Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack

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TheBlackBard

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We have any research yet on the majority of the economic status of Palestinian citizens? I want to know if it's still a viable option to just "move" in a very inhospitable landscape, not that that should be looked at as an option anyways, since the alternative is the dirty "g" word, and no one likes hearing that, even if what they're saying does fit that they're being rather flippant about it.
 

Randy

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We have any research yet on the majority of the economic status of Palestinian citizens?

The GDP per Capita in Palestine is equivalent to 25 percent of the world's average. GDP per Capita in Palestine averaged 2543.61 USD from 1994 until 2022, reaching an all time high of 3095.50 USD in 2022 and a record low of 1836.97 USD in 2002.

 

TheBlackBard

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Alright, I'm gonna be honest. I'm not the smartest person here. I'm terrible with numbers and their meaning. Long story short, is it feasible for them to just do it, or no?
 

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ADADAD

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Israel are supposed to be the "good guys" here, but coming down on the wrong side of this dynamic based on history.
World war 2 is a bad comparison, for multiple reasons. One example- Germany invades Poland then USSR, civilians in those places die. USSR drives them back, but still most of the war in this effort is in USSR and Poland, more of their civilians die. Since most of the war took place outside of Germany, relatively few of their civilians died.
If you insist on comparing to WW2, Israel is still closer to the allies in this conflict by comparison to Hamas who fire rockets into cities and also commit civilian massacres such as Oct 7th. But hey at least you looked at the article and data, if only to confirm your biases, so: kudos.
Ad hominem. You can do better - up your game or stop wasting my time.
Guess they don't teach self-awareness and irony in Never Neverland either. I'm starting to be concerned about their education system.
An Israeli spokesperson just claimed over the past few days that their killing [only] two civilians for each Hamas fighter would be a good ratio. Don’t try to equate that with the US’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (not that those wars are a benchmark for the right way to do things, either).
You mean the Iraq war with a civilian casualty rate of 77%? While fighting in simpler conditions e.g. less densely populated areas?
This whataboutism doesn’t work.
Not whataboutism, as I am not mentioning this to take away from anything else. It is to point out the hypocrisy of the pro-Palestine posters who claim to care for civilians on both sides but ignore Israeli hostages in Hamas captivity. Also hostages being kept in UNRWA employees' houses is a particularly interesting bit of information but no one seems to want to talk about it... oh well.
That is a short sighted, task oriented way of operating (e.g., destroy Hamas regardless of cost). This may work for the specific short term goal of eliminating Hamas, but it will bite Israel in the ass in terms of the overall hatred towards Israel it generates in the region and the number of new, even worse, terrorist organizations it spawns in the wake of Hamas.
This argument was used multiple times throughout the thread, no one seems to care how suicide bombers, indiscriminate rocket fire, and the Oct 7 massacre affect the Israeli population.
And while Israeli citizens are in danger, they can be short-sighted. When the immediate danger passes, and when the hostages are returned, long term solutions can start to be considered.
That’s not the correct framework or perspective from which to view this IMO. When the IDF has sent all civilians to the south while simultaneously preventing them from leaving Gaza, do they need to bomb the building in the first place? What if instead, since the IDF is already on the ground, they secured the building, sent in troops to clear it, searched it to ensure that it actually holds the weapons/control centers/etc. that IDF intelligence claims it holds, kept civilians back at a safe distance, then surgically destroyed the relevant portions of the building and/or tunnels as necessary minimizing damage to civilian infrastructure as well as to the civilians themselves?
-IDF is on the ground only thanks to the air strikes and artillery.
-If civilians were kept at a safe distance, you can air strike the building and avoid loss of life completely. Do you value a residential building more than the human lives?
Would that put more Israeli soldiers at risk? Yes, but they are combatants, not civilians, so they should be the ones taking on that risk (alongside the Hamas fighters), not the civilians. It comes with the job.
More than double of the IDF is reservists. Two months ago they were civilians, and are there because they have to be, not because they want to. The rest are drafted due to law. Not the same as e.g. U.S military where people are by choice. Can't say "comes with the job" if it's literally not their job.
Would it be worthwhile given the above? Absolutely, as Israel has a duty to protect its citizens, including those Palestinian civilians not affiliated with Hamas.
There are Arab and Palestinian citizens of Israel. Gaza is not where they live. Their government is Hamas, who don't seem too concerned with their well-being.
Why is this last point so difficult for you and ADADAD to comprehend?
Because it is factually incorrect?
I won't speak for narad on this one but the other guy and the general subtext is that:

