Kiesel --- Never Again!

[MaxOfMetal]

Indeed. In one of the first live feeds of the year (1/9/19) Jeff pulled up their 2018 total sales qty and revenue total. 4054 total instruments, $7.5m-ish in total sales. Does Suhr ever publish any totals or estimates?

Suhr doesn't seem to publish production numbers.

I'm going off of what I've seen over the years, including my own orders I've put it.

There are almost 200 2018 models for sale just on Reverb right now. Then you have almost 200 dealers and importers, who seem to stock anywhere from just a few to dozens of them.

I doubt that they're ten times the size of Kiesel or anything, but I also doubt they're significantly smaller, if at all.

 

[MoistTowelette]

Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.

I don't know about that, man. I've own/owned a Mayones, Skervesen, and 4 Kiesels. I would say they were all near the same level quality wise. Hell, my skervy had tool marks on the fretboard and the high e action wouldn't go lower than 1.5 mm.

 

[The 1]

Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.

I don't know about that, man. I've own/owned a Mayones, Skervesen, and 4 Kiesels. I would say they were all near the same level quality wise. Hell, my skervy had tool marks on the fretboard and the high e action wouldn't go lower than 1.5 mm.

I had a Skervesen that had sharp frets, one of the worst I've come across even compared to much cheaper guitars. Although that might've been due to fret sprouts.

I've also come to realize after going through all kinds of high-end guitars, that guitars can only realistically get so good. After a certain threshold, guitars don't necessarily improve with quality. The differences in prices are more attributed to brand prestige and market perception. There are differences in design and features that may appeal to different people so some might find certain guitars worth a higher price to them, but I wouldn't say those high-end boutique brands necessarily blow Kiesel out of the water. Specific examples might, but there are also examples that counter.

 

[Vyn]

I had a Skervesen that had sharp frets, one of the worst I've come across even compared to much cheaper guitars. Although that might've been due to fret sprouts.

I've also come to realize after going through all kinds of high-end guitars, that guitars can only realistically get so good. After a certain threshold, guitars don't necessarily improve with quality. The differences in prices are more attributed to brand prestige and market perception. There are differences in design and features that may appeal to different people so some might find certain guitars worth a higher price to them, but I wouldn't say those high-end boutique brands necessarily blow Kiesel out of the water. Specific examples might, but there are also examples that counter.

^This. More people need to realise this. I think it's part of the reason why so many custom builds end up on reverb almost straight after the owner gets them because they've sunk all this money into their 'dream guitar' only to find out it actually doesn't play that much better than their Prestige-level guitar.

 

[Hollowway]

...guitars can only realistically get so good. After a certain threshold, guitars don't necessarily improve with quality. The differences in prices are more attributed to brand prestige and market perception. There are differences in design and features that may appeal to different people so some might find certain guitars worth a higher price to them, but I wouldn't say those high-end boutique brands necessarily blow Kiesel out of the water. Specific examples might, but there are also examples that counter.

100% agree. There are certain things that are in the “above and beyond” department, like the way the fret ends are done, or Padalka-level wiring. But quality necessarily stops at perfect. Woods may add to the cost, but not nearly as much as some companies (looking at you, Kiesel) would have you believe. Basically, a luthier will charge whatever they can get away with. That’s the “‘market” and WE are the ones driving up the prices. I’m quite sure that Skervesen’s are pricey because they look super cool. And Aristides is priced high because it’s what all the cool kids are getting (and doesn’t look cool )
As most of us have said, I think Kiesel guitars are crazy good for their base price. But you really have to be on bath salts to spend $5000 for one. Not because it’s not a good guitar, but precisely because it’s no better that the base model Kiesel. I really don’t care if Jeff touched it, looked at it, chose the wood, or dreamt about it. It’s still built on the same line as the rest of them.
IMO, if Kiesel were smart (and not to repeat myself too much, but I don’t think Jeff is as good of a businessman as he could be. I think he’s a good hype man, but he’s his own worst enemy in business) they’d release a line that was exclusive to a higher pricing tier. That way, if you wanted it, you’d have to pay extra. Their Kiesel Edition was an attempt at that, but all offered was different options. The actual guitar was the same as the low end models. Basically, they made a Honda Pilot with a special options package. I’m saying they should create an Acura level, and give us a reason to spend a lot on something different. Most other guitar companies do that.

Of course, I would suggest that the first order of business is to put the customer first, above all else. Put this occasional bad customer service stuff to rest.

 

[Cynicanal]

Their Kiesel Edition was an attempt at that, but all offered was different options. The actual guitar was the same as the low end models. Basically, they made a Honda Pilot with a special options package.

Provided that what you mean is the K-Series, it's a shape you can't get on any of their reasonably priced guitars (it's slightly different than the DC600).

