New Dem Add-Funny but sad
- Thread starter Dive-Baum
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Vince
Contributor
I'm not a big fan of the democratic party, but they'd have to really fuck up IMO to not win this november & in 2008.
The Dark Wolf
Contributor
Terrific commercial! I appreciate the irony.
Dive-Baum
Bite Me Fan Boy!!
Yeah with a pic of Bush talking to Comic Book Guy
desertdweller said:
You know, me either. i'm a friggin republican but after the last few years, i'm seriously considering changing that. I've realized that every conservative republican pundit has started to piss me off.
The Dark Wolf
Contributor
Same boat as me, Ken. I was a republican in '00. After the Iraq war started, I was like, WTF? These guys are more like Nazis than what I know to be Republicanism! The whole WMD thing just drove me nuts. We all knew there was nothing. It made me so furious, along with the literally thousands of other Bushco blunders, I just got fed up.Metal Ken said:
So, I renounced Chrsitianity, any political party (I'd say I'm like a mix of Green/Old-school Republican/libertarian, but I'm really just independant, and most of my support is for the democrats any more) and moved on. Those mugs have gotten whacky!
The Dark Wolf said:
Wow, thats scary dude lol. My renouniation of christianity had nothing to do with politics. It had to do with a few odd experiences, and a heavy interest in the occult. And the innumeral contradictions of the bible and all it stands for. I dont think you have as much a malevolent vitrolic attitude towards it as i do though.. lol
The political thing came after. at first i figured bush was a better choice than kerry. THen after all this shit thats been happening since Iraq invasion, i was just "I fucking wish i could fucking recanted my vote". The thing that scares me is that modern republicans are basically texas christian types now, its all about religion, Anti-Abortion Anti-Gay, Anti-bullshit that doesnt matter in the context of running the country and taking away our freedoms. So the sooner we get someone the fucking completely opposite in there, the better.
The Dark Wolf
Contributor
Politics had much to do with it, the religious right being what it is today, along with complete dissatisfaction with the modern church. The ironic, absolutely crazy thing is, Jesus was the one who basically inspired me to renounce Christianity. 
My understanding of Jesus from the bible ain't even close to the nonsense they preach today. 
I don't have traditional Christian beliefs (Jesus as savior, yada yada), and my appreciation for athiests and agnostics is pretty immense anymore, but I still believe in God (of sorts), and I still understand Him/Her/It much through Jesus' teachings. Y'know, the church uses him as their poster boy, but in his day, he was pretty anti-religion, too. The story of him marching into the temple, kicking ass (literally), and raising hell is pretty evocative of his sentiments, I think! (Imagine someone walking into a church today and doing that kinda shit. Wowsers!)
My understanding of Jesus from the bible ain't even close to the nonsense they preach today. I don't have traditional Christian beliefs (Jesus as savior, yada yada), and my appreciation for athiests and agnostics is pretty immense anymore, but I still believe in God (of sorts), and I still understand Him/Her/It much through Jesus' teachings. Y'know, the church uses him as their poster boy, but in his day, he was pretty anti-religion, too. The story of him marching into the temple, kicking ass (literally), and raising hell is pretty evocative of his sentiments, I think!
(Imagine someone walking into a church today and doing that kinda shit. Wowsers!)
Well, Yeah, all the republican/Organized christianity tie in thing is infuriating.. Basically, if you check out NoBeliefs.com, they have some very strong arguments using STRICTLY the bible. Basically, if you look at all the contradictions on just jesus, half the time he was "Love everyone" then the other half the time, he was pretty much an ass. lol. Either jesus was extremely hereticial or extremely bi-polar, lol. Another thing with christianity, i dunno about you, but the idea of a personal god scares the everloving fuck out of me. That kind shit is just freaky. after christianity, i do believe in higher powers. I am firm in this belief, but the christian god doesnt exist to me.
