Old 90's "Custom Guitars" ESPs

[Swarm]

The funny subtext to this whole discussion is that you're having it with the two of the three or so people on the planet who love the pre-custom shop models so much they pay stupid amounts of money for ESP to restore their pre-custom shop guitars. And then trying to make us out like we're saying those guitars are shit.


No one's arguing that standard / EII aren't intended to be lower tier / lower quality. But actually if you were asking for some specific thing to point to that differentiates them hands-on, no one's actually able to say anything specific even for the tiers that are known to be cheaper to produce. And similarly in this case we know that manufacturing changed and the three custom shops were established and took over production of what was then named the custom shop and original series. You want to claim it doesn't make a difference who is building the guitars or in what shop with what tooling. I think it does. And I don't think the guitars before are objectively worse, because I subjectively prefer those guitars. But I think it's clear ESP over time switched to a higher price / lower output / longer build time process for their higher quality tier and the establishing of the custom shops was the start of that.



Well E-II was different in that it was just a rebranding of the standard series.

It would be interesting to have really in depth comparisons between various models and eras of ESPs, it's really hard to really figure out differences in quality etc outside the obvious spec variations. I'd love to see videos or posts comparing an MII from the 90s and a similar OS for example, pinpointing the QC, fretwork (although that might be hard to compare for a 90s guitar which might have fretwork done etc) etc. I've been considering getting a KH2 and I'm wondering how much of an upgrade if any it would be from my MII. Same for Eclipses etc... These are hardly affordable guitars and it's incredibly hard to find info on them honestly, just type ESP Original Series in youtube for size. And this thread really proves how much it's difficult to really get info and understand the different ESP tiers and the evolution of the guitars through the years

 

[Nightside]

First of all do not call these the original series. They were never called that and you confuse people when there is an “Original Series” that also includes Arrow, Forest and Mystique models that did not even exist back then.
Also the first versions
of the Mirage/M, the Horizon and the Eclipse were a Barretta, a smaller strat style and a telecaster style guitars respectively, so they were not even the original initial shapes of these guitars. The name Original is used coz they use the original block logo and they are custom shop runs. So please do not conflate
the two.


Again you conflate the two. The old ESPs were production standard models were by construction and that means less attention to the detail BUT it does not mean they are bad or anything. As @narad said there is variability in quality, as with all guitar brands. I mean how many dogs are coming out fromthe Jackson custom shop (23 frets) or the crap ones from the Gibson custom shop.
In my opinion they were very good guitars, some flawless, some not so much, but let s not conflate them with the current ones.

The Esp Japan website which I've posted twice now has mid 90s MII Deluxe and Custom as the original series. Literally Esp themselves say they are the original series so take your argument to them if you don't believe them. You say you found a 90s catalog with standard series or standard models so apparently the distinction between original series models and standard series models began back in the 90s. And they've been adding models as they come up with them. The mystique came out in like 2014. Are you trying to say that a 2013 Aero isn't really an original series because it was before the other models came out? That makes no sense. If you go to the Esp Japan website you'll see in the current original series offerings that seven out of fourteen models do not use the original block letter logo so that is not what makes them original series.


The second guitar I ever owned was an Ltd M200 that I only found out years after selling it was made in Japan. I assumed it was Korean like other Ltds my cousin bought later because why would the cheapo budget guitar be made in the same place the high end guitars were... I got mine the year before the 100 series was available and my cousin got his H100 when they first came out. Mine was always a bit of a mystery to us because the back of the headstock was blank while my cousin had a serial number and Korea decal. His H100 model number was inlayed on the 12th fret and mine just said L T D on the 12th fret and had the serial number stamped on the fretboard end. His tuners were blank and mine said Gotoh. Also the outline of the body shape of his was different. The Ltd M100, 200, and 300 in the new musician's friend catalog also had different body outlines and the headstock shape was changed while mine was shaped just like the Japanese MII. It really hurt my feelings when I found out the old Ltds were made in Japan because how badly I treated my "low tier" learning guitar and how little I sold it for.

