Old 90's "Custom Guitars" ESPs

[narad]

Idk it seems like you guys are getting butt hurt because you think I'm trying to say that the old Esps are the same quality as what Esp original series/custom shop makes now. Which is an odd thing to think seeing as the ad you just posted says they built all their guitars from every price point to the same standard. I don't know what they are doing right now. The most recent Esps I've played are from 2008 and 2012. I can't say if the quality is still the same. Back then it was. A 90s MII Custom with the Custom Guitars sticker on the back was just as well built and playable as the custom KH4 and Alexi Arrowhead I played. Maybe because they were all made in the Kiss shop?

Nah, I just think it's dumb to retroactively say something is "custom shop" or "custom shop quality" when the (ESP, obviously) custom shops didn't exist and you have no knowledge of what the build process was like then, now, or then vs. now. Simple stuff really. The more someone starts talking about their opinion like it is setting historical fact, the more it just obfuscates the already confusing history of ESP production over the past 40 years, and the more people walk away with totally wrong understanding of their instrument (or worse, promote it when they sell it).

 

[Nightside]

Nah, I just think it's dumb to retroactively say something is "custom shop" or "custom shop quality" when the (ESP, obviously) custom shops didn't exist and you have no knowledge of what the build process was like then, now, or then vs. now. Simple stuff really. The more someone starts talking about their opinion like it is setting historical fact, the more it just obfuscates the already confusing history of ESP production over the past 40 years, and the more people walk away with totally wrong understanding of their instrument (or worse, promote it when they sell it).

Well I guess it's a good thing I wasn't saying they're all custom shops.

Just check the link above and lmk why Esp agrees with me instead of you. So far you're the only one trying to pass off your incorrect opinions as historical fact. I've provided you a link to the fact I've been arguing the whole time. @mehegama posted a fact that agrees with the argument I've been making the whole time. Esp branded guitars were all made the same way to the same standard before the branching off to different tiers. My posted fact proves that the original 80s and 90s Esp Japanese models are what became the original series and have in fact been retroactively named original series by Esp themselves.

Do you have the same amount of difficulty grasping the concept that the 80s and 90s Ibanez standard series such as RG570, RG550 and so on are what became the Prestige tier models now? It's literally the same concept. Are Prestige models made the same now as they were then? Of course not. Are they the same build quality? It depends on which ones you get to compare. The clues are in the model names. The RG570 split into the RG1570, RG2570, and RG3570. It can be slightly more difficult to decipher with Esp as the M-II Deluxe became the M-II Deluxe and the M-II Custom became the M-II Custom...

I think it's dumb to try and say there was no custom shop until (when exactly are you saying the custom shop came into existence?). How did they make custom orders then? There is still a photo somewhere online if the custom order form for what would become the base for the KH2.


Keep arguing all you like but until you show some sort of concrete proof or evidence, your incorrect opinion is just an opinion.

 

[narad]

Well I guess it's a good thing I wasn't saying they're all custom shops.

Just check the link above and lmk why Esp agrees with me instead of you. So far you're the only one trying to pass off your incorrect opinions as historical fact. I've provided you a link to the fact I've been arguing the whole time. @mehegama posted a fact that agrees with the argument I've been making the whole time. Esp branded guitars were all made the same way to the same standard before the branching off to different tiers. My posted fact proves that the original 80s and 90s Esp Japanese models are what became the original series and have in fact been retroactively named original series by Esp themselves.

Do you have the same amount of difficulty grasping the concept that the 80s and 90s Ibanez standard series such as RG570, RG550 and so on are what became the Prestige tier models now? It's literally the same concept. Are Prestige models made the same now as they were then? Of course not. Are they the same build quality? It depends on which ones you get to compare. The clues are in the model names. The RG570 split into the RG1570, RG2570, and RG3570. It can be slightly more difficult to decipher with Esp as the M-II Deluxe became the M-II Deluxe and the M-II Custom became the M-II Custom...

I think it's dumb to try and say there was no custom shop until (when exactly are you saying the custom shop came into existence?). How did they make custom orders then? There is still a photo somewhere online if the custom order form for what would become the base for the KH2.
View attachment 145908

Keep arguing all you like but until you show some sort of concrete proof or evidence, your incorrect opinion is just an opinion.

