Kiesel --- Never Again!
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My LTD RL-600 was one of the best guitars I've ever owned, better than my USA Jackson even, but I'm not going to delude myself and say that Korean imports are better than USA Jacksons. If you say that some Carvin/Kiesel guitars are nice and others are bad, you must concede the same about other manufacturers at all different price points. Quite frankly a simple Kiesel build will rival Korean prices these days.
And how many times did you have to multiply the base price of a Kiesel to get to the base price of your Tommy? Money talks... more at 11! I don't know anyone cross shopping Kiesel and Suhr/Tom Anderson/etc, a quick search does have some threads about it, but everyone responding shares the same opinion, that if your Kiesel build rises above real custom shop prices maybe you should re-evaluate your spec sheet (I say this as a Kiesel owner).
This thread is the biggest dumpster fire on the entire site, I don't know why I'm bumping it.
RockMixer
I mix Rock Music
Dude....you have no clue! Tom Anderson, Suhr, Ernie Ball are all a much higher level of guitar build than Kiesel! Since the change to Kiesel, that company has gone downhill! Also more important, I was a customer for over 10 years who spent a lot of money with them. You would think that would matter. Nope! They dont give a flying F about their clients! They DO NOT do the right thing! Carvin was a much better run company that made a more consistent guitar! And by the way... there was no reason to insult me or my post. This is a discussion board, so lets have a discussion!
Like I said...this is all based on my experience and my opinion. If you dont like it, thats fine!
But no reason to dis anyone!
Like I said...this is all based on my experience and my opinion. If you dont like it, thats fine!
But no reason to dis anyone!
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That is exactly what I'm saying though, at least about Suhr and Anderson, but it's apples to oranges, as those brands are at least 2x the price of a modest Kiesel spec.
Emperor Guillotine
The Almighty Ruler
These statements are all true and all seem to be the general consensus across the internet by players who aren't hype-devouring Kiesel fanboys.
The point about one of Kiesel’s strengths being their ability to compete with Korean imports is one I don’t often see addressed:
It is precisely because Jeff understands that his inherited brand can’t sustain competition with Asian manufacturing forever that he is so focused on pushing his Costco/Sam’s Club-style “Buy Into Being a Member of Our Premium, Exclusive, AMERICAN Family, Bro!” marketing angle.
Jeff’s been beveling racecars with his allowance for decades; and he will never lower his SoCal DudeBrah standard of living by moving manufacturing a few miles in any one direction into Arizona or Mexico - So he has to keep raising prices two or three times a year in order to cope with the expense of being a SoCal manufacturer. The Carvin identity and safety net of “Best Factory-Direct American Brand For The Money” is being discarded on the strength of marketing, alone - And the only people willing to pretend Kiesel can compete with the Suhr/Anderson/Tyler pool Jeff’s wading into are those who only fetishize the former because they can’t afford the latter.
And that’s what’s such a head-scratcher: The long game of Kiesel’s lifestyle-marketing is dependent upon the core audience not noticing that the ship is abandoning them for a more expensive market.
The hurdle is in that this unfamiliar territory Kiesel’s current trajectory is headed into is going to test Jeff’s integrity. Mark my words: Jeff’s priorities are based entirely in his standard of living; and he will sell the company before he’s willing to do any uprooting or restructuring to stay competitive within the price-points the public perception of the brand is rooted in.
(I’m from Southern California, if it matters).
It is precisely because Jeff understands that his inherited brand can’t sustain competition with Asian manufacturing forever that he is so focused on pushing his Costco/Sam’s Club-style “Buy Into Being a Member of Our Premium, Exclusive, AMERICAN Family, Bro!” marketing angle.