The funny subtext to this whole discussion is that you're having it with the two of the three or so people on the planet who love the pre-custom shop models so much they pay stupid amounts of money for ESP to restore their pre-custom shop guitars. And then trying to make us out like we're saying those guitars are shit.


No one's arguing that standard / EII aren't intended to be lower tier / lower quality. But actually if you were asking for some specific thing to point to that differentiates them hands-on, no one's actually able to say anything specific even for the tiers that are known to be cheaper to produce. And similarly in this case we know that manufacturing changed and the three custom shops were established and took over production of what was then named the custom shop and original series. You want to claim it doesn't make a difference who is building the guitars or in what shop with what tooling. I think it does. And I don't think the guitars before are objectively worse, because I subjectively prefer those guitars. But I think it's clear ESP over time switched to a higher price / lower output / longer build time process for their higher quality tier and the establishing of the custom shops was the start of that.

You still don't say when this change happened which would be good information for people looking to get an older Esp and avoid the lower tier standard models. Which I still don't agree with. Maybe they moved shops. Maybe they build less. Maybe they jacked up prices. But they are still made to the same high quality standard. It's not that they've somehow been able to impart some magical mojo higher quality that wasn't there in the 90s. It's just that they became so popular that they realized they could charge more for what they do and people will pay it. Because their quality level was always miles better than most everything else. Why would Metallica drop Jackson, THE brand for metal guitars made in the USA for some unheard of Japanese company making knockoffs if the quality wasn't there to begin with? Kirk had his RR and James got a KV. They were leaning toward a deal with Jackson but James though the KV was too small on him and preferred the bigger body explorer. Lynch introduced Kirk to Esp. Kirk took a 400 series Strat copy and ordered his Zorlac custom. James literally sent them his 84 explorer to copy which became the MX220.

When my cousin and I bought our Ltds in the late 90s, NOBODY who wasn't a die hard Metallica fan had even heard of Esp guitars. We would ask music store owners about ordering one and nobody knew what we were talking about. We found out there was a dealer a couple hundred miles away and drove there to get ours. Even in 2006 when you could walk into GC and play some Ltds most people had no idea about Esp. I took my KH4 custom into a local shop for a restring and setup. This place had all the usual Fender and Gibson and Ibanez and other no name lower end stuff. But he was also a USA Jackson dealer and had SL2s and DK1s and stuff hanging around. I went on a deployment after I left my guitar there and when I came back he was an Esp dealer with a bunch of standard series stuff. He was so excited to show me this Horizon NTII with a blue aqua quilt veneer and he called it his Jackson killer.

The quality was always there and it's always impressed people. Now that they've impressed a lot more people and became a big well known name they can charge what they want for it. A neck can only be so straight. Frets can only be so straight and polished. A finish can only be so flat and smooth. They did that stuff perfect already from the beginning which is what earned them their reputation. They're so expensive now because of inflation and because now they're able to charge a premium for the name just like Gibson, Fender, and Jackson. I've literally never played a guitar that was better made than an Esp. From the 90s or 00s or 10s all the Esps I've played have had the same build quality. Apart from the standard series MII NTB I mentioned from 2012 where you could feel a line in the paint between the two finish types. Even Edwards I'd put in the same quality tier as Esp standard/EII. I've had some of those too and they also are extremely high quality.

Idk I think we may just have some kind of misunderstanding. It seems like you guys are trying to say that I'm claiming all the 90s guitars are from the custom shop because of the custom guitars decal and it seems to me like you guys were trying to say the current original series are something completely different on a whole other quality level than the ones they were already making just because they changed their shops and build less and charge more.