The Dark Wolf
Contributor
How about the shit was written 2,000 years ago and changed/revised/what-the-fuck ever a million times, and however he really was has probably been so bastardized as to be crazy anymore?Metal Ken said:
But still, just going on what the Bible says Jesus said and did, that's generally really cool. Now, what Paul and the Disciples say is another fucking thing. But Jesus, he's like Gandhi. Sorta my personal hero... power to the people, that sorta shit. Like an old-school Bob Marley.
There we go! That's my religion right there. Jesus, Gandhi, and Bob Marley.
Just my take on it, but that's the point. Don't need some idiot telling me how it MUST be, based on their fucked up dogma and interpretation. It's ALL interpretation. Every single goddamn bit of it, from the devoutest belief to the most hard nosed atheism.
Vince
Contributor
IMO, Constantine made Christianity up to give the Romans a national religion. He made the story so that Jesus was killed by the jews to give the Romans a sense of nationalism against Israel. I don't have any links to back up my claim, this came out of logical thought from a few semesters of humanities & ancient history classes. Constantine united & rebuilt Rome, and I firmly believe he used religion as power over his people. It was absolutely brilliant of him if that's the case.
To be honest, I'm about 90% convinced that's the truth. It's like the common phrase "follow the money". Who stood to profit from a new religion, and who was it aimed at destroying? Rational questions usually find rational answers.
I do not believe the biblical Jesus ever existed. That says a lot coming from someone who was raised Catholic since birth & was a confirmed Catholic. Heck, I used to be a choir director / music minister at several Catholic churces here in the valley.
I also think the teachings of Jesus, if actually followed as they are in the bible, completely contradict the current christian church's stance on a lot of issues. Jesus was inclusive, not exclusive. He did not condemn, he understood & loved. He was not judgmental. He hung out with tax collectors, harlots, heathens, sinners, & the salt of the earth. He put people above property. He was basically a modern day hippie liberal. IMO, the current state of Christian religion in regards to politics is the exact opposite of this approach. Modern christianity, especially what you see in the press, is very condemning, very judgemental, & extremely hypocritical.
As far as political leaning, I'm from Arizona, & I'm pretty much an old-fashioned Barry Goldwater republican. Small government, valuable but consistent social programs, low taxes, free but watched-like-a-hawk market. In today's political climate, I believe this makes me a liberal. It's fucking scary that that's the case IMO.
I think in the current system, it doesn't matter which side wins, we lose. 2 reasons... 1) revenue. The govenment is so big, it's out of control. World War II really fucked over the long-term viability of this government. FDR knew this, Truman knew this, even Eisenhower & Kennedy knew this and IMO Kennedy was killed for trying to reverse the tide. There's so much money coming into the federal government through taxes it's silly. The military industrial complex was paid out so much money for WWII for tanks, planes, R&D, etc. that they never even got time to develop & never delivered (watch "The Aviator" it's insane how much money Howard Hughes made for planes he never delivered), and it totally whetted their appetite. Since WWII, we've basically been in a war or conflict for about every year since in one form or another, with an absolutely huge mess of money going to defense department contracts & military R&D every year. They've gone past lobbyists too, now we even see former CEOs of defense department contractors running for office to work inside the government for the interests of their former company (Cheney / Haliburton immediately comes to mind). I firmly believe this section of our country is out of control & will be our downfall.
2) The two-party system basically perpetuates failure. Kerry or Bush? That's what we have to choose from? Holy crap, it's like poking yourself in the eye or sticking a hot poker up your ass. How the fuck did we get stuck with a 2-party system? Where's the labor party? Where's the rights party? Where's a 5 or 6 party system like they have in other civilized nations? It's rediculous that we only have two choices in most elections, a run-away corrupt republican or a run-away corrupt democrat. It's silly. Heck, I'm a fan of Joe Biden for president in '08, and even I'm scared about his connection to the banking system & companies like MBNA & Greenwood Trust. He did vote FOR the bankruptcy bill & he is a senator from Delaware, the hub of the US banking system & home to most of the nation's banks. Because of the 2 party system, I don't think we actually have a choice & I believe our perceived 'choice' and 'freedom' is an illusion. A 2 party system is one step below tyranny IMO.