Jeff’s been beveling racecars with his allowance for decades; and he will never lower his SoCal DudeBrah standard of living by moving manufacturing a few miles in any one direction into Arizona or Mexico - So he has to keep raising prices two or three times a year in order to cope with the expense of being a SoCal manufacturer. The Carvin identity and safety net of “Best Factory-Direct American Brand For The Money” is being discarded on the strength of marketing, alone - And the only people willing to pretend Kiesel can compete with the Suhr/Anderson/Tyler pool Jeff’s wading into are those who only fetishize the former because they can’t afford the latter.
And that’s what’s such a head-scratcher: The long game of Kiesel’s lifestyle-marketing is dependent upon the core audience not noticing that the ship is abandoning them for a more expensive market.
The hurdle is in that this unfamiliar territory Kiesel’s current trajectory is headed into is going to test Jeff’s integrity. Mark my words: Jeff’s priorities are based entirely in his standard of living; and he will sell the company before he’s willing to do any uprooting or restructuring to stay competitive within the price-points the public perception of the brand is rooted in.
(I’m from Southern California, if it matters).
spudmunkey
Well-Known Member
That line of thinking is baffling to me. I would rather do something else, and live where I want to live, where my life, friends and family are… than up root and move to somewhere I don't wanna be. :shrugs:
Counterpoint: we live in a time where South Korean and Indonesian built guitars are breaking the $1500 barrier on a regular basis and it doesn't seem like it's going to stop any time soon.
While the quality is approaching Kiesel, the price is too, and I'd argue at a higher rate.
I think as long as Kiesel can trot out the fact that they're significantly less expensive than real boutique shops (Suhr/Anderson/Tyler/etc.) they'll retain thier base customers.
Though, it's not like they're as directly competing with the boutique Strat builders anymore, Delos not withstanding, anymore. They're really going after small ERG builders and between the uncertainty of newer, smaller builders, Strandbergs inability to keep thier manufacturers running and ridiculous import pricing, and the bigger names being way more expensive, they have the market somewhat cornered. Now, if the ERG boom goes bust, they're going to be in a pickle, but it's not like they can't go back to thier Gibson/Fender/PRS competition roots.
I'm often critical of Kiesel, but I don't think they're managing the direction of the brand as bad as some say.
Could always split the difference and have two facilities. A smaller, more R&D focused shop in SoCal and the full production facility somewhere cheaper, while still being in the United States and a quick flight/decent drive away.
It’s an international business, spudmunkey. Maybe other individuals within the company hold a conflicting “big picture” view of growth that conflicts with a single whim to remain where there’s good nap weather. By all means, base your business decisions around where you prefer to live. But circumstances (and the continued employment of a factory’s worth of employees) historically have a way of undermining that.
I think you’re giving Jeff the benefit of the doubt that he’s as smart as you are. Your counterpoint(s) are valid, but assume Jeff won’t prove himself his own worst enemy.
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Casper777
Slow Player
Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars? 
I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?
I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?
Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars?
I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?
Supposedly it is a factor, but it doesn't really seem to be making much of a difference given the amount of guitars they seem to be selling.
They have a very unique product at the moment, so availability and demand seem to be taking precedence over his attitude, along with other known issues.
Fred the Shred
Shrederick
Jeff's "peculiar" personality aside, which is completely down to one's own sensitivities, I agree with Max here - the market was quite well chosen and, in spite of Jeff's recurring attempts at jabs at brands that operate in higher echelons of quality (and pricing when comparing base specs), truth is that Kiesel does cater to a different market, namely that of the ERG buff that isn't keen on getting an Ibanez or similar guitar yet is not willing or able to fork out what the high end brands charge for their product.
Personally, even though Jeff's chosen way to present himself and his product is really as cringy as it gets, truth is that even that can arguably be balanced to some degree by some very fine people who work in the company, so the customer experience has a good chance to be quite positive in the end. Usually the proverbial tends to hit the fan when there's a defect or deviation from requested spec that is argued to not be so or result in a suboptimal solution in the eyes of the customer, and many people will take the chance or not even know that's a thing, given how it's not like Kiesel has a 40% defect rate or something equally absurd.