 

[narad]

You still don't say when this change happened which would be good information for people looking to get an older Esp and avoid the lower tier standard models. Which I still don't agree with. Maybe they moved shops. Maybe they build less. Maybe they jacked up prices. But they are still made to the same high quality standard. It's not that they've somehow been able to impart some magical mojo higher quality that wasn't there in the 90s.

This and parts below seems to follow this way a lot of people approach guitars that is fundamentally wrong. Or maybe you could say right, but needs to be applied generally. And that is not an ESP thing, but a "what makes a good guitar" thing? I think maybe the best analogy would come from a painter I saw who presented an experiment where she painted the same request in one hour, ten hours, and a hundred hours. It's not like she's adding special mojo with more hours, but increasingly she can take something that would get a short amount of attention, and spend several hours focusing on it. And the difference was obvious (obviously).

So I agree they're not adding magic mojo after moving to the custom shop. In the same way they're not adding less mojo to standard series. Or even less mojo to grassroots. These are simply skills, processes, time, and equipment. We know these changed, but we don't know exactly what has changed between all of these moves and restructurings over time.

And to bring this back around, between most of these mentioned tiers, all the hardware is identical, as are the specs of the instruments. So can you grab a standard series that is as good as a custom shop? Yes, functionally, as an instrument, I think so. But if I gave you 100 random standards and a 100 random custom shops, I think you'd be able to tell which is which as well. What you get from the custom shop is a consistently amazing instrument, from a build perspective at least. They're able to do that because the company has made a commitment to building at that level, making sure the builders have the time and resources to do it. And the batch sizes, production delays, and increased prices we have today are the result. The most obvious thing these days is the fretwork and finishes are a step above. The fretwork was always "good" from a playability point of view, but today it's downright luxurious. The only way you're going to get that on an old one is to send it in to ESP, which I do.

And on the old ones I've had (and maybe still have) some with wonky side dots and crooked pickup routes, trem routes, or messy paint masking in the trem cavity. They're pretty consistently good but you own enough of them and you start to find things. Which is also not to say the newer ones couldn't have these issues, but given the amount of time they spend to build one now, I'm betting not.

Why would Metallica drop Jackson, THE brand for metal guitars made in the USA for some unheard of Japanese company making knockoffs if the quality wasn't there to begin with?

Never assume an artist leaves a brand for quality.

 

[MFB]

For those following along at home, and not in the know, don't be fooled by the originally quoted member and now Nightside - they're the same person!

This man has transitioned thru so many usernames, I'm surprised Congress isn't worried about which bathroom they're using! *insert spinning bow-tie here*

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

Nobody anywhere implied the new being better than the old. Let that sink in.
I said that to me I noticed the fretwork being perfect (or as Narad said ‘luxurious’)on my original and it being not to the same level on my lawsuit era ESP.
Fretwork is just that, it doesn’t make the quality of the product worse. Just not the same level of detail.
Game over, discussion is done.

 

[narad]

For those following along at home, and not in the know, don't be fooled by the originally quoted member and now Nightside - they're the same person!

This man has transitioned thru so many usernames, I'm surprised Congress isn't worried about which bathroom they're using! *insert spinning bow-tie here*

He's just trying to prove in the meta sense that they can change the brand but the product remains identical.

 

[mehegama]

Literally Esp themselves say they are the original series so take your argument to them if you don't believe them

I don't think you understand what I said or really what the original series really are. The "Original Series" is one of the tiers ESP has been offering. They introduced it in the late 2000s and passed through different phases (they had also a vintage series a custom series etc. that kept changing every year). Finally in 2013 they decided that they ll rebrand the old standard series as E-II and the ESP logo will only be used on custom shop made guitars. So they created this Original Series tier where, every year, they produce a small number of custom shop guitars models, some classic ones like the M and Horizons and some newer shapes like the Arrow and the Forest. That is what you see in the japanese site. Please do not confuse people by using this term for the old production models.
I own, and have owned all these tiers through the years from 1987 models to my personal custom shop orders, what others say more or less about the quality is my experience also.
And honestly this is my last post on this, as it s becoming ridiculous at this point. I d suggest you have a look on these before you spread misinformation coz i m tired of seeing wrong info on guitar sale posts, calling anything custom shop.

 

[Nightside]

I don't think you understand what I said or really what the original series really are. The "Original Series" is one of the tiers ESP has been offering. They introduced it in the late 2000s and passed through different phases (they had also a vintage series a custom series etc. that kept changing every year). Finally in 2013 they decided that they ll rebrand the old standard series as E-II and the ESP logo will only be used on custom shop made guitars. So they created this Original Series tier where, every year, they produce a small number of custom shop guitars models, some classic ones like the M and Horizons and some newer shapes like the Arrow and the Forest. That is what you see in the japanese site. Please do not confuse people by using this term for the old production models.
I own, and have owned all these tiers through the years from 1987 models to my personal custom shop orders, what others say more or less about the quality is my experience also.
And honestly this is my last post on this, as it s becoming ridiculous at this point. I d suggest you have a look on these before you spread misinformation coz i m tired of seeing wrong info on guitar sale posts, calling anything custom shop.

When exactly did you start playing? I know for a fact the original series has been on the Esp Japan website since I first started looking at it in 2002. The current site has original series models dating back to the mid 90s when MIIs still had an angled single size humbucker in the neck before the 2h came in 97 or 98. There was no creating the original series for only the custom shop made guitars in the late 2000s. They may have moved production sometime in the 2000s but the series existed years before. The forest model has also existed since the 90s so I don't know where you are getting your misinformation from. But I agree, people really should do their research before spreading their opinions and speculation as facts.

 

[mehegama]

When exactly did you start playing? I know for a fact the original series has been on the Esp Japan website since I first started looking at it in 2002. The current site has original series models dating back to the mid 90s when MIIs still had an angled single size humbucker in the neck before the 2h came in 97 or 98. There was no creating the original series for only the custom shop made guitars in the late 2000s. They may have moved production sometime in the 2000s but the series existed years before. The forest model has also existed since the 90s so I don't know where you are getting your misinformation from. But I agree, people really should do their research before spreading their opinions and speculation as facts.

This is just hopeless. Have a nice day. I suggest that you do not spread misinformation, it perpetuates the problem

 

[MetalDestroyer]

1. I bought (and returned) a very early 2000's Forest GT last year so late 2000s is at least mildly inaccurate

2. technically any shop that makes custom guitars can be called a custom shop. Even if pre late-2000's ESP's are prod models with custom options, sellers are gonna list guitars in the way that sounds most fancy and there's really no point being mad about it

3. If you think the Standard Series or E-II guitars are anywhere near the ballpark of Original Series, I have to question your ability to look at and feel stuff

4. ESP USA's are dumb and usually ugly - they should put E-II on those and switch the current Japanese production line back to ESP Standard Series

 

[narad]

2. technically any shop that makes custom guitars can be called a custom shop. Even if pre late-2000's ESP's are prod models with custom options, sellers are gonna list guitars in the way that sounds most fancy and there's really no point being mad about it

Custom shop has a specific meaning for the ESP brand, so there's no point in being coy about it. It'd be like selling all my ESPs as "technical house" because they were technically built in a place that houses things. Also for the most part we're talking guitars that don't have custom options.

3. If you think the Standard Series or E-II guitars are anywhere near the ballpark of Original Series, I have to question your ability to look at and feel stuff

You say that but I'm willing to bet no one would be able to tell the difference in quality between a good standard series and an average custom shop, apart from things that always improve with time, like fret and finish polishing.

 

[MetalDestroyer]

Custom shop has a specific meaning for the ESP brand, so there's no point in being coy about it. It'd be like selling all my ESPs as "technical house" because they were technically built in a place that houses things. Also for the most part we're talking guitars that don't have custom options.

And how many Reverb sellers, and buