that could have been fatal or anything like that in between when he was considered at his peak and when people started ragging on him.

I guess I just don't get the whole idea of trying to start up a queue for everyone to shit on him. Did he kick your dog or something?

Should I go start a thread about how much Joey Belladonna is clearly no Mike Patton?!

Right around 2:10 this gets relevant -

 

[StevenC]

Seems like the cosmic bargain is you can't be a nice guy and a good guitarist at the same time.

But somehow I fail at both.

Wait, has no one addressed this?

Marty Friedman

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

Yeah, at least Kirk wasn't in a bus wreck that could have been fatal or anything like that in between when he was considered at his peak and when people started ragging on him.

I guess I just don't get the whole idea of trying to start up a queue for everyone to shit on him. Did he kick your dog or something?

Should I go start a thread about how much Joey Belladonna is clearly no Mike Patton?!

Okay, cool. You get the last word and win a prize. Lol

 

[bostjan]

Okay, cool. You get the last word and win a prize. Lol

If it's not a Nobel Prize from its peak in the 1920's, nor an Oscar from the 1960's, I don't want it - probably the worst prize ever.

Right around 2:10 this gets relevant -

I remember reading that story ages ago. Reminds me how a lot of my former bandmates were such assholes at that age, too. I'd say I was, too, but I'm sure I still am. Never hurt anyone's dog at least.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

That person's attempt at a Dave Mustaine impersonation keeps wavering between a subpar impersonation of Dave and an okay talking voice (not promo voice) impersonation of Randy, but without committing.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I'm pretty sure other than the explicit leads it's all James, as in the liner notes there's something like "all acoustic, melodic, harmonized guitars, and the second (maybe first) lead in 'To Live is to Die' by James Hetfield"

So they went out of their way to not give Kirk any credit lol

To me that's key. I feel like that stuff has much more of a James vibe than Kirk vibe.

Even on Death Magnetic I preferred James's solo for Suicide and Redemption than Kirk's.

Aren't most of the Nothing Else Matters leads James too?

 

[jco5055]

To me that's key. I feel like that stuff has much more of a James vibe than Kirk vibe.

Even on Death Magnetic I preferred James's solo for Suicide and Redemption than Kirk's.

Aren't most of the Nothing Else Matters leads James too?

all of nothing else matters is James solo wise

 

[zappatton2]

Didn't Hammett have a solo album recently that folks were raving about?

Either way, I'm not comfortable ragging on any guitarists who are verifiably better than me. So that makes all of them. All the guitarists.

 

[McBrain]

Kerry's got riffs at least

If only Kirk hadn’t lost his phone.

 

[WolleK]

Man, he can keep up every night with Hetfield´s right hand.... so he must be good.

 

[nightflameauto]

Man, he can keep up every night with Hetfield´s right hand.... so he must be good.

In his twenties, that was something special. At their ages now? With the addition of Lars slowly devolving into the stereotypical "always speeding up" drummer? It's some type of miracle.

 

[USMarine75]

Was gonna say EVH, but then remembered that 2004 tour with Sammy Hagar.

EVH never had any technical issues nor decline in his playing. His struggles were due purely to his next-level alcoholism.

Jeff Beck, Marty Friedman, and Paul Gilbert are (or were up until the end) nice guys by all account and still playing at elite levels.

The fact that someone can find PG having an off night and think that’s representative of some kind of decline is ridiculous. I saw GNR and Axl had travelers diarrhea. He was off that night. He probably doesn’t always have travelers diarrhea.

But typically I think the guitarists that fall off a cliff first are the ones that rely on speed (much like MLB pitchers). Guys like Andy Timmons and Satriani are less likely to have issues, whereas guys like PG and Petrucci will eventually have trouble pushing the envelope the way they did when they were younger. PG might have issues always nailing his fastest stuff every night, but that makes up about 5% of his catalog anyways.

 

[BenjaminW]

@USMarine75 Yeah EVH was pretty much always firing on all cylinders even during his struggles with songs such as It's About Time or Catherine for example that he did during that time. I thought about not mentioning that tour but figured it was gonna come up in the thread either way honestly.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

EVH never had any technical issues nor decline in his playing. His struggles were due purely to his next-level alcoholism.

Jeff Beck, Marty Friedman, and Paul Gilbert are (or were up until the end) nice guys by all account and still playing at elite levels.

The fact that someone can find PG having an off night and think that’s representative of some kind of decline is ridiculous. I saw GNR and Axl had travelers diarrhea. He was off that night. He probably doesn’t always have travelers diarrhea.

But typically I think the guitarists that fall off a cliff first are the ones that rely on speed (much like MLB pitchers). Guys like Andy Timmons and Satriani are less likely to have issues, whereas guys like PG and Petrucci will eventually have trouble pushing the envelope the way they did when they were younger. PG might have issues always nailing his fastest stuff every night, but that makes up about 5% of his catalog anyways.

Well, alcoholism and whatever he was smoking which completely ruined his teeth and left burn marks all over his amp.

The notion of PG playing at only 98% of his power as some sort of "haha, you're wrong!" moment was absolutely hilarious.

 

[tedtan]

How old are we talking, here? Guthrie Govan is over 50 and still rips, and Michael Angelo Batio is over 60 and still out shreds most people.