Personally, even though Jeff's chosen way to present himself and his product is really as cringy as it gets, truth is that even that can arguably be balanced to some degree by some very fine people who work in the company, so the customer experience has a good chance to be quite positive in the end. Usually the proverbial tends to hit the fan when there's a defect or deviation from requested spec that is argued to not be so or result in a suboptimal solution in the eyes of the customer, and many people will take the chance or not even know that's a thing, given how it's not like Kiesel has a 40% defect rate or something equally absurd.
Dumple Stilzkin
Pointy star bastard.
I get that Jeff rubs some people the wrong way, he does me too at times. But nobody said you have to watch his videos. I get the feeling that some people are taking things way too personally. To the Suhr/Anderson crowd, why let his markering get to you? You can afford those high end instruments, I and many others cannot. So what Kiesel and Carvin offer is a really cool thing. A person would have to be delusional to think a Kiesel is on par with those other companies. No need for you to feel threatened. That being said, they are very nicely made and mine have always had great fretwork. There was some flaws on my Carvins. People pretending that Carvins were perfect are full of beans and rice. Though they had a better reputation for making things right. I would NEVER buy any Kiesel or Carvin direct from them without having the 10 day trial.
Jonathan20022
Engineer
In a perfect world with Jeff taking a permanent vow of silence on social media and the instruments came out consistently awesome no one would have a problem with them. It's okay to mess up from time to time as well, but the problem is owning it.
If you have a good time with Kiesel and you're focused on getting bang for your buck then it's going to be hard top convince you to buy from anywhere else. Personally my builds were great 5/6 times, but after playing all the gear I have and have seen at NAMM. I would have eventually retired those guitars and moved on to the things that appeal to me more. I really wish Ron Thorn was still building, if there was ever a more reliable, friendly, and meticulous builder I'd put my money on it being him. The cost gap may be wide, but getting treated as nicely as that and being asked questions about your playing and specifics so he can nail down every last spec to the T is nice. When you're working at that capacity, you dont have to state that you have a return policy. You make sure the customer won't have to even have that thought cross their mind, unless of course the carrier loses it or damages it in transit!
My buddy has a birth defect that affects the angle of his left arm and he pretty much exclusively plays in classical position with his guitar facing a little away from him. Ron literally shaped and created a neck profile from a description of this to fit his hand so it helps relax his left hand more than other necks that are evenly shaped. It's still the guitar he's most comfortable with using, you won't get that from Kiesel ever.
Kiesel is a semi custom shop that also works like a production line factory. So inherently more defects will also occur by nature of several hands working on dozens of guitars at all times, vs a guy with a small team putting dozens of hours into a single instrument. Some people dont see the value in that or dont feel like they want to spend that kind of money and that's fine. But pretty hard to go from that to being yelled at by Mike Jones for some simple information.
And I'll always mention it, but Chris Hong is a literal saint and the nicest customer facing guy in that business. If you have to order a Kiesel, go through no one else but him.
If you have a good time with Kiesel and you're focused on getting bang for your buck then it's going to be hard top convince you to buy from anywhere else. Personally my builds were great 5/6 times, but after playing all the gear I have and have seen at NAMM. I would have eventually retired those guitars and moved on to the things that appeal to me more. I really wish Ron Thorn was still building, if there was ever a more reliable, friendly, and meticulous builder I'd put my money on it being him. The cost gap may be wide, but getting treated as nicely as that and being asked questions about your playing and specifics so he can nail down every last spec to the T is nice. When you're working at that capacity, you dont have to state that you have a return policy. You make sure the customer won't have to even have that thought cross their mind, unless of course the carrier loses it or damages it in transit!
My buddy has a birth defect that affects the angle of his left arm and he pretty much exclusively plays in classical position with his guitar facing a little away from him. Ron literally shaped and created a neck profile from a description of this to fit his hand so it helps relax his left hand more than other necks that are evenly shaped. It's still the guitar he's most comfortable with using, you won't get that from Kiesel ever.
