Jazz Metal

[ArrowHead]

Oh, Dan, I wasn't referring to your last post. On page two there were a lot of comments that people's examples were "fusion" and not real Jazz Metal. I honestly don't understand what the difference would be.

Of course, when it comes to labeling music, I tend to look at things a little differently. People still give me flack for calling old Slayer "punk" music.

 

[Dan Halen]

Oh, Dan, I wasn't referring to your last post. On page two there were a lot of comments that people's examples were "fusion" and not real Jazz Metal. I honestly don't understand what the difference would be.

Of course, when it comes to labeling music, I tend to look at things a little differently. People still give me flack for calling old Slayer "punk" music.

Yah thats fine haha

But just to clarify I think Fusion is either just faster jazz with more keyboards OR Progressive Jazz. i think those are some good ways to look at it.

 

[nicomortem]

not sure how metal it is, but here is some heavy jazzy music I came up with, and hey, I even use a 7 string on this one! haha

 

[MstrH]

Oh yeah! Tony MacAlpine & Planet X! Awesome.

Also Greg Howe if no one has mentioned him yet...

 

[Black Mamba]

Dååth

 

[Meximelt]

candiria gets rather close at times

 

[shuntz]

If he wants Straight-up Jazz Metal then there isnt a lot of it and a lot of other people have posted some of the bands that Encompass it. I'd also say that BTBAM carries a lot of Jazz influences and references in their music but they are far from Jazz, they are Prog.

So the basis of this post is even though its fusion, its still jazz. but if OP would like something more specific and we are not meeting his/her needs then that also needs to be stated.

Like I said in the first post, listen to any Exivious song or "Skylines" by Painted In Exile or "Harrison Fjord" by Haunted Shores and you'll get a good idea what I'm looking for. I would describe it as jazzy sounding progressive metal.

 

[2ManyShoes]

I should qualify all the music I post by saying I really have no idea of Jazz other than the fusion stuff my friend has given me!

Yakuza maybe? Probably just more avant garde than anything but they have a song at the end of their first album which may fit the bill. Ephel Duath would probably fit into the same cetegory.




How about the Jonas Hellborg album Art Metal? I am no expert but Hellborg is primarily a fusion player so I hope it can be considered Jazz.


Also a lot of mathcore bands have jazz style interludes. The number 12 looks like you, the first A Textbook Tragedy album, The Hysteria, Lye By Mistake etc.

I was going to mention Art Metal and Ephel Duath, but you beat me to it. Frank Gambale and Allan Holdsworth's "Truth in Shredding comes to mind, too, as well as Planet X.

 

[Dan Halen]

Like I said in the first post, listen to any Exivious song or "Skylines" by Painted In Exile or "Harrison Fjord" by Haunted Shores and you'll get a good idea what I'm looking for. I would describe it as jazzy sounding progressive metal.

Yah! that's exactly what I got from those bands. Especially "Exivious". But if you liked "Painted In Exile" then you'll deffinitly like "Between The Buried And Me".

Also, some other people you may want to look up are Greg Howe, Alex Argento, and Marco Sfogli. Although Alex plays Keyboard he has a slew of great lead Guitarists (Including Marco Sfogli) that Accompany him in his Jazz-Fusiony greatness with solos and just leads in general.

Alex Argento - Synchronal Steps - YouTube
Marco Sfogli - Genius - YouTube
This song^ is also an Alex Argento song, they just both decided to use it on each others solo albums with a different intro.

 

[Ryan-ZenGtr-]

Spastik Ink


Ron Jarzombek - Guitar
Bobby Jarzombek - Drums

Definitely more metal than fusion.



@Arrowhead

I know what you mean about fusion, and I agree with your comments about Slayer and their development of the punk sound with some Black Sabbath influenced doom. Same goes for Megadeth, check out the version of Tornado of Souls on Marty Friedman's solo album...



I genuinely hate punk. Can't help it... Sorry! So many abysmal young "punk" bands ruining good nights out. I do have a few original British punk friends (now in their late 40's) and they're all awesome people with the wildest war stories you've ever heard!

I've heard all the kiddie punk stuff (FatWreckChords etc.) and all the big names. There was a big pop-punk movement in England for about 10 years, with lot's of my friends playing ska-punk and other, more ear friendly sub-genres. As much as metal forces the listener into it's domain, pop-punk forcing the listener to be happy is equally annoying for me.

First band I went to see at the LA2, on Tottenham court road. A friend wanted to see them, so I got my first dose of spitting, crowd surfing and moshing.



Most of the fusion stuff I've heard...
As much as early punk tried to sidestep the pop genre with theatrics, aggression and anti-intellectualism, fusion departed from the popular music rulebook by dispensing with the tools required for classic songwriting, such as lyrics, repetition, order and melody.

I've got all the Frank Gambale stuff, Alan Holdsworth etc. I could never really enjoy it much as for me, emotional response is the determining factor for the value of music. Failing that, is it good music to have a beer/dance/chat/fun with it in the background.