Anyway, that's my late night rant for the day. I hope my thoughts came out coherent.
To be honest, I'm about 90% convinced that's the truth. It's like the common phrase "follow the money". Who stood to profit from a new religion, and who was it aimed at destroying? Rational questions usually find rational answers.
I do not believe the biblical Jesus ever existed. That says a lot coming from someone who was raised Catholic since birth & was a confirmed Catholic. Heck, I used to be a choir director / music minister at several Catholic churces here in the valley.
I also think the teachings of Jesus, if actually followed as they are in the bible, completely contradict the current christian church's stance on a lot of issues. Jesus was inclusive, not exclusive. He did not condemn, he understood & loved. He was not judgmental. He hung out with tax collectors, harlots, heathens, sinners, & the salt of the earth. He put people above property. He was basically a modern day hippie liberal. IMO, the current state of Christian religion in regards to politics is the exact opposite of this approach. Modern christianity, especially what you see in the press, is very condemning, very judgemental, & extremely hypocritical.
As far as political leaning, I'm from Arizona, & I'm pretty much an old-fashioned Barry Goldwater republican. Small government, valuable but consistent social programs, low taxes, free but watched-like-a-hawk market. In today's political climate, I believe this makes me a liberal. It's fucking scary that that's the case IMO.
I think in the current system, it doesn't matter which side wins, we lose. 2 reasons... 1) revenue. The govenment is so big, it's out of control. World War II really fucked over the long-term viability of this government. FDR knew this, Truman knew this, even Eisenhower & Kennedy knew this and IMO Kennedy was killed for trying to reverse the tide. There's so much money coming into the federal government through taxes it's silly. The military industrial complex was paid out so much money for WWII for tanks, planes, R&D, etc. that they never even got time to develop & never delivered (watch "The Aviator" it's insane how much money Howard Hughes made for planes he never delivered), and it totally whetted their appetite. Since WWII, we've basically been in a war or conflict for about every year since in one form or another, with an absolutely huge mess of money going to defense department contracts & military R&D every year. They've gone past lobbyists too, now we even see former CEOs of defense department contractors running for office to work inside the government for the interests of their former company (Cheney / Haliburton immediately comes to mind). I firmly believe this section of our country is out of control & will be our downfall.
2) The two-party system basically perpetuates failure. Kerry or Bush? That's what we have to choose from? Holy crap, it's like poking yourself in the eye or sticking a hot poker up your ass. How the fuck did we get stuck with a 2-party system? Where's the labor party? Where's the rights party? Where's a 5 or 6 party system like they have in other civilized nations? It's rediculous that we only have two choices in most elections, a run-away corrupt republican or a run-away corrupt democrat. It's silly. Heck, I'm a fan of Joe Biden for president in '08, and even I'm scared about his connection to the banking system & companies like MBNA & Greenwood Trust. He did vote FOR the bankruptcy bill & he is a senator from Delaware, the hub of the US banking system & home to most of the nation's banks. Because of the 2 party system, I don't think we actually have a choice & I believe our perceived 'choice' and 'freedom' is an illusion. A 2 party system is one step below tyranny IMO.
Anyway, that's my late night rant for the day. I hope my thoughts came out coherent.
desertdweller said:
You know, thats not too entirely far fetched. It makes a lot of sense.. WAsnt it it true that constantine also wasnt a believer in said religion?
Edit: I just recalled. the Nero thing with the mudering of the christians. They still hold that kind of thing up today to show how persecuted christians are by the world..