Of course you could custom order. It's separate from what expectation in quality there is. The original Japanese makes this clearer as there is a distinction between order made, which is what it sounds like, and custom shop, which ESP uses as the place of manufacture (since the logo accompanies some guitars that are not custom orders, for instance custom shop signature guitars).

If you want to call older pre-custom shop guitars custom shop, as belonging to the custom shop tier, you're an idiot. If you don't, then we don't have to argue about it.

If you want some food for thought, consider how many guitars ESP was producing per year prior to the official custom shops. Then consider how many original series and custom shop guitars they currently produce per year with a far bigger operation. Or look at what these guitars cost in 1988 as a measure of average income in Japan, vs. now.

 

[Nightside]

Of course you could custom order. It's separate from what expectation in quality there is. The original Japanese makes this clearer as there is a distinction between order made, which is what it sounds like, and custom shop, which ESP uses as the place of manufacture (since the logo accompanies some guitars that are not custom orders, for instance custom shop signature guitars).

If you want to call older pre-custom shop guitars custom shop, as belonging to the custom shop tier, you're an idiot. If you don't, then we don't have to argue about it.

If you want some food for thought, consider how many guitars ESP was producing per year prior to the official custom shops. Then consider how many original series and custom shop guitars they currently produce per year with a far bigger operation. Or look at what these guitars cost in 1988 as a measure of average income in Japan, vs. now.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

That before the official custom shop (which you still don't give any date to when this started) all the original guitars were of a lower quality and this is why so many big artists from the 80s and 90s were drawn to them?

Are you trying to say that before the official custom shop all the Esp branded guitars were made equally?

Do you have any proof that the old original series were made to a lesser quality? Or is it just your opinion?

I've owned standard series, original series, and custom shop guitars from the 90s to the 2010s and while the 90s guitars did have issues stemming from being old guitars, the workmanship and how they were put together and finished were all the same barring a standard series MII NTB. The demarcation line where the satin natural neck finish met the gloss black body finish had a ridge you could feel while the custom shop Alexi and KH4 were a completely smooth transition.

Like I keep saying, if you have some kind of real proof or evidence, I'd really love to see it. As far as I know, a company doesn't attract big name artists by making lower quality instruments.

 

[narad]

So what exactly are you trying to say?

That before the official custom shop (which you still don't give any date to when this started) all the original guitars were of a lower quality and this is why so many big artists from the 80s and 90s were drawn to them?

What are you talking about? I own more ESP guitars of that era than pretty much anyone, and it includes some of my favorite guitars period. Not something I'd do if I thought they were bad or low quality. But there were definitely some quality fluctuations in the 80s as they were making a lot of changes. I absolutely don't think they were receiving the same time and attention that they do now or even earlier in the custom shop era. That is speculation on my part, and not something I'm trying to argue as fact (which is where we differ -- I think just a bunch of speculation is not helping anything but make the shitshow of misinformation on the ESP FB groups even more pervasive).

But until I hear otherwise, I trust that the company, when they decide to establish different production methods to the point of rebranding the whole line, to the point of creating whole new shops with specialized duties within the custom shop process, to not to say, nah nah nah, these are actually the same because.... it's what I want to hear?

 

[Nightside]

What are you talking about? I own more ESP guitars of that era than pretty much anyone, and it includes some of my favorite guitars period. Not something I'd do if I thought they were bad or low quality. But there were definitely some quality fluctuations in the 80s as they were making a lot of changes. I absolutely don't think they were receiving the same time and attention that they do now or even earlier in the custom shop era. That is speculation on my part, and not something I'm trying to argue as fact (which is where we differ -- I think just a bunch of speculation is not helping anything but make the shitshow of misinformation on the ESP FB groups even more pervasive).

But until I hear otherwise, I trust that the company, when they decide to establish different production methods to the point of rebranding the whole line, to the point of creating whole new shops with specialized duties within the custom shop process, to not to say, nah nah nah, these are actually the same because.... it's what I want to hear?

Read the 1984 ad mehagama posted. They were already advertising having different shops specializing in different tasks. And they made it a point to say all their guitars from all prices were built to the same quality. We already know there were different shops building bolt-ons and neck through versions of the same models. Even within those there were variations. I've had M-II bodies with a flat forearm contour and with a curved forearm contour like an RG. I even asked about tremolo studs on the KH2 vintage on the Esp website when comments were still allowed because some photos showed flat head wood screw studs and some showed hex head studs in bushings all on the same model.

But if you're trying to argue that because they charge exorbitant prices now for an original series that somehow they're higher quality than one from the 90s, that is where I disagree. Esp are trying to run as far away from that image of Japanese knockoffs of American guitars on which they built their "the only real alternative" reputation as they can. Now they want to be seen as bespoke boutique Arabian prince driving a Rolls Royce monster truck level of prestige and have been jacking up prices steadily while cutting corners on finishing touches like dying ebony fretboards jet black or polishing the fretboards to a smooth high sheen. The attention to details in the basic build quality is what impressed me to begin with 26 years ago. I removed the locking nut from my 95 MII Deluxe and saw that the shelf was perfect as well as the paint edges where the gloss black headstock face and natural satin back and sides met the bare wood around the nut shelf. There was even the tiniest radius around the edge where someone uniformly rounded over sharp corners that most people would never look at. The same thing when I took off the tuners and truss rod cover. Which is why I was so unimpressed with the BRJ "custom shop handmade one of a kind" Jekyll 627 that I paid so much more for.

 

[mehegama]

I see they mention tuning machines but I'm pretty sure they have been using Gotoh tuners since forever. Has Esp ever made their own tuners? I'm still looking for the part that is supposed to refute what I'm saying. So far all that page says is that every Esp from every price point is made exactly the same way which is exactly what I'm saying. Then I'm saying that is what became the original series when the assembly line standard series was created. Even the standard series didn't have it's own factory for a long time and people who worked on original series or customs could have touched a standard at some point as well. Even the standard series which was supposed to be standard set specs were able to have slight customizations like color, hardware, and pickup changes. Then there were the dealer special run custom standard series popularised by B music before the whole scheme ended with the rebranding.

Idk it seems like you guys are getting butt hurt because you think I'm trying to say that the old Esps are the same quality as what Esp original series/custom shop makes now. Which is an odd thing to think seeing as the ad you just posted says they built all their guitars from every price point to the same standard. I don't know what they are doing right now. The most recent Esps I've played are from 2008 and 2012. I can't say if the quality is still the same. Back then it was. A 90s MII Custom with the Custom Guitars sticker on the back was just as well built and playable as the custom KH4 and Alexi Arrowhead I played. Maybe because they were all made in the Kiss shop?

butt heart? Are you for real? Who gives an ef what a company was doing 40 years ago and most importantly what a rando in the internet thinks about it?
I will say it for the last time.The extract shows that they had production lines to mass produce the equivalent of SS and some custom runs. The original series of today are not production models. They are custom shop guitars with prespecified specs that they do in small numbers every year. Thus saying that the old esps are of the same quality as today’s original is totally unsubstantiated and i don’t know how you came up with that idea.

 

[Nightside]

butt heart? Are you for real? Who gives an ef what a company was doing 40 years ago and most importantly what a rando in the internet thinks about it?
I will say it for the last time.The extract shows that they had production lines to mass produce the equivalent of SS and some custom runs. The original series of today are not production models. They are custom shop guitars with prespecified specs that they do in small numbers every year. Thus saying that the old esps are of the same quality as today’s original is totally unsubstantiated and i don’t know how you came up with that idea.

I mean, that's just what it looks like. I state a fact that the old 90s Japanese Esps OP asked about are the OG original series and you two start whining about how dare I compare the incomparable quality of today's original series with the old original series because they're not the same. Like they were building inferior guitars for decades until they decided to build less of them and sell them for a lot more. Tell me what year exactly did it stop being the same so I know which ones are better and which shitty ones to avoid. I already posted the website link that literally shows the 90s MII Deluxe and Custom in the original series discontinued models section so you guys can keep claiming whatever you want but until you've got something to back it up it's only an incorrect opinion.

 

[narad]

I mean, that's just what it looks like. I state a fact that the old 90s Japanese Esps OP asked about are the OG original series and you two start whining about how dare I compare the incomparable quality of today's original series with the old original series because they're not the same. Like they were building inferior guitars for decades until they decided to build less of them and sell them for a lot more. Tell me what year exactly did it stop being the same so I know which ones are better and which shitty ones to avoid. I already posted the website link that literally shows the 90s MII Deluxe and Custom in the original series discontinued models section so you guys can keep claiming whatever you want but until you've got something to back it up it's only an incorrect opinion.

