Was it right? Am I xenophobic? Do I think genocide is OK? The answer is no. My intention intention isn't to whine, rather to point out that the way some of you guys jump at the opportunity to accuse people of bigotry is not only mistaken, but also ineffective in conveying any kind of information or logic that might actually change anyone's mind. Though I do get the feeling that for many, they don't actually care about changing minds, they're really just excited to blast someone on the internet. Which, you know I get it, I've been there. But still. Kudos (unironically) to the people who take the time to make Star Wars analogies to try to actually get their point across instead of just accusing people of having heinous beliefs that they probably don't have.
Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack
- Thread starter crimson
- Start date
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StevenC
Needs a hobby
It's really hard to have the patience when, at least in my lifetime, things have only gotten worse. The current Israeli prime minister did stochastic terrorism to assassinate the last prime minister who actually worked towards peace.
I don't think you're talking about me, but it's very hard to take any positions not specifically condemning Israel seriously at this point. People positioning Hamas, who are indeed bad people, as the main concern as opposed to the apartheid system which led to their creation and actively funds them.
You're the guy that said that refugees shouldn't be allowed to flee because the terrorists might get away, right? Yeah, you deserve to be called names if you're going to say things like that. I wasn't trying to change your mind, I was trying to let you and anyone else that reads this thread know that that's inhumane.
If you wanted to come back to share a new idea you have on the matter, great. To act like "see, I'm not that bad you should be ashamed for calling me xenophobic", I think that probably diminishes any larger point you were looking to make. I also don't think that your argument that treating a group better so they stop terrorizing you is necessarily antithetical to xenophobia.
My line is simple. Leave innocent people alone. If you can't come up with a way of minimizing (to near zero) or eliminating killing, maiming, imprisoning or oppressing innocent people to do what you think you need to do, then don't do it.
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To be clear, I absolutely did not say that. See, you're doing the exact shit I'm talking about.
I questioned, what's the point of bombing buildings that don't have Hamas in them? It doesn't achieve anything except wasting resources and destroying civilian infrastructure when they could be using those resources to target Hamas. I was NOT saying they shouldn't let people flee. I was saying that blowing up buildings they already told people to evacuate didn't seem like an effective method of stopping Hamas—and it still isn't. That your automatic inference when I suggest that Israel shouldn't waste their time bombing evacuated buildings is that I think they should bomb un-evacuated buildings full of civilians is fucking stupid, and way off the mark. And I told you as much when you accused of that shit the first time. I really can't comprehend why people are shoving opinions I don't even have and didn't even say into my mouth.
My literal first post in this thread was asking "how can we de-radicalize future generations", which I suggested that Israel fund anti-Islamist groups in Palestine. I then go on to say that I DON'T agree with Israel's carpet bombing of Gaza. What I am I met with? People calling me xenophobe, telling me I support genocide. I now come back and say that maybe going on the offensive altogether isn't the right way. What's that? I'm still a xenophobe?
edit: I re-read your reply and now see that you didn't necessarily call me a xenophobe again this most recent time, so scratch that last part I guess.
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Drew
Forum MVP
I mean, I for one am glad to see you're starting to see the nuance in the situation, and IMO that's a pretty big win.
But "all these people who really jumped at me, and it turns out I was wrong and they were right, but the way they jumped at me, that wasn't really nice" is an, um, tenuous point to be making here. I seem to recall you being pretty heated 50 pages ago, yourself.
EDIT - to be fair, I went back and I think I was actually thinking of philkilla and not you.
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Ooph, don't do that to the poor guy.EDIT - to be fair, I went back and I think I was actually thinking of philkilla and not you.
Drew
Forum MVP
Good point - vilk, please take this in the spirit it was made, of owning my own fuck-up, and not an intentional backhanded insult. I've had a lot going on lately.Ooph, don't do that to the poor guy.
Drew
Forum MVP
In semi-related news, I have just been reminded of the existence of Orphaned Land, and if there's ever a time for them, it's now.
StevenC
Needs a hobby
Wow, just straight up honesty on their position.
Also, fascinating that she says Oslo failed because of Palestinians, not because Bibi inspired the assassination of the Israeli PM at the time.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Congratulations on murdering 1300 of our citizens. We hereby grant you the statehood you so rightly deserve?
How can you be surprised this is the official position going forward?
Who is the "you" you're talking about? Like specifically.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Essentially all Palestinians. This isn't the context to split hairs on who is Hamas, and who supports them, and who doesn't -- Hamas are elected representatives fighting for Palestinian statehood. You can't grant anyone statehood without rewarding the actions of Oct 7th.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
I'm happy for you to do so. Name any time in history where a nation launched an attack or act of terror, for a specific political purpose, against a more powerful nation, and the nation turned around and granted that political aim. If you're not going to achieve your goals through diplomacy, you have to make it otherwise more trouble than its worth. Hamas can't do that through military means. Maybe the rest of the world can, but we're not anywhere near that yet.
Again, you act like this is a "take". This is reality. I don't recall a nation ever having some "epiphany" that a change of circumstances is warranted through some surprise act of violence.
StevenC
Needs a hobby
"Nation"
Palestinians can't achieve their goals diplomatically because Israel doesn't want to engage with the idea.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Semantics. A historical example with two nations would be fine, or a nation and a want-to-be-nation. It doesn't matter. Just name any.
And I think "can't" is overly pessimistic. If we're going to make colonial comparisons, then it's not like there was always an eagerness to engage with the idea of separating. There are still many nations that found a path to independence through peaceful means. And it's not like there weren't fairly promising moments in the history of between these two peoples.
MFB
Banned
Uh, wouldn't that technically just be America, what with the Revolutionary War we fought to secede from the British Empire?
soliloquy
Well-Known Member
StevenC
Needs a hobby
Well, I mean. Ireland, USA, Kenya, etc etc. All branded as terrorists until peace was achieved.
So, tell me the nations that found a path to independence through peaceful means while being actively and forcibly colonised.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
No. The revolutionaries definitely made it much more trouble than it was worth. While in overall stats they are the underdogs, they had the strategic advantage of being located far away, making it a logistical issue. That and the colonies were not exactly Britains primary concern throughout a lot of that period. But that's the whole point -- and I made this point already going back way earlier in the thread -- if Hamas was 10x larger or whatever is needed to rival Israel's military, then maybe violence could be a similar path to independence. But it seems like Israel's probably in the position to limit the extent to which Hamas can launch similar Oct 7th style attacks, which is going to limit that.