Of course, as a guitarist and musician, flashy licks always take precedence.

@celticelk

The threads called "Jazz Metal", Shaun's first solo album is called "Jazz Metal". It makes sense.

Also, judging his abilities from one song (from the Vai & Satch era) is a little premature, don't you think?
The album was released in Jan 1996.

The reason you add superlatives to any endorsement is to ensure potential listeners put in the effort to listen to the endorsee.

I stand by my assessment that he is one of the greats, as do many major artists who sought him out for touring and recording sessions.
If you took the time to listen to more of his music and assess his career (which includes decades of teaching and very advanced articles in British guitar magazines) then I'm sure you would stand to benefit.

Shaun taught myself and many others at the Guitar Institute in London. His ability on the instrument, incredible wealth of knowledge and his good nature is something to be respected.

From his websites biography...

2007
Became Academic Director of The Academy of Music and Sound (centres in Exeter, Birmingham, Southampton, Swindon, Edinburgh and Glasgow)

2006
Became Head of Guitar at Guitar-X

Put more effort into following recommendations next time, as the rewards can be great!

 

[shuntz]

Yah! that's exactly what I got from those bands. Especially "Exivious". But if you liked "Painted In Exile" then you'll deffinitly like "Between The Buried And Me".

Also, some other people you may want to look up are Greg Howe, Alex Argento, and Marco Sfogli. Although Alex plays Keyboard he has a slew of great lead Guitarists (Including Marco Sfogli) that Accompany him in his Jazz-Fusiony greatness with solos and just leads in general.

Alex Argento - Synchronal Steps - YouTube
Marco Sfogli - Genius - YouTube
This song^ is also an Alex Argento song, they just both decided to use it on each others solo albums with a different intro.

Yeah I've heard of Between The Buried And Me, I have their newest album. Already know about Greg Howe, he's more jazz-rock fusion. Heard about Marco Sfogli because he played for James LaBrie but didn't listen to him enough to know that he does fusion-like stuff. I'll give Alex Argento a listen.

 

[Trespass]

Everyone in this thread is wrong except for celticelk, jacksonplayer and whoever else mentioned more or less that these bands are metal with jazz influences.

THAT BEING SAID

Greg Howe is the closest to real jazz/fusion, not the rock guys using modes and possibly sidestepping (oh, HOW EXOTIC) over a backing track. I say that, because it feels like there is collective improvisation and communication going on with what recent stuff I've seen of his. That being said, I haven't seen a whole lot of it.

TRAM. I can't believe no one mentioned this.
They definitely are going in that direction. They remind me of big band writing like Carla Bley, in that they have multiple "heads" within a song that are solo'd over. I don't know what they look like live beyond the videos from last summer, but it definitely seems like there is room for collective improvisation and communication between soloist and band.

Source: I play jazz for a living.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

Gordian Knot?

I've got all the Frank Gambale stuff, Alan Holdsworth etc. I could never really enjoy it much as for me, emotional response is the determining factor for the value of music. Failing that, is it good music to have a beer/dance/chat/fun with it in the background.

While I love much music for emotional reasons, there is a large quantity of music I enjoy purely because it sounds interesting (most music I enjoy fulfills one or both of these to some extent). A good deal of atonal, serial, 'modernist', experimental, and avant garde fits in this category.

For instance this piece isn't emotional at all but I find it amazing for it's unique sonorities.
Schoenberg: "Serenade" Op. 24 (1/7) - YouTube

Nothing wrong with your viewpoint at all (pretty common actually), but I've been fascinated by sounds since I was a child.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I absolutely adore jazz - I have some experience as a freelance jazz player, my satellite radio receiver is tuned to the standards station 90% of the time, have a decent sized home collection, etc - but at some point you have to accept that the defining elements of jazz to the hardcore jazz player, or even a well-informed listener, are not necessarily identical to the defining elements to the average musically-informed listener with a predominantly contemporary background. It's true that the harmonic aspects most perceive as "jazzy" are also found in other forms of music, including forms predating jazz, but jazz contemporized these elements and so that's what most people will relate them to. The half-dozen people saying THAT'S NOT JAZZ every few posts can do so ad infinitum, and I agree that the songs posted here lack much of the jazz style, but at the end of the day it's not going to stop anyone from posting "jazzy" metal in this thread and probably won't even get them to stop calling it such.

 

[Amanita]

well, i love the emergent aspect of this thread. OP basically asked for some "metal with jazzy stuff mixed in" and out of it came some interesting discussion and lots of interesting and diverse music posted (most of it being NOT what OP wanted). wicked

 

[travis bickle]

another vote for planet x as well. some of the best fusion shit ive ever heard.

 

[jacksonplayer]

Awesome contribution, care to share some of your favourite albums in the direction of the things you're talking about?

Thanks!

Your request would take an entire thread of its own, and more time than I have to do right.