There's no point setting up the debate in such a falsely exaggerated way to pretend some are shitty and some are better and there's some exact point in time where everything changed. OP asked how his non-Kiso would compare to a Kiso, and is right in thinking that these aren't identical things.

 

[Nightside]

There's no point setting up the debate in such a falsely exaggerated way to pretend some are shitty and some are better and there's some exact point in time where everything changed. OP asked how his non-Kiso would compare to a Kiso, and is right in thinking that these aren't identical things.

There's no point because there is no way to back up your claims.

OP asked what the deal is with the guitars bearing the Esp Custom Guitars in the circle decal on the back of the headstock. I told him those were put on there to designate a guitar made for export and that those are what went on to become the original series which I have proven. You two are the ones who went on a pre-CBS Fender/pre-FMIC Jackson blues dad rampage about how you perceive the quality of those to be inferior except unlike blues dads and Jackson fanboys, you can't even say when this change occurred. I repeatedly ask for some concrete proof or evidence and all you can give is your opinions and feelings. Like are you trying to justify recent price hikes? Inflate the value of your own more recent guitars? Keep the used prices of old Esps low?

How are the new original series "quality" higher quality than an old one's "quality". You keep going on and on about "quality". Be specific. What qualities are we talking about here? Are you going to show me pictures of 80s and 90s original series with crooked neck pockets or misaligned hardware? Maybe a few 23 fret MIIs made it past their apparently more lax QC? Were they sending out guitars with razor sharp fret sprout? Cracked ebony fretboards? At least pre-CBS snobs can point to the looser neck pockets, shallower body contours, and molded zinc alloy trem unit. Show me some pictures of this inferior quality. I can definitely show you pictures of new original series guitars that skipped the angled edges on the blade headstock and with undyed and unpolished fretboards which is a few steps backward in "quality" imho but I don't go around stating it as fact or say the new original series are a lower quality.

I've owned and played Japanese Esps from the Kiso and Sado shops and one from the technical house. The "quality" was there on all of them. Some felt and sounded better or worse but that's the nature of wooden instruments with different specs. The frets on the technical house RR snakeskin were like tiny vintage Fender sized that I did not care for. But they were all technically perfect. Zero flaws in workmanship and above and beyond my expectations which set the bar very high and left me very disappointed with other more expensive "high end" guitars that people like you on the internet hyped up to be "higher quality".

 

[mehegama]

I told him those were put on there to designate a guitar made for export and that those are what went on to become the original series which I have proven.

Some times it is really hard but i ll try again. First of all how have you proved anything. I personally own a lot of "lawsuite" era Horizons, Exhibition models, Original series ordered by myself and a few SS before the E-II thing, so I have a hands on idea on these guitars.
Second, when, at least me, refer to custom shops, i mean a workshop where most stuff are made by hand, with very big attention to detail and big customization. I don't care where the shop is or if they used to focus on neck thrus or bolt ons etc. These are known stuff.

So on the custom guitars logo, check this horizon form 1998:


This is the production ash model in purple as you see it in the 1998 catalogue, where they are called standard models:


So this thing is mass produced in the factory and IS NOT the same as the current original series Horizon CTM, that it is built in the custom shop by hand.


So please do not perpetuate this type of info that somehow the old ESPs are equivalent to the current original series. Nobody says that they were of bad quality, they are simply not comparable on an one to one basis. So honestly I do not understand what you claim to have proven really.

 

[Nightside]

Some times it is really hard but i ll try again. First of all how have you proved anything. I personally own a lot of "lawsuite" era Horizons, Exhibition models, Original series ordered by myself and a few SS before the E-II thing, so I have a hands on idea on these guitars.
Second, when, at least me, refer to custom shops, i mean a workshop where most stuff are made by hand, with very big attention to detail and big customization. I don't care where the shop is or if they used to focus on neck thrus or bolt ons etc. These are known stuff.

So on the custom guitars logo, check this horizon form 1998:
View attachment 145927View attachment 145928

This is the production ash model in purple as you see it in the 1998 catalogue, where they are called standard models:
View attachment 145929

So this thing is mass produced in the factory and IS NOT the same as the current original series Horizon CTM, that it is built in the custom shop by hand.
View attachment 145930

So please do not perpetuate this type of info that somehow the old ESPs are equivalent to the current original series. Nobody says that they were of bad quality, they are simply not comparable on an one to one basis. So honestly I do not understand what you claim to have proven really.

