Kiesel --- Never Again!

[Spaced Out Ace]

Jesus Christ, Kiesel just continues to be a bigger and bigger shitshow ran by a total fucking tool.

The "Now that we're... MEN!" Spongebob segment was hysterical.

 

[mbardu]

Are you really that fucking obtuse? This is about more than a shit roasting job, it’s that the fingerboard and neck don’t match..

And nobody said the opposite so you're beating a dead horse. Looks like you didn't even read the post you've replied to, or that you didn't attempt to understand it, because nobody denied the matching job was very bad.

Does that mean that people on the internet can tell the fretboard is not roasted? Absolutely not. Those are two separate facts that have no bearing on one another.

Its really tiring repeating the same thing over and over for people with no reading comprehension.

And again with an unrelated (warmoth) argument and random price. I'm just as much a fan of warmoth as the next guy, but nobody asked and it's not relevant

 

[Jeff]

And nobody said the opposite so you're beating a dead horse. Looks like you didn't even read the post you've replied to, or that you didn't attempt to understand it, because nobody denied the matching job was very bad.

Does that mean that people on the internet can tell the fretboard is not roasted? Absolutely not. Those are two separate facts that have no bearing on one another.

Its really tiring repeating the same thing over and over for people with no reading comprehension.

And again with an unrelated (warmoth) argument and random price. I'm just as much a fan of warmoth as the next guy, but nobody asked and it's not relevant

You really don’t get it.
okay, shill. That’s why you spent time looking for examples of other roasted maple. Have a nice evening.

 

[xzacx]

You really don’t get it.
okay, shill. That’s why you spent time looking for examples of other roasted maple. Have a nice evening.

Give him a break, his PRS example backfired when it was quickly noted that the board and neck matched, but he was talking about VALUE. Haven't you heard what a great value Kiesels are?!

 

[Jeff]

Give him a break, his PRS example backfired when it was quickly noted that the board and neck matched, but he was talking about VALUE. Haven't you heard what a great value Kiesels are?!

Oh yeah! I forgot. Great. Value. Yeah that’s it.

 

[mbardu]

If after 3 explanations you guys still can't see that the sole reason for the PRS example was to deny the claim of "I can absolutely tell that the fretboard is not made of roasted maple because it's light colored" from some people (and nothing more, I was not the one who brought up value...), then I don't know what to do about you guys. I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt re- that you may at least have been trying to argue in good faith. Clearly misguided though!
Keep bringing up unrelated arguments, then walking them back when they make no sense, and enjoy the circlejerking. I guess a couple of emojis are easier when you can't actually type a full sentence that makes sense.

 

[Decapitated]

BOOM! Roasted.


Ok, that’s all I have to offer this thread.

 

[Velokki]

I know people way too well (not Jeff personally) to spot a pattern.

Jeff isn't that stupid of a businessman that he'd risk his company, and is willing to do a lot to rectify the situation. But this is really just only PR. This is kinda comparable to an oil company that gladly ruins a town's environment, and uses lawyers to fight the complaining citizens. When the situation goes really public, and politicians start to wake up to the disaster, and the company would be potentially facing 500 million in damages - then you would see them making a real "heartfelt" apology, offering to clean the town's sewage systems, rebuild and relocate the town's school, and promise never to pollute the environment again. Now, why would the oil company do this? Because it's convenient and needed. They have to, otherwise they won't have a business to run anymore. And that "apology" saves them a lot of money.

In the last couple of years I've really started to appreciate solid core values among companies and individuals. They dictate how you act when no one is watching, and how consistent you are with your behavior.
In the case of Kiesel, if you imagine ten difficult situations with employees and customers, and think how Jeff would act and treat people... yeah, I don't really think he'd be an exemplary role model.

I just think that Jeff is an insecure person with power, which makes him act like a bully. When you get an apology video like this - when it's needed and convenient - it's just a part of the pattern. I still won't buy their guitars. Not until the company's culture (and hopefully management) makes a lasting change.

 

[Jonathan20022]

@mbardu, I really hope you take a step back and maybe reflect like Jeff has. The concept of picking your battles and choosing what hill to die on is pretty valuable. You are fighting to the absolute death to point out and recognize the following.

"Kiesel could have done this better, but I am going to also highlight any positive I can in the situation"

1. Kiesel builds a great instrument at a solid value for an American made Semi Custom Guitar.
2. He apologized, in a surprising move which is an overall net positive like someone else highlighted.
3. He reverted his policies and elected to provide some more choice in the matter to prevent mishaps like this from happening.

That's fantastic, and a valuable set of lessons learned. This might be a bit of a leading question, but what issue do you take with critiquing a business and expecting better from them?

IE: What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing:

1. Anti-consumer no return policies. And they are anti-consumer because marketing your business as a custom shop and pushing for no return options as your main pitch. Then relying on them as a crutch when they do not perform as expected.
2. He claims the current situation and workload were the leadup to poor decision making. We've all been there, but the reality is he's always had this kind of reaction even when business is booming and there is less stress involved. I sure would have appreciated some courtesy when my interaction went south, as I'm sure plenty of others would have. I'd still be ordering Kiesels and the Purple Sparkle HSS Aries I was speccing with Chris Hong while my redwood pair was being built would have happened.
3. Why divert expectations of improvement, like choosing the color of your roast. Is this a bad thing? Why is expecting your upcharged fretboard to look like 99% of darker brown necks when you Google Search "Roasted Maple Neck", a bad thing? *Will touch on your PRS example later*
4. Outlining that the fucking fretboard MAY be roasted. When you and I clearly have no way to identify it's moisture content and validating it. Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization. So choosing an anecdotal example of a lighter than the average shade of roasted maple on a production guitar does nothing for your argument. Leaving the only method we as spectators can use, our eyes.
5. Justifying the matching of the fretboard and neck on the customer's guitar. This isn't a case of color blindness, that neck is way darker than the fretboard. This is an undisputable fact. That leaves room for doubt of it's classification, and guess what could have avoided that? Matching the neck and fretboard better.

So all in all, why are you so against criticism of their process? Do you deny that if Jeff had handled this privately, and apologized to the client while offering either a rebuild or a refund for what is clearly a mistake. But instead of doing what you have in this thread and standing firm for God knows what reason? Because they will build you a base guitar for a decent value?

The neck you chose to point out is not in fact light. The funniest part of the PRS' you decided to show, is that those pictures are lit in pretty bright scenarios making the necks look lighter than they are.

Like this shot, what is this trying to prove? The neck is being showered in light and the bottom left of the photo is darker than the mismatched Kiesel's fretboard. If you used a softbox to light the room instead of natural light, the shade actually blends pretty fairly into PRS' professionaly shot image of the same exact guitar.

But in the end your defense that it could be roasted has no foundation. This pic is from Musikraft.com on the topic of roasting, the customer's neck looks like the preroasted image.

Musickraft.com also shows you what LIGHT roasting looks like. "Light" looks like a tinted Fender Neck, if you want to be objective and make the point that the customer received anything close to the two necks below then you're delusional.

I also implore you to find more than a few deceptively lit shots of roasted necks to prove your point.

https://www.warmoth.com/Pages/ClassicShowcase.aspx?Body=1&Shape=1&Type=1&nWood=20

https://www.google.com/search?q=lig...qeN8Ac&bih=1239&biw=1279#imgrc=QnB-rZiqjwAqdM

But the reality is, your enjoyment of their guitars and the value you feel they bring is separate from the facts I've outlined.

 

[SlamLiguez]

Schooled

 

[Edika]

Well Jeff did address at least all the issues that he had backlash on this specific issue. He didn't take any responsibility for any other issues his company has been criticized off but he at least mentions trying to have a better CS experience. We'll see. But with the whole fake promos and the non sincere apology these two things came to mind:

 

[lewis]

despite what his fanbois in here want to die by, I will never believe this customers fretboard was roasted.
It looks exactly like 3 of my unroasted maple fretboard guitars. Like exactly.

He can claim it was to try and make his company not look like they made a silly error - but in reality it makes them look sillier to me when its obviously a lie.

