Kiesel --- Never Again!

[MatiasTolkki]

Wow....that video is UNBELIEVABLE!! Now, NO roasted maple board is white. Ever. EVER. I'm an amateur builder and *I* know that. If you used anything but near-white birdseye (or plain) maple, you're using lower-grade maple - sapwood. No stand-up builder would use that low grade of wood.

After watching that video, I would never, ever buy a guitar from him. What a dick.

$20 says Jeff is a Trump supporter. Guaranteed.

BTW, if those quilted tops are a $400 upcharge, I better get moving. That's some nice margins there, folks.

Jeff is from Commiefornia, definitely not a trump supporter.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

I mean this is more then we've gotten from him in the past but this is also the first time it coincided with a comically awful live meltdown and it blowing up in his face. The cynic in my doesn't like how many excuses he has and how he only touches on this one incident and not their overarching issue with returns.

On the flip side, it's not like the dude is out murdering anyone and doing something that's so completely unforgivable or whatever that he's beyond any sort of redemption. I think this is a half decent apology/starting point, but there needs to be some confidence building going on in the future. There's a lot going on right now. The world is in a spot it hasn't been in in a long time. It's going to effect people differently.

It's disingenuous to write Kiesel off as a whole because of this and other incidents. This can be a real starting point to make some great changes for them. Only time will tell what actually happens. But if their return structure doesn't change as a whole, it'll be hard to convince me to buy one. They just can't have the laughably awful system they have in place now moving forward.

Doesnt help when the media is out to create a panic over something that doesnt deserve the panic its getting.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

I know people way too well (not Jeff personally) to spot a pattern.

Jeff isn't that stupid of a businessman that he'd risk his company, and is willing to do a lot to rectify the situation. But this is really just only PR. This is kinda comparable to an oil company that gladly ruins a town's environment, and uses lawyers to fight the complaining citizens. When the situation goes really public, and politicians start to wake up to the disaster, and the company would be potentially facing 500 million in damages - then you would see them making a real "heartfelt" apology, offering to clean the town's sewage systems, rebuild and relocate the town's school, and promise never to pollute the environment again. Now, why would the oil company do this? Because it's convenient and needed. They have to, otherwise they won't have a business to run anymore. And that "apology" saves them a lot of money.

In the last couple of years I've really started to appreciate solid core values among companies and individuals. They dictate how you act when no one is watching, and how consistent you are with your behavior.
In the case of Kiesel, if you imagine ten difficult situations with employees and customers, and think how Jeff would act and treat people... yeah, I don't really think he'd be an exemplary role model.

I just think that Jeff is an insecure person with power, which makes him act like a bully. When you get an apology video like this - when it's needed and convenient - it's just a part of the pattern. I still won't buy their guitars. Not until the company's culture (and hopefully management) makes a lasting change.

Look up Minomata syndrome, that fits your apology scenario far more than you can imagine... because it really happened.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

despite what his fanbois in here want to die by, I will never believe this customers fretboard was roasted.
It looks exactly like 3 of my unroasted maple fretboard guitars. Like exactly.

He can claim it was to try and make his company not look like they made a silly error - but in reality it makes them look sillier to me when its obviously a lie.

All the "proof" pictures posted of how maple can still look light when roasted, all still blatantly appear much darker than the customers fretboard.

ergo it was an unroasted fretboard set on a roasted neck. Which not only looked dumb asf, but wasnt what was ordered.
Trying to pretend it was is nonsense.

be like me buying a car and wanting black leather interior.
The dealer gives me one with white leather interior instead and starts claiming it had the "black leather treatment" and we are not completely in control of how black or not interiors get. (when its blatantly just a white interior)

People will honestly just believe anything this douche says.

I agree with a previous post. His apology is just convenient to protect his business. Cleverly placed buzzwords in the apology to hoodwink people into thinking THIS time he means it, is incredibly transparent to me.

and to think, all he had to do was be like "wow we are really sorry we made this error. We must of just looked at your spec sheet wrong and thought you wanted plain maple board. Lets correct that for you ASAP - especially as a valued customer"

not so difficult is it.

My JB200's flame maple fingerboard is darker than that "roasted" one, and my jb200 was bought when it was still carvin.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

If the "Jeff Flex" didn't become an embarrassing meme he wouldn't have apologized, it's as simple as that.

Meme magic works.

Shandalay

Praise kek.

 

[budda]

This guy cracks me up.