I know! Why don't we just put this debate to rest once and for all by going and having a look at the original series out of production page on the Esp Japan official website! It sure looks to me like the 90s MII Custom and Deluxe are right there on the original series page. Why would they do that? Are they stupid? Don't they know that's just not accurate? Don't they know that they changed techniques over such a long time span that it's just not comparable??

ESP Original Series -M-II-

View attachment 145907

No, trying to compare a bolt on horizon to a neck through horizon is not the same thing at all. They don't make an original series bolt on horizon anymore. But comparing a bolt on MII Deluxe to another bolt on MII Deluxe is definitely comparable. Or a neck through MII Custom. Or a neck through Horizon I.

So you're trying to tell me that the "modern" original series (which still nobody cares to set a date when this supposed jump in "quality" started) are all 100% hand carved with no use of machinery?

You guys keep saying that tHeRe WaS nO cUsToM sHoP until some nebulous point in time that neither of you wish to divulge. So that would mean their "standard models" original series guitars were made right alongside the custom orders. Which also seems to upset you because they can't be the same quality as the custom guitars for some other unknown reason...

Maybe the specs became more fancy over time with stainless frets and reinforced necks and fancy neck joint contouring, but the "quality" and attention to detail stayed the same. Maybe one guy builds an MII Deluxe in his own sweet time with only hand tools in a free range cruelty free custom shop these days instead of a few people in a workshop like before but the "quality" is still the same. Every Esp I've owned or played has had the same attention to detail except for the ones with the standard series decal on the back which only the one with the feelable line between different finishes on the neck through joint was any lesser "quality". Every 90s Esp I've touched has had the same flawless attention to details as the custom shop and technical house guitars. I don't know who told you guys that at some point they started making them better but they don't. They make them different than they used to the same as every other manufacturer but claiming they're now better "quality" is just a tactic to sell more new products.

Circling around again, neither of you have yet to show any kind of proof of the newer ones being higher "quality" and the older ones being lower "quality".

I literally posted the link to the Esp Japan website where they go back to the mid 90s showing the discontinued original series models from the original series page. What more proof is needed? What proof do you guys have? Did you guys work there?

 

[Whoman Bean]

Did you guys work there?

I worked there, but moved to Jackson coz it's less confusing

 

[mehegama]

No, trying to compare a bolt on horizon to a neck through horizon is not the same thing at all

seems impossible with you, doesn't it? You were referencing the old ESPs with the custom guitars logo as the equivalent of today's originals, now you say it applies only to some?
Look i ve posted you loads of material that shows what they offered now and then.
They did have production standard models then and now and they have custom shop orders then and now. The originals are just small runs of the custom shop with prespecified specs. There was no equivalent to this back then.
The custom guitars logo was put mostly on export guitars but honestly it does not mean anything.
Have a nice day.

 

[Nightside]

seems impossible with you, doesn't it? You were referencing the old ESPs with the custom guitars logo as the equivalent of today's originals, now you say it applies only to some?
Look i ve posted you loads of material that shows what they offered now and then.
They did have production standard models then and now and they have custom shop orders then and now. The originals are just small runs of the custom shop with prespecified specs. There was no equivalent to this back then.
The custom guitars logo was put mostly on export guitars but honestly it does not mean anything.
Have a nice day.

Seems impossible with you guys. A standard series model is obviously not an original series model. I never said the standard series became the original series. The original series is the original series. Models like MII Deluxe and Custom, Eclipse Custom, Horizon I and II and so on. OP was asking about his MII which I'm guessing is a 90s Deluxe bolt on with the custom guitars sticker which is an original series and not a standard series which would just have plain MII next to the logo.

The custom guitars sticker was put on export guitars like everyone has always agreed. It was just another slogan. Nobody ever said it meant it was a custom shop decal because they have the same decal that literally says custom shop. Even custom ordered guitars from the same period also have the custom guitars sticker. And later on the same kind that said standard series and signature series and original series which was a lot better way of keeping track. Except for when they did sigs in both custom shop and standard series versions.

My hang up is you guys try to make out like the old Esp originals are somehow a lower form than the current original series. And my question has always been why the distinction and when did this quality jump up so substantially?

Even Esp said when they came out with the EII rebranding that they wanted to differentiate them from the original series that they've always been making. So if anything, the standard series and EII are lower quality than the original series. Which in my experience has been so close to be negligible anyway.

 

[mehegama]

The original series is the original series. Models like MII Deluxe and Custom, Eclipse Custom, Horizon I and II and so on

First of all do not call these the original series. They were never called that and you confuse people when there is an “Original Series” that also includes Arrow, Forest and Mystique models that did not even exist back then.
Also the first versions
of the Mirage/M, the Horizon and the Eclipse were a Barretta, a smaller strat style and a telecaster style guitars respectively, so they were not even the original initial shapes of these guitars. The name Original is used coz they use the original block logo and they are custom shop runs. So please do not conflate
the two.

My hang up is you guys try to make out like the old Esp originals are somehow a lower form than the current original series. And my question has always been why the distinction and when did this quality jump up so substantially?

Again you conflate the two. The old ESPs were production standard models were by construction and that means less attention to the detail BUT it does not mean they are bad or anything. As @narad said there is variability in quality, as with all guitar brands. I mean how many dogs are coming out fromthe Jackson custom shop (23 frets) or the crap ones from the Gibson custom shop.
In my opinion they were very good guitars, some flawless, some not so much, but let s not conflate them with the current ones.

 

[Jon Pearson]

I just gotta say as a guy who has no real understanding of any of ESPs product lines, this whole discussion comes across as absolutely goofy

 

[mehegama]

I just gotta say as a guy who has no real understanding of any of ESPs product lines, this whole discussion comes across as absolutely goofy

given that loads of people write crap on their ebay or reverb posts, and people paying a lot for stuff that cost way less, it s good info, although I admit this thread is a page more than it should.
Go check relevant threads on LPs and strats if you want to see really goofy stuff

 

[Jon Pearson]

given that loads of people write crap on their ebay or reverb posts, and people paying a lot for stuff that cost way less, it s good info, although I admit this thread is a page more than it should.
Go check relevant threads on LPs and strats if you want to see really goofy stuff

Yeah I mean I'm glad now that I am more aware of the didn't series that they make, because up until this point I was only really aware that they had started EII a few years ago to create a new "tier". I still don't know if I really understand the different levels of ESP, I think it goes something along the lines of:

LTD
EII
ESP USA (?)
Original (?)

But where all the old lines line LTD Elite and the Standards, the older stuff from the 80s/90s comes in is completely over my head.

 

[narad]

My hang up is you guys try to make out like the old Esp originals are somehow a lower form than the current original series. And my question has always been why the distinction and when did this quality jump up so substantially?

The funny subtext to this whole discussion is that you're having it with the two of the three or so people on the planet who love the pre-custom shop models so much they pay stupid amounts of money for ESP to restore their pre-custom shop guitars. And then trying to make us out like we're saying those guitars are shit.

Even Esp said when they came out with the EII rebranding that they wanted to differentiate them from the original series that they've always been making. So if anything, the standard series and EII are lower quality than the original series. Which in my experience has been so close to be negligible anyway.

No one's arguing that standard / EII aren't intended to be lower tier / lower quality. But actually if you were asking for some specific thing to point to that differentiates them hands-on, no one's actually able to say anything specific even for the tiers that are known to be cheaper to produce. And similarly in this case we know that manufacturing changed and the three custom shops were established and took over production of what was then named the custom shop and original series. You want to claim it doesn't make a difference who is building the guitars or in what shop with what tooling. I think it does. And I don't think the guitars before are objectively worse, because I subjectively prefer those guitars. But I think it's clear ESP over time switched to a higher price / lower output / longer build time process for their higher quality tier and the establishing of the custom shops was the start of that.

Yeah I mean I'm glad now that I am more aware of the didn't series that they make, because up until this point I was only really aware that they had started EII a few years ago to create a new "tier". I still don't know if I really understand the different levels of ESP, I think it goes something along the lines of:

LTD
EII
ESP USA (?)
Original (?)

But where all the old lines line LTD Elite and the Standards, the older stuff from the 80s/90s comes in is completely over my head.

Well E-II was different in that it was just a rebranding of the standard series.