1.) Palestinian lives don't matter,

2.) Palestinians = Hamas,

3.) As long as there's a Palestine (or Gaza, or West Bank), violence against Israel will continue,

4.) The only solution is extermination and/or annexation


So you're going to keep getting counterintuitive explanations as to why civilians HAVE to die, and in large numbers, to "stop" the smaller number of unsophisticated terrorists.
Please point to any place where I make any of these claims. Of course you'd be wasting your time trying since I don't agree with any of them, unless point 4 refers to extermination of Hamas rather than Palestinians, in which case I agree. You should know that since not too long ago I was discussing peace plans and two state solutions here, suggesting the Palestinians should have agreed to them. You should also know that since you liked this post by me way back on page 4.
Fully advocating the slaughter of Hamas, not innocent Palestinians.
Maybe you keep imagining the subtext you mentioned to accuse me of being genocidal and racist so you can dismiss what I say without addressing it? Or could be other reasons that aren't obvious to me. SSOers do work in mysterious ways.
 

Randy

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You should also know that since you liked this post by me way back on page 4.
Because I agree with the contents of that post and was hoping it was indicative of where you were going with things, but clearly not. You, much like others in this thread, don't like the disgusting arguments you're making when they're distilled down to their obvious conclusions.

Regarding your WWII comments, nope, they still validate my original point. Bad guys roll heavy weapons into town and start killing civilians indiscriminately.
 

Randy

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Alright, I'm gonna be honest. I'm not the smartest person here. I'm terrible with numbers and their meaning. Long story short, is it feasible for them to just do it, or no?
I don't think $3000/yr is enough to load your entire family on a plane and start a new life somewhere no.
 

Randy

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You mean the Iraq war with a civilian casualty rate of 77%? While fighting in simpler conditions e.g. less densely populated areas?
Selectively glossed over the 1:2 civilian to combatant number in the sentence right before that? Also the fact that the war in Iraq is near universally condemned as a boondoggle and a black mark on the reputation of the US (which includes other atrocities as well)?
 

Stuck_in_a_dream

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I'm new to this thread, but would like to share my views on this latest terrorist attack (that started on 10/7). In no particular order:
1. Born & raised in Egypt, my upbringing & culture was to embrace peace. Camp David accord made a huge impression on my childhood growing up, with Sadat (one of my childhood role models, who I saw get assassinated by similar lunatics on public tv!), Begin, Carter making unprecedented steps towards peace in ME.

2. As a human being, scientist, who believe in good for all humanity, kindness to one another, I do believe that outside of maybe self-defense of imminent danger, violence is not a solution to any problem.

3. What Hamas committed on 10/7 is an unforgivable crime, these criminals/animals need to disappear from this planet as, imho, they permanently voided their social contract w humanity.

4. There is an underlying political conflict (that has been going on since 1948), terrorism completely undermines/eradicates any chance of a solution. Egypt has chosen a peaceful solution back in 1979, never looked back, maybe others should borrow a pg from that book. Fyi, Palestinians were offered a seat at the table in these negotiations a few times, and they passed!

5. Israel has all the right to defend itself against Hamas. My hope is to maybe to see a stronger, safer Israel that would also allow law-abiding Palestinians to coexist & enjoy basic human & civil rights, although I'll admit that it might be a pipe dream under current circumstances.

6. Maybe an ultimate solution is for some/majority of Palestinians to move to Jordan, I don't know, but the current status quo is untenable imho.
 