 

[narad]

Shandalay

Praise kek.

Damn, dude. Multiquote.

 

[Jeff]

I expected to come in and see some serious conversation.....turns out it’s mostly one guy talking to himself.

I found out Kiesel has a new product on the way. They’re branching out!

 

[mbardu]

@mbardu, I really hope you take a step back and maybe reflect like Jeff has. The concept of picking your battles and choosing what hill to die on is pretty valuable. You are fighting to the absolute death to point out and recognize the following.

"Kiesel could have done this better, but I am going to also highlight any positive I can in the situation"

1. Kiesel builds a great instrument at a solid value for an American made Semi Custom Guitar.
2. He apologized, in a surprising move which is an overall net positive like someone else highlighted.
3. He reverted his policies and elected to provide some more choice in the matter to prevent mishaps like this from happening.

That's fantastic, and a valuable set of lessons learned. This might be a bit of a leading question, but what issue do you take with critiquing a business and expecting better from them?

IE: What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing:

1. Anti-consumer no return policies. And they are anti-consumer because marketing your business as a custom shop and pushing for no return options as your main pitch. Then relying on them as a crutch when they do not perform as expected.
2. He claims the current situation and workload were the leadup to poor decision making. We've all been there, but the reality is he's always had this kind of reaction even when business is booming and there is less stress involved. I sure would have appreciated some courtesy when my interaction went south, as I'm sure plenty of others would have. I'd still be ordering Kiesels and the Purple Sparkle HSS Aries I was speccing with Chris Hong while my redwood pair was being built would have happened.
3. Why divert expectations of improvement, like choosing the color of your roast. Is this a bad thing? Why is expecting your upcharged fretboard to look like 99% of darker brown necks when you Google Search "Roasted Maple Neck", a bad thing? *Will touch on your PRS example later*
4. Outlining that the fucking fretboard MAY be roasted. When you and I clearly have no way to identify it's moisture content and validating it. Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization. So choosing an anecdotal example of a lighter than the average shade of roasted maple on a production guitar does nothing for your argument. Leaving the only method we as spectators can use, our eyes.
5. Justifying the matching of the fretboard and neck on the customer's guitar. This isn't a case of color blindness, that neck is way darker than the fretboard. This is an undisputable fact. That leaves room for doubt of it's classification, and guess what could have avoided that? Matching the neck and fretboard better.

I appreciate the wall of text, but I am just going to go back to your main point "What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing..." to ask you to point me even a single instance where I did that. If you can find even one instance I'll correct it, if not you'll see you're beating the same dead horse as the others (everybody agrees with: 1-very bad match, 2-bad customer service decision, 3-Jeff).
By saying "Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization", you are agreeing exactly with the only point I was making (nobody on the internet can say one way or another) and negating the need for the rest of your argument.
Even in the last page, people are still trying to make that point without any proof and I just like to point out that no, they in fact cannot. Even if you are the proud owner of a random guitar with a regular maple fretboard, you cannot just decide the materials in someone else's guitar through pictures from the internet.
Why this equate to "hur dur this guy is a Kiesel fanboy who likes Jeff and their customer service" (which again, nobody said) is beyond me.

Serious Dunning Kruger effect going on here.

I expected to come in and see some serious conversation.....turns out it’s mostly one guy talking to himself.

I found out Kiesel has a new product on the way. They’re branching out!

Well I see you however are still very high in both the reading comprehension and argumented replies categories. But do enlighten me how you contribute to said serious conversation when you can't really formulate a single reply besides a meme effect and a picture.

 

[Jeff]

I appreciate the wall of text, but I am just going to go back to your main point "What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing..." to ask you to point me even a single instance where I did that. If you can find even one instance I'll correct it, if not you'll see you're beating the same dead horse as the others (everybody agrees with: 1-very bad match, 2-bad customer service decision, 3-Jeff).
By saying "Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization", you are agreeing exactly with the only point I was making (nobody on the internet can say one way or another) and negating the need for the rest of your argument.
Even in the last page, people are still trying to make that point without any proof and I just like to point out that no, they in fact cannot. Even if you are the proud owner of a random guitar with a regular maple fretboard, you cannot just decide the materials in someone else's guitar through pictures from the internet.
Why this equate to "hur dur this guy is a Kiesel fanboy who likes Jeff and their customer service" (which again, nobody said) is beyond me.