Kiesel is a semi custom shop that also works like a production line factory. So inherently more defects will also occur by nature of several hands working on dozens of guitars at all times, vs a guy with a small team putting dozens of hours into a single instrument. Some people dont see the value in that or dont feel like they want to spend that kind of money and that's fine. But pretty hard to go from that to being yelled at by Mike Jones for some simple information.
And I'll always mention it, but Chris Hong is a literal saint and the nicest customer facing guy in that business. If you have to order a Kiesel, go through no one else but him.
Fred the Shred
Shrederick
The thing it ends up boiling down to, in my own case, aside from some antics like the "stolen" guitars from some time ago ringing many an alarm bell regarding ethics, is really a risk / reward thing.
In a hypothetical scenario, let's say all my lovely guitars are gone - poof! - in whatever cataclysmic event. I also have no endorsements whatsoever in said scenario nor any access to anything like that, so I'm just your average customer, and being a musician I'm not exactly super wealthy to begin with. I do a bit of research to see what my limited budget allows me to get to keep things working, so let's say a couple guitars in whatever configuration I need, for example, a 7 and an 8-string.
After checking Kiesel and their cool designs, I go out looking for reviews and such if I have had no previous contact with those guitars to be on the safe side and get a bearing regarding how things will work out, and it's especially important since I'm not even in the US, but rather in Portugal, so shipping things back and forth and customs processing is an added factor. As your friendly fellow SSO member and, as such, someone who regularly uses the internet, I type "kiesel guitars review" on google. The first result I got aside from the usual YouTube videos was this:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1797174
Equally highlighted under this one were these topics:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1745740
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1698643
Without going too far in the results pane, there's also many more of this nature, like:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-98 (this one looks AWFULLY familiar
)
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=387966
I'll be honest - were they complaints about a finish issue of some description, banged up guitar, or even some crass mistake gone past QC, these would already be intimidating, but the true killer is how the customer support appears to be made to operate in the company, which in turn means the whole ordeal now escalates from "tough luck, a QC issue, but I'm sure they'll sort this out" to "will I be stuck with the option of keeping a guitar that doesn't live up to the hype or forking out a ton of money to fix it due to the official company stance leaving me shafted?" and, in such a case, it's basically a hard pass from me.
Don't get me wrong - I loved Carvins, and Kiesel didn't magically downgrade things in the production line to make guitars objectively worse. Customer support, however, is crucial in the relationship between customer and company since no company is immune to making mistakes (and I don't think a faulty instrument is a make or break scenario), so if due to the current policies or whatever factors may be involved in that I perceive a high risk of being shafted, I will not risk my hard earned cash.
Excuse the long rant, but ultimately I think that it's easy to perceive criticism as a way to bash Jeff, the company or its employees, while I want them to be excellent in all fronts. As in absurdly good - they have great people working there, they obviously can build a great instrument, and what I see as necessary is to really clean up the act in the post sale support and warranty policies. Jeff is a smart guy and identified a very much untapped niche in that price range, not to mention he managed to expand on it as well, so it's quite clear the ability to identify and correct things that harm the company's image is there, and that's what a great deal of criticism is about.
In a hypothetical scenario, let's say all my lovely guitars are gone - poof! - in whatever cataclysmic event. I also have no endorsements whatsoever in said scenario nor any access to anything like that, so I'm just your average customer, and being a musician I'm not exactly super wealthy to begin with. I do a bit of research to see what my limited budget allows me to get to keep things working, so let's say a couple guitars in whatever configuration I need, for example, a 7 and an 8-string.