The first four Weather Report albums are defined by a sense that everyone was playing off of each other, but with only rare instances of anyone actually being a "soloist" in the traditional sense. This was keyboardist Joe Zawinul's basic concept, and one he convinced Miles Davis to adopt on albums like "In a Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" (both of which are essential) before Joe founded Weather Report. These WR albums are:

"Weather Report" - 1971
"I Sing The Body Electric" - 1972
"Sweetnighter" - 1973
"Mysterious Traveler" - 1974

The first two are more acoustic, with Fender Rhodes being the only electric instrument, along with some electronic effects that Miroslav Vitous used on his upright bass parts. The last two of those albums are funkier and more electric, but with the same general concept.

After Mysterious Traveler, Weather Report began to go in a more commercial direction, culminating in the albums with Jaco Pastorius (like "Heavy Weather"), which are cool in their own right, but much more fixed and "poppy".

This sort of "non-solo improvisation" is mostly featured in crazy avant-garde jazz nowadays. Outside of that, it's worth looking up the band Natural Element, which features Tribal Tech keyboardist Scott Kinsey. He's a major Joe Zawinul fan, and Natural Element has a Weather Report vibe going on, though with some vocals added in. I saw their debut gig at the New Universe Music Festival a couple years ago, which frankly was more exciting than their debut album. I still recommend checking out the album, if you're interested in this general area I'm talking about.

But just to clarify I think Fusion is either just faster jazz with more keyboards OR Progressive Jazz. i think those are some good ways to look at it.

The problem with defining fusion is that it has changed so much over the years.

Initially in the early '70s, it was known as "jazz/rock"--at first it was established jazz musicians like Miles and Herbie Hancock who were influenced by Jimi Hendrix and Sly Stone to expand their sound into electric instruments and incorporate rock and soul rhythms.

The first two great fusion guitarists were John McLaughlin and Larry Coryell, and they brought a very raw sensibility, combining Hendrix and Coltrane--with McLaughlin developing serious chops once he formed Mahavishnu Orchestra. At this point, you can start to see the "rock" part of "jazz/rock" starting to become equally important. I find that a lot of the fusion guitarists influenced by Holdsworth have gotten entirely too polished for my tastes, even though I'm a major fan of Holdsworth and Alex Machacek. Go back and listen to the early Mahavishnu albums or some of Coryell's work with Eleventh House--they are very raw and exciting in a way that modern fusion guitarists rarely are. Vernon Reid is probably more of a descendant of this stuff than Holdsworth is. Even Holdsworth used to play a lot more exciting stuff up through about Metal Fatigue, but his perfectionism has killed a lot of the excitement for me.

At the same time, the '60s soul jazz of Cannonball Adderley and Jack McDuff started to morph in jazz-funk in the '70s. This is the other key ingredient in what we call "fusion" nowadays.

AFAIK, the term "fusion" started to be used only the late '70s, and specifically applied to a more watered-down pop-jazz variant dominated by keyboards, which was essentially the early version of what became smooth jazz in the '80s.

Now, however, "fusion" is used to describe electric jazz generally. This is why something like Planet X can be described as fusion, even though it bears little or no resemblance to what Miles Davis was doing in the '70s.

Although I still use the term fusion myself, I've tried to avoid it, just because it is so utterly non-descriptive.

 

[shuntz]

This guy does a pretty good job of blending some almost djent-like stuff and some fusion.

 

[ArrowHead]

I absolutely adore jazz - I have some experience as a freelance jazz player, my satellite radio receiver is tuned to the standards station 90% of the time, have a decent sized home collection, etc - but at some point you have to accept that the defining elements of jazz to the hardcore jazz player, or even a well-informed listener, are not necessarily identical to the defining elements to the average musically-informed listener with a predominantly contemporary background. It's true that the harmonic aspects most perceive as "jazzy" are also found in other forms of music, including forms predating jazz, but jazz contemporized these elements and so that's what most people will relate them to. The half-dozen people saying THAT'S NOT JAZZ every few posts can do so ad infinitum, and I agree that the songs posted here lack much of the jazz style, but at the end of the day it's not going to stop anyone from posting "jazzy" metal in this thread and probably won't even get them to stop calling it such.

Absolutely.

I was a Jazz Performance major in college. Three whole freshman years of it. I still call Cynic, Exivious, and Athiest "Jazz Metal", even after the man FROM Cynic and Exivious himself just said it isn't.

Jazz is a broad, broad term. Rock is very folk and blues based. Metal is often either rock/blues based, or classically based. So it's really not off to see people label anything that doesn't fit those two as "jazz".

How do y'all think the hardcore LA gangstas feel when they hear people call Korn "rap-metal"?

As for fusion, I originally associated it with stuff like Dimeola and Holdsworth, who AT THE TIME were merging jazz and rock. But then guys like Dimeola, Methany, and others started recruiting chanting pygmies and cheesy synth players and it seems a lot of people now associate THAT sound with fusion. I don't. I consider it to connote a jazz/rock fusion.

 

[nickgray]