Well I see you however are still very high in both the reading comprehension and argumented replies categories. But do enlighten me how you contribute to serious conversation when you can't really formulate a single reply besides a meme effect and a picture.

Like I said, you suffer from Dunning Kruger. When you think you’re the smartest guy in the room, but everyone else constantly points out that’s not the case, maybe it’s time to look inward? But by all means, let’s keep throwing out the bullshit. Maybe some of it will stick!

 

[mbardu]

Like I said, you suffer from Dunning Kruger. When you think you’re the smartest guy in the room, but everyone else constantly points out that’s not the case, maybe it’s time to look inward? But by all means, let’s keep throwing out the bullshit. Maybe some of it will stick!

The funny thing with the "Dunning Kruger" mention is that it has become so, so overused that it's become a pretty funny way to find out the people who actually suffer from it. People who hide behind a "meme effect" they've read once on reddit and now think they're experts (while being unable to separate two pretty distinct ideras) is usually pretty telling.

Keep with your empty sentences, emojis, or strawman argument against imagined things nobody said, knock yourself out- it's what's going to give you the likes . If you want to actually point out anything I said (and quote me) that you have an argument against, I'll be happy to oblige. I just suspect you can't.

 

[Jeff]

The funny thing is that with the "Dunning Kruger" mention is that it has become so, so overused that it's become a pretty funny way to find out the people who actually suffer from it. People who hide behind a "meme effect" they've read once on reddit and now think they're experts (while being unable to separate two pretty distinct ideras) is usually pretty telling.

Ooh, solid point! You should ponder that, whilst looking for more examples of roasted necks! It’s disappointing you can’t see what the actual problem people have with both this situation and Kiesel in general. If you could be pragmatic while still being a fan, it would help the brand move forward. Instead, it just feeds into the problem. Ah well. Many more brands to choose from.

 

[mbardu]

Ooh, solid point! You should ponder that, whilst looking for more examples of roasted necks! It’s disappointing you can’t see what the actual problem people have with both this situation and Kiesel in general. If you could be pragmatic while still being a fan, it would help the brand move forward. Instead, it just feeds into the problem. Ah well. Many more brands to choose from.

I still fail to see any quote of anything I said you actually have an actual argument against. Please do show.

If by being pragmatic, you mean repeating the same 1/2/3 facts of the matter (bad match/bad customer service/jeffy Jeff) that everyone agrees on, then please feel free to re-read (or maybe actually just read the previous pages)- it's there a lot already.

If by being pragmatic your point is "let's close our eyes and pretend that gorgeous piece of quilt is actually ugly, or let's pretend we now can tell which wood is what through pictures on the internet (and other assorted made up criticisms) if it helps hate on Kiesel even more", then no I don't agree with that. They do enough wrong that they should be criticized for and we don't need to invent new things just because- it doesn't help the argument and just shows the one-sided anti-Kiesel sentiment.

 

[narad]

I don't agree with mbardu's points but these are points of a subjective nature. Let's not try to "Dunning Kruger" through every disagreement. It is one of those phrases that's used more incorrectly than correctly these days.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I don't agree with mbardu's points but these are points of a subjective nature. Let's not try to "Dunning Kruger" through every disagreement. It is one of those phrases that's used more incorrectly than correctly these days.

That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.

Did I internet right?

 

[mbardu]

That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.

Did I internet right?

Almost- you just need some Godwin's Law and we'll be all set

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Almost- you just need some Godwin's Law and we'll be all set

And a razor, you always need a razor, and for extra credit, a window or two.

 

[narad]

That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.

Did I internet right?

Hey, in my day we didn't try to use journal citations to call someone an idiot. You just had to lay it all out there and take your negative rep.

 

[spudmunkey]

That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.

Did I internet right?

Should have gone with a used prestige.

Almost- you just need some Godwin's Law and we'll be all set

This comment is very Poe's Law.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

I mean, my thoughts on the situation are simple. Guy bought guitar. Guitar was woefully mismatched (all seem to agree.) Customer was rightfully put off by it (all seem to agree.) Customer brings it up. Jeff insulted the customer, which is unprofessional and uncalled for. (All seem to agree.)

I don't like giving business to someone who insults the people who put money in their pockets, especially when the customer was in fact right. I don't think anyone should. We certainly shouldn't pretend it's okay, especially when the guy has shown a pattern of this behavior.

Then again, I guess it doesn't matter unless it happens to you. It's all fun and games until you personally get flexed on by a man-child in the wrong.