New build - HENT one piece 7string!

[Gregori]

Carefull when using epoxy:
Glue strength testing

I always thought epoxy was the best choice for a fretboard. I was even going to use it on my current build. Now I can see that I have a lot more research to do on this.

Wintersun, there is no doubt in my mind that he made some sort of mistake while gluing. Perhaps he didn't tighten the clamps enough? If he tells you that is normal, then I would question his standards because such an obvious glue joint shouldn't be accepted as a standard in lutherie. But that's not to say it's a fatal mistake. If the bond is strong enough to do the job, and it won't be visible, then I don't see any reason to dwell on it. But if he swears that something like that is normal, then his integrity should be in question. I don't know if he's been telling you that, I'm just putting that out there.

I definitely don't buy into the stuff about epoxy sounding better than glue, or a nitro finish sounding better than a poly finish.

 

[anthonyferguson]

There doesn't look to be a gap there-it's just a glue line. It could be number of things, but maybe the grain tore slightly when it was planed, and that part of the edge is where some small voids are. I really wouldn't have said it's going to compromise the strength of bond. I can assure you if it was an ebony or rosewood board it'd be totally invisible and no-one would take a second glance!

 

[wintersun]

Perhaps he didn't tighten the clamps enough?

This is my thought as well. I'll go there soon and ask him directly what the deal is. Maybe he really didn't tighten it enough on that part, and didn't notice himself, cos I only noticed with hi res camera picture, and as you can tell its super thin, like a fraction of a millimeter. I mean, 30 years or not, everyone can make a mistake, but admitting is essential. Everything else he did absolutely perfect up until now, and if its not that serious, I would really let it be.

Regarding his integrity, I have to say that he really is an awesome and totally friendly guy. He could have exploited me quite a bit, but instead, for example as I currently don't have a license, he comes with his car, picks me up, and takes me there to have a look at the guitar. We go have couple beers, and refuses that I pay. He could have charged me like crazy for this guitar, but didn't as he knew I got fcked by Roter and partially by another Croatian luthier. There are other examples as well, but basically, thinking about it, I don't think hes getting that much gain from me. I barely convinced him to make him a website as a sign of appreciation lol.

All this also means that I don't really feel like being a dick and telling him "remove that fretboard and glue it back again". Nor that I think its necessary.

Nitro vs Poly and epoxy vs glue is another story and I seriously don't care as long as what I get sounds and works great. He and anyone else can have their own opinions. I don't have one, not until I get some conclusive evidence at least But my GUESS is, since Poly is basically plastic, it probably does dampen the sound at least a little bit.

I will however report and RECORD the difference in sound once that other guitar gets refinished to Nitro. It will be an excellent experiment.

 

[wintersun]

There doesn't look to be a gap there-it's just a glue line. It could be number of things, but maybe the grain tore slightly when it was planed, and that part of the edge is where some small voids are. I really wouldn't have said it's going to compromise the strength of bond. I can assure you if it was an ebony or rosewood board it'd be totally invisible and no-one would take a second glance!

I really hope thats the case And like I said, my friend said he saw those exact mini gaps on several rosewood-board guitars. This is all maple and zoomed in ridiculously, so its probably why it looks so obvious.

 

[demonx]

the sole fact that he MADE a choice to use Nitro over Poly and epoxy over glue, means much more than if he just followed what everyone else is doing nowadays (or just not having an opinion at all). Every luthier here I know uses Polyurethane, and he just refuses

Probably because Nitro is easier and cheaper than Poly. I use 2k (which fits into the poly family)

As far as epoxy, I have epoxy here than can be used as glue, but i never use it as a glue. I use F9 and Titebond.

In reguards to that glue joint, my 2c is it looks like he has clamped it with clamps only and not a caul, then left it in varying temperature and the fingerboard has curled during the curing process. Only a guess. OR - maybe the surfaces were not prepped thorough enough? Who knows.

I'm not a "massive" builder, BUT - if that happened to me it'd get put in the "that didn't work" pile and do it again.

As far as te rest of the guitar - it looks great, he definitely does some neat and tidy work with exception of that one screw up which I'm sure he is not happy with himself.

 

[Necromagnon]

About the influence of the laquer, just think of it that way: the sound you hear on your amp goes from where? Does the vibration of the body HAVE to leave and travel through the air from the guitar body to your hear like it is for a speaker?
Obviously not. Breathing of wood and all this stupid thing is (and even not so much) true for acoustic, as 1) the thickness of the laquer is much more consequent compared to the thickness of the material (0.5 mm of laquer on a table of 2.2 mm or on a body of 40 mm don't have the same impact...), 2) the acoustic tone is directly made from the vibration of the body going through the air around the guitar and so there can be damping with laquer.
But on an electric...
He could have used the fact that PU are higly chemical and dangerous for healt and environnement, and that's why I don't use it also. But the question about tone... I'd rather believe in raining donuts before it.