Same. There's NO historical evidence supporting him. All the historical documents say nothing of him. the Roman Governer Pilate's Documents never said anything of it, if i recall either.desertdweller said:
Half the time... lol.desertdweller said:
desertdweller said:
Lets not forget the changes that were mde to get the coutnry out oft he depression. thats where the national debt came from. I dunno, but one of the things i never understood from any civics class or government discussion, how can they say our government has a surplus of money when we have trillions up trillions dolloar national debt?
desertdweller said:
Yeah, it really makes you wonder. "ALL these people in the coutnry, and these are the best two guys we have for the job? Thats just fucking sad".
Well, thats my point. between the gospels and even between verse inside the gospels, they cant keep the story straight. I cant possibly believe in that.The Dark Wolf said:How about the shit was written 2,000 years ago and changed/revised/what-the-fuck ever a million times, and however he really was has probably been so bastardized as to be crazy anymore?
But still, just going on what the Bible says Jesus said and did, that's generally really cool. Now, what Paul and the Disciples say is another fucking thing. But Jesus, he's like Gandhi. Sorta my personal hero... power to the people, that sorta shit. Like an old-school Bob Marley.
There we go! That's my religion right there. Jesus, Gandhi, and Bob Marley.
Just my take on it, but that's the point. Don't need some idiot telling me how it MUST be, based on their fucked up dogma and interpretation. It's ALL interpretation. Every single goddamn bit of it, from the devoutest belief to the most hard nosed atheism.
Assuming jesus was potaryed by just the 'good thigns', he'd be a pretty cool dude. You cant go wrong with Idolizing Gandhi and Bob Marley though. Especially Gandhi. THat dude was a badass.
Drew
Forum MVP
desertdweller said:
I wouldn't believe this at a literal level, but figuratively...
If I recall correctly, there's enough evidence of the Christian religion and specifically of persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire to suggest that Christianity predates Constantine. However, would I agree with a statement that Constantine saw this small, fledgling, persecuted religion and saw the potential for political gain by adopting it as an official Roman religion? Sure I would.
On the surface, Christianity is far too removed from Grecoroman religions and has far too much in common with too many other pagan religions for me to buy it was a creation of Constantine, unless the guy spent a serious amount of time doing research. The only proper death/rebirth myth I can think of in Roman mythology would have to be Persephone marrying Hades and spending half the year in the underworld and half with her mother, and even then she's never truely dead, much less murdered. Contrast that against the story of Jesus, and compare it to, say, the Egyptian Orisis myth where he was murdered, chopped into peices, and his body scattered to the rushes before Isis, I believe, bound him up and brought him back to life, saving the egyptians and allowing the Nile to flow again, more or less. The later is a much closer match than the former, although they clearly both have similarities. Even greater similarities can be found, ironically, with many celtic/druidic mythology, particularly the fisher king stories (for kicks, compare the Arthuric tale to that of Jesus - they certainly seem to come from a common source). Or, even, compare the story and teachings of Mohommad to that of Jesus. A lot of superficial differences, a lot of similarities of message.
I have NO idea of the chronology here, but if we treat Christianity of a reworking of older religions mingled with the possibility of a historical Jesus as a mortal prophet who taught peace and love, then it's certainly believable that Christianity could have been the product of captives brought back as slaves to Rome from the Celtic Isles and the Middle East, that Constantine saw the potential political value of and instituted as a state religion. This is certainly in keeping with the analysis of Christianity as a "slave morality" in "The Geneology of Morals," with its emphasis not of physical strength but rather weakness, with it's strong "turn the other cheek, help those less powerful than yourself" message, that he argues was essentially a bit to make their weaknesses their virtues...
Interesting, Vince. I think historical criticisms of religion are fascinating, and your idea here certainly has merit.
Drew
Forum MVP
Interesting. I didn't even know the Druidic Celtic god was Hesus, which ironically enough is the spanish pronunciation of Jesus.
Bonus points for anyone who can explain THAT weird liguistic coincidence, lol. It's right up there with Douglas Adams' "gin and tonic" bit.
Bonus points for anyone who can explain THAT weird liguistic coincidence, lol. It's right up there with Douglas Adams' "gin and tonic" bit.