After checking Kiesel and their cool designs, I go out looking for reviews and such if I have had no previous contact with those guitars to be on the safe side and get a bearing regarding how things will work out, and it's especially important since I'm not even in the US, but rather in Portugal, so shipping things back and forth and customs processing is an added factor. As your friendly fellow SSO member and, as such, someone who regularly uses the internet, I type "kiesel guitars review" on google. The first result I got aside from the usual YouTube videos was this:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1797174
Equally highlighted under this one were these topics:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1745740
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1698643
Without going too far in the results pane, there's also many more of this nature, like:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-98 (this one looks AWFULLY familiar
)http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=387966
I'll be honest - were they complaints about a finish issue of some description, banged up guitar, or even some crass mistake gone past QC, these would already be intimidating, but the true killer is how the customer support appears to be made to operate in the company, which in turn means the whole ordeal now escalates from "tough luck, a QC issue, but I'm sure they'll sort this out" to "will I be stuck with the option of keeping a guitar that doesn't live up to the hype or forking out a ton of money to fix it due to the official company stance leaving me shafted?" and, in such a case, it's basically a hard pass from me.
Don't get me wrong - I loved Carvins, and Kiesel didn't magically downgrade things in the production line to make guitars objectively worse. Customer support, however, is crucial in the relationship between customer and company since no company is immune to making mistakes (and I don't think a faulty instrument is a make or break scenario), so if due to the current policies or whatever factors may be involved in that I perceive a high risk of being shafted, I will not risk my hard earned cash.
Excuse the long rant, but ultimately I think that it's easy to perceive criticism as a way to bash Jeff, the company or its employees, while I want them to be excellent in all fronts. As in absurdly good - they have great people working there, they obviously can build a great instrument, and what I see as necessary is to really clean up the act in the post sale support and warranty policies. Jeff is a smart guy and identified a very much untapped niche in that price range, not to mention he managed to expand on it as well, so it's quite clear the ability to identify and correct things that harm the company's image is there, and that's what a great deal of criticism is about.
Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars?
Yeah well, the Chick Fila CEO hates gays, but I still eat there when I'm hungry and it's convenient. If strandberg had hardware as good as hipshot headless (my personal opinion) and they didn't charge you near-suhr-modern-satin prices for an Indonesian import, then maybe I could get my headless elsewhere.
Andromalia
Pardon my french
We still bought Gibsons with Henry at the helm.Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars?
I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?
The thing is, I'm maybe lucky, but all the Gibson QC internet rants were just internet rants for me: all the Gibson I bought new have been spotless. (In prices ranging from 800 to 1600€).
As Fred said above, the horror stories about Customer Service are a much, much bigger issue than the CEO being an asshole. A lot of asshole CEOs issue good products.
bracky
Contributor
Kiesel is a transparent company so you see the bad with the good. The devil you know. Both my Vader’s are great btw.
RockMixer
I mix Rock Music
So its like this. After owning a Keisel, I can personally tell you, they are not so great.
The best part about them is they look cool. But the builds are not all that. Mine had a terrible fret job. The edges were sharp when I got it and buzzing all over. The neck also needed adjusting.
As far as Jeff goes. I dont hate the guy, but I just wish he would understand about business and the right way to treat a good customer. To me he has a Napoleon complex and everyone who works for him is afraid to stand up as they do not want to lose their job. As far as imports.....has anyone played a Chapman or a Solar guitar? They feel and sound better than any Kiesel I have played. They are very reasonable in price, and more important....both company owners are pretty cool people! Just sayin!
The best part about them is they look cool. But the builds are not all that. Mine had a terrible fret job. The edges were sharp when I got it and buzzing all over. The neck also needed adjusting.
As far as Jeff goes. I dont hate the guy, but I just wish he would understand about business and the right way to treat a good customer. To me he has a Napoleon complex and everyone who works for him is afraid to stand up as they do not want to lose their job. As far as imports.....has anyone played a Chapman or a Solar guitar? They feel and sound better than any Kiesel I have played. They are very reasonable in price, and more important....both company owners are pretty cool people! Just sayin!
RockMixer
I mix Rock Music
By the way, I personally would NEVER play a headless guitar! They look really F'n weird!
IMPO
IMPO