About glue... If glue doesn't conduct well the vibration, and combining it to the fact that epoxy needs a thicker joint, would it make sense to you?
The problem is that between to guitars that seem to be similar, there's 100 parameters that differ. And people are putting justification on just 2/3 of them, and that's all.
Even in the same lumber of wood, there's huge difference, so how can we possibly asserts such things?

But anyway, that doesn't take anything about this project and all, don't worry. It's just that it needs to be higly moderate when people talking about the influence of something else that pu/strings/hardware/carefullness of building.

 

[wintersun]

Probably because Nitro is easier and cheaper than Poly.

Nah. He does work with it if customer insists. I guess I used too strong word there. He doesn't prefer it would be more correct. He would never use it on his own guitars tho.

As for it being cheap.. well, let me put it this way. He also refuses to use cheap hardware

so no, hes not cutting the costs by using Nitro. He just honestly prefers it for reasons mentioned earlier.

 

[wintersun]

About the influence of the laquer, just think of it that way: the sound you hear on your amp goes from where? Does the vibration of the body HAVE to leave and travel through the air from the guitar body to your hear like it is for a speaker?
Obviously not. Breathing of wood and all this stupid thing is (and even not so much) true for acoustic, as 1) the thickness of the laquer is much more consequent compared to the thickness of the material (0.5 mm of laquer on a table of 2.2 mm or on a body of 40 mm don't have the same impact...), 2) the acoustic tone is directly made from the vibration of the body going through the air around the guitar and so there can be damping with laquer.
But on an electric...
He could have used the fact that PU are higly chemical and dangerous for healt and environnement, and that's why I don't use it also. But the question about tone... I'd rather believe in raining donuts before it.

About glue... If glue doesn't conduct well the vibration, and combining it to the fact that epoxy needs a thicker joint, would it make sense to you?
The problem is that between to guitars that seem to be similar, there's 100 parameters that differ. And people are putting justification on just 2/3 of them, and that's all.
Even in the same lumber of wood, there's huge difference, so how can we possibly asserts such things?

But anyway, that doesn't take anything about this project and all, don't worry. It's just that it needs to be higly moderate when people talking about the influence of something else that pu/strings/hardware/carefullness of building.

So lets go back to the same old conclusion. I DON'T CARE what his opinion is. I like the way his guitars sound, and as long as he can get mine to sound like that, thats it!

There are other luthiers who also claim that epoxy sounds better. Patrick Hufschmied for example, was using gorilla and changed to epoxy, claiming it sounds better and holds better. But again, thats his opinion that he gained for whatever reason. There is no harm in that, as long as the result is good.

I'm really begining to regret I even started this epoxy nitro discussion

Nah, you guys are cool. I like this comunity, and I like that you are being critical. But whats absolutely true is that there are so many variables in guitarmaking that its impossible to know what exactly caused what.

BUUUUT, i put my money on this Poly to Nitro refinish test That should be accurate enough!

EDIT: in case you are wondering if the Poly recording vs Nitro recording will be accurate due to mic positions and what not.. FEAR NOT! I'll use my Kemper, so I can assure you that the setup will be 100% same

 

[Suitable]

What i don't understand is how epoxy could stand up to neck flex (eg putting different string gauges on and having to adjust the truss rod...)? When set its pretty brittle. Not having a go, just curious.

Very nice looking axe though!

 

[crazygtr]

About the influence of the laquer, just think of it that way: the sound you hear on your amp goes from where? Does the vibration of the body HAVE to leave and travel through the air from the guitar body to your hear like it is for a speaker?
Obviously not. Breathing of wood and all this stupid thing is (and even not so much) true for acoustic, as 1) the thickness of the laquer is much more consequent compared to the thickness of the material (0.5 mm of laquer on a table of 2.2 mm or on a body of 40 mm don't have the same impact...), 2) the acoustic tone is directly made from the vibration of the body going through the air around the guitar and so there can be damping with laquer.
But on an electric...
He could have used the fact that PU are higly chemical and dangerous for healt and environnement, and that's why I don't use it also. But the question about tone... I'd rather believe in raining donuts before it.

About glue... If glue doesn't conduct well the vibration, and combining it to the fact that epoxy needs a thicker joint, would it make sense to you?
The problem is that between to guitars that seem to be similar, there's 100 parameters that differ. And people are putting justification on just 2/3 of them, and that's all.
Even in the same lumber of wood, there's huge difference, so how can we possibly asserts such things?

But anyway, that doesn't take anything about this project and all, don't worry. It's just that it needs to be higly moderate when people talking about the influence of something else that pu/strings/hardware/carefullness of building.