ADADAD

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Bad guys roll heavy weapons into town and start killing civilians indiscriminately.
Like Hamas did, exactly. Glad you're catching up.
You, much like others in this thread, don't like the disgusting arguments you're making when they're distilled down to their obvious conclusions.
You making illogical leaps and conclusions is not on me.
Selectively glossed over the 1:2 civilian to combatant number in the sentence right before that?
Yes, since he claimed I can't compare it to the Iraq war, so I did. The Afghanistan war is significantly "better". Summed together, still more civilians than combatants. Still as I mentioned neither of these (and definitely the world wars) is directly comparable to this (Israel-Hamas) war. I linked that wiki page to demonstrate that civilian casualties usually outnumber soldier casualties, often significantly, not to compare any two different wars 1:1. But again SSOers try to map this conflict to a conflict of their choosing in order to support their argument, rather than learn and generalize from previous conflicts to the new one.
 

Randy

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Summed together, still more civilians than combatants.
Mm, selective reading again. Afghanistan was almost 1:3 civilian to combatant.

You're the one that started this stuff about how civilians are the bulk of casualties during war, which in the modern day turns out to be either untrue or specifically in the context of bad guys invading people and unleashing wanton destruction.

That's on you for bringing it up, now you start saying well none of these are 1:1
 

ADADAD

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Mm, selective reading again. Afghanistan was almost 1:3 civilian to combatant.

You're the one that started this stuff about how civilians are the bulk of casualties during war, which in the modern day turns out to be either untrue or specifically in the context of bad guys invading people and unleashing wanton destruction.

That's on you for bringing it up, now you start saying well none of these are 1:1
Yes, I did bring it up to demonstrate that civilians casualties are high in war, and are unavoidable even in the most favorable circumstances. I did not compare a single conflict to the current war, since they are different, a concept you and others have a difficulty grasping.
Your inability to absorb information and apply it to new examples is, again, not on me. You seem to be incapable of observing statistics over a set of evidence, and can only map 1:1 or generalize from a single example. If one example is all you can handle, well, bummer.
If you were in a red state with this level of critical thinking you'd believe in Q-anon and that Trump is the messiah. At least reading these posts helps me understand how that can occur.
 

Randy

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But that's not what GDP means.
The attached number was GDP divided by population. Per capita income numbers are hard to come by but every one I read was somewhere between $2700 and $3700.

Edit: "The GDP per capita in the West Bank and Gaza also shows a general upward trend, to $3.5k"


"The average daily wage in the West Bank was NIS 123 ($38), compared with NIS 65.6 ($20) in Gaza"

If you assume working maybe 5 days a week, that's 260 days a year. $20 a day times that, so $5200 a year? Then whatever their terrorist leaders take out in taxes or however they collect their monies. These aren't numbers that are wildly different whatever they are.


Edit 2: "The average daily wage in the West Bank is $32, and $13 in Gaza"

So $3,360/yr?
 
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jaxadam

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Randy

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So are you treating GDP as a $3000/yr income that they can use to load your entire family on a plane and start a new life somewhere?
Go back and read the edit. The point is that economic activity and income in Gaza are both very low.

If you have a more accurate number that illustrates it's easy to get up and leave, you're free to share it.
 

Randy

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This article claims a 47% unemployment rate, and 80% below poverty. That's also on top of that figure of near 50% of the population being children.

 

StevenC

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I don't have an exact number for genocide, but if your civilian death ratio is worse than Obama's drone strikes then they're at very least war crimes. And if the ratios are closer to inverted Obama ratios, then yeah you're definitely into the "those civilians don't matter" area that abuts genocide. So for me, IDF needs to at least get below 1 civilian per terrorist before I believe they've had any change of heart.

I think it's fascinating that the response from Israeli politicians to being called a genocidal state is to tell other countries to take in 10 thousand Palestinians each. Or "the solution to genocide is genocide".

Finally, Gaza hasn't had a runway in over 20 years because Israel bombed and bulldozed it.
 

Randy

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The link you posted was literally GDP per capita.
That was my bad because I kept typing in income and Google kept giving me articles about GDP. Type in per capita income gaza or Palestine and see what articles you get.

I dunno maybe documentation on income is hard to come by in Gaza I'm not sure but fine, my fail.

Anyway Edit 2 is US State Dept numbers which explicitly say wages.

Were you just looking to point out that I can't read or were you making a point about the discussion?
 


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