 

[Hollowway]

Provided that what you mean is the K-Series, it's a shape you can't get on any of their reasonably priced guitars (it's slightly different than the DC600).

Oh really? I didn’t even realize that. Though, I would say if it’s not different enough to make it distinctive to a casual gear nerd, then maybe it’s not different enough. But thanks for pointing that out - I had no idea it’s its own model.

 

[spudmunkey]

It was more noticeable before the DC line revamp, but the K series (launched as the 70th anniversary model, which was 4 years ago) had a unique body that had a vanquish-like bevel around the perimeter, a larger forearm bent contour, and a deeper upper fret access cutaway, and differently-shaped horns. If you look at the K series as a sort of "concept car", it was their halo model that showed hints of features and designs for models of the future. A few years after the K series launch, the DC series was given a couple of it's aspects (the pushed-out horn on the bass-side, and a deeper fret access cutaway on the treble side).

Pink = new DC700
Koa = K7

 

[bubingaisgod]

You may be right spudmunkey, but I don't think what I said qualifies as "bitching".
Just giving my experiences. I can't argue with the lack of options available in the past.
You have a much better grasp on the timeline of their pricing than I do.

 

[MetalHead40]

Did your kesel have that weird issue where the hipshot had all the saddles jacked all the way up to clear the frets properly? I remember seeing this was an issue a while back because of something with the bodycut/neck pocket height or something and that was kiesel's workaround to get the hipshots to work. Never saw if they remedied this. Don't even know why I really care cause I'll never buy a Kiesel anway as I already went through my Carvin phase and was never 100% satisfied with them.

Not sure who you were asking, but that was the exact issue with the one they sent me. Saddles jacked to the fullest extent.

 

[MetalHead40]

I am not sure if I had that exact issue. But I had so many others.

I think when the company was Carvin, they made better instruments. My bass player has a Carvin Bass which is really quite good in feel and sound. And yes I agree, I will never buy another Kiesel! I would also tell everyone I know to stay away!!

Agreed! I have an older Carvin ST300c and it's a fine instrument. The Aries 6 I had the debacle with was a sad excuse for a guitar and their customer service was as unprofessional as it gets.

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

It was more noticeable before the DC line revamp, but the K series (launched as the 70th anniversary model, which was 4 years ago) had a unique body that had a vanquish-like bevel around the perimeter, a larger forearm bent contour, and a deeper upper fret access cutaway, and differently-shaped horns. If you look at the K series as a sort of "concept car", it was their halo model that showed hints of features and designs for models of the future. A few years after the K series launch, the DC series was given a couple of it's aspects (the pushed-out horn on the bass-side, and a deeper fret access cutaway on the treble side).

Pink = new DC700
Koa = K7

That's cool to see. I do think the shape of the DC700 is the best it's looked to date. I just tried to spec one for fun. But I saw no floyd option? That's a stupid move on Kiesels part, I'm sure the hipshot trem is nice. But a floyd is something they should always offer! Did they do away with floyds on all models?

 

[spudmunkey]

I just tried to spec one for fun. But I saw no floyd option? That's a stupid move on Kiesels part, I'm sure the hipshot trem is nice. But a floyd is something they should always offer! Did they do away with floyds on all models?

They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.

At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.

At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.

It fits along with the push to streamline options and reduce the number of program variations.

Now they don't need a second neck plot for the locking nut shelf, different neck joint geometry, or body routes.

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.

At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.

That basically keeps me from wanting to order a dc7000. At this point the only thing I'm considering is a headless. While I'm sure the hipshot is a fine product, but I'm hooked on Floyd's. Have you tried the hipshot compared to a floyd?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

That basically keeps me from wanting to order a dc7000. At this point the only thing I'm considering is a headless. While I'm sure the hipshot is a fine product, but I'm hooked on Floyd's. Have you tried the hipshot compared to a floyd?

Apples to oranges. The Hipshot will be just fine for most trem users, on the condition that the guitar is setup properly for the use it'll recieve, which goes for just about anything.

But, if you're part of the ~25% of trem users that needs a) the stability of a locking system and b) the greater mass behind the saddles for certain trem "tricks", you'll be better off skipping on Kiesel for something with a Floyd.

 

[Mike]

Not sure who you were asking, but that was the exact issue with the one they sent me. Saddles jacked to the fullest extent.

Lol was asking the op from another kiesel problem thread that ended up getting combined into this one thus making me look like I was asking the void

 

[Hollowway]

asking the void

Adding that to my “cool future band name list.”

 

[narad]

Adding that to my “cool future band name list.”

So you're going metal-core now?

 

[Andromalia]

Adding that to my “cool future band name list.”

Ok, I'm left with "Another Kiesel Problem" then ? Meh.

that saif about guitar value, realistically from what I've played, you get into "good enough for mostly everything" from a lowly Gibson tribute, that's 800ish€.