I respectfuly disagree, I've been playing/building guitars for the past 20 years and beleive me, there is a difference in the tonal quality of a lacquered instrument and a oiled/raw wood one. As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste. IMHO the less finish the better.

 

[Necromagnon]

Nah, you guys are cool. I like this comunity, and I like that you are being critical. But whats absolutely true is that there are so many variables in guitarmaking that its impossible to know what exactly caused what.

Yep, that's it. There's nothing more to say.

I respectfuly disagree, I've been playing/building guitars for the past 20 years and beleive me, there is a difference in the tonal quality of a lacquered instrument and a oiled/raw wood one. As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste. IMHO the less finish the better.

There might be one, because every parameter can change everything. In the basic, I totally agree. But what I disagree is on the fact that there was only the laquer that were different. Thus putting the tonal difference all on this parameter make me sceptical.
But after that, I'm more a mechanician/theoritician than a player/builder, so this is the pragmatism needed in reasearch that speaks here.


PS: crazygtr, you get a good point also, with this: "As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste". That's also big part of the problem of "how sound a wood/laquer/glue/blabla".

 

[crazygtr]

Yep, that's it. There's nothing more to say.

There might be one, because every parameter can change everything. In the basic, I totally agree. But what I disagree is on the fact that there was only the laquer that were different. Thus putting the tonal difference all on this parameter make me sceptical.
But after that, I'm more a mechanician/theoritician than a player/builder, so this is the pragmatism needed in reasearch that speaks here.


PS: crazygtr, you get a good point also, with this: "As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste". That's also big part of the problem of "how sound a wood/laquer/glue/blabla".

I totally get you. There's been so much ga-ga about certain details of construction that man, it gets boring. This glue, the other, did you cut your wood on a new moon? etc. It's just marketing, but on the other hand some of it is true.

 

[FruitCakeRonin]

Awesome, ive always wanted to know if a onepiece guitar was possible.

 

[AwDeOh]

Awesome, ive always wanted to know if a onepiece guitar was possible.

Speaking of Fruit Cakes, it'll only be a matter of time before one of the resident nutcase builders here makes a one piece guitar out of concrete or steel or something.

RE: Tone.. it's Fender VS Gibson, Mesa VS Marshall. As I've said before, I heard a sample clip of a guitar made out of MDF which shat a bucket of tone. I think of guitar construction and wood grain a little bit like the human arm, with all its muscles, nerves, bone, skin, fat. Theoretically every human arm is the same, in principle. But the devil is in the details. Micheal Jordan's arm was amazing on a basketball court, average on the baseball plate, and crappy behind the Wizards' manager desk.

 

[Necromagnon]

It was brazilian mdf, na?

 

[walshy0420]

Haha, I love that Jordan analogy above!

I'm going to be glued to this thread as I'm always eager to see how one piece builds turn out. Ridiculous pun there, I know!

I was of the understanding that you can run into potential warping issues with a one piece build but I'm sure this guy knows what he's doing. The progress so far is incredible. Just hope you get that fretboard issue sorted out. Hoping it isn't an issue for you in the long run.

I haven't logged in here for a long time but now I've got my first build underway (an RG/Jem hybrid) I'll be checking in more often. This thread in particular is total guitar porn.

Looking forward to seeing this beast when finished

 

[axxessdenied]

I noticed the nut is installed kinda of sloppy as well:

I have beside me one of the new 25th anniversary RG's that I paid $500 for. I can tell you the neck on this looks much better than these pics. I would be kind of questioning why there is such a large visible glue line and the nut slut was cut so rough.

 

[wintersun]

I noticed the nut is installed kinda of sloppy as well:

I have beside me one of the new 25th anniversary RG's that I paid $500 for. I can tell you the neck on this looks much better than these pics. I would be kind of questioning why there is such a large visible glue line and the nut slut was cut so rough.

Because it's not done here. He sanded the neck more since the last pictures were taken. That might also be the answer to that other line discussed.

 

[Le Jeff]

I don't mean to be a dink or anything but I suggest you start trying to get a refund. Routeing a nut slot and gluing a fretboard on aren't rocket surgery but this guy fucked both up and then proudly sent you pictures of his work. Plus, just because the guitar ends up 'looking pretty' doesn't mean you're not going to know that the fretboard was glued on with the wrong stuff and improperly.

 

[wintersun]

I don't mean to be a dink or anything but I suggest you start trying to get a refund. Routeing a nut slot and gluing a fretboard on aren't rocket surgery but this guy fucked both up and then proudly sent you pictures of his work. Plus, just because the guitar ends up 'looking pretty' doesn't mean you're not going to know that the fretboard was glued on with the wrong stuff and improperly.

Sure