All the "proof" pictures posted of how maple can still look light when roasted, all still blatantly appear much darker than the customers fretboard.

ergo it was an unroasted fretboard set on a roasted neck. Which not only looked dumb asf, but wasnt what was ordered.
Trying to pretend it was is nonsense.

be like me buying a car and wanting black leather interior.
The dealer gives me one with white leather interior instead and starts claiming it had the "black leather treatment" and we are not completely in control of how black or not interiors get. (when its blatantly just a white interior)

People will honestly just believe anything this douche says.

I agree with a previous post. His apology is just convenient to protect his business. Cleverly placed buzzwords in the apology to hoodwink people into thinking THIS time he means it, is incredibly transparent to me.

and to think, all he had to do was be like "wow we are really sorry we made this error. We must of just looked at your spec sheet wrong and thought you wanted plain maple board. Lets correct that for you ASAP - especially as a valued customer"

not so difficult is it.

 

[Carl Kolchak]

If the "Jeff Flex" didn't become an embarrassing meme he wouldn't have apologized, it's as simple as that.

Meme magic works.

 

[Sogradde]

When you start your half-assed apology with a bunch of made up excuses for your shitty behavior...

 

[lewis]

When you start your half-assed apology with a bunch of made up excuses for your shitty behavior...

and even say "sorry, but I was right"

 

[Sogradde]

and even say "sorry, but I was right"

I didn't even make it that far.

 

[Jeff]

If after 3 explanations you guys still can't see that the sole reason for the PRS example was to deny the claim of "I can absolutely tell that the fretboard is not made of roasted maple because it's light colored" from some people (and nothing more, I was not the one who brought up value...), then I don't know what to do about you guys. I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt re- that you may at least have been trying to argue in good faith. Clearly misguided though!
Keep bringing up unrelated arguments, then walking them back when they make no sense, and enjoy the circlejerking. I guess a couple of emojis are easier when you can't actually type a full sentence that makes sense.

Serious Dunning Kruger effect going on here.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

This is 100% true, they do demand the guitars back if you do not end up staying with them. There have been multiple accounts of this, but most aren't public about it for obvious reasons. I know Robby from The Contortionist tried Kiesel for a bit and Cam told me he had to ship the guitar back when he stayed with Ibanez.

So that explains the "artist used" guitars in the GIS section.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

Just watched the video. If I were an artist, I would be bailing at this point. I wouldn't want my name associated with someone that isn't willing to take care of the people whose money they subsist off of. Its certainly a flex. And its undeniably misguided. You'd never catch John Suhr, or Tom Anderson, or Sterling Ball treating a customer like that. They all bend over backwards for customers. John Suhr fired his head CS guy for shit like this. Granted, it was the guy's treatment of an artist that got him fired. Still. If your customers can't trust you and you continuously do things to cause increased mistrust, you're going to alienate all of your patronage. I lost interest when Jeff started ranting about being the best built stuff out there. I'd played Suhr, Anderson, Alembic, Ormsby, BFRs, and Conklins at that point. It's literally untrue. Might be the best option for someone based on specs. But, certainly not the best quality instruments. I'll pick a company with amazing customer service and some QC issues, over a company with less QC issues and shit customer service any day of the week. The other builders I mentioned have less QC issues that I know of and always err on the side of the customer to my knowledge. Kiesel has BOTH of the mentioned brand issues. I won't give them any of my cash again.

I got mad when he started taking potshots at other makers. For all the hate i have for the likes of ESP, or the love i have for ibanez, them being Japanese companies means they would rather let their guitars do the talking and they dont take potshots at other makers. I remember a few of his early failbook livestreams he was openly taking shots at "asian" guitar makers, but we all know that ESP/Ibanez/Caparison/Sugi/etc make goddamn amazing instruments for their audiences.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

Seriously? So instead of actually confronting their issues, you're okay with them just slyly hiding their issues instead? How do you not see an issue with that? I know Mike Jones, he posts in their a couple times a week. I was spammed today from Facebook notifications about Mike posting in the group about 7 times this morning. If you really can't see an issue with this, you're as blind as the rest of the Kiesel sheep.

I'm with you on the never again buying from them bangwagon. I'm just gonna go find another used Cobran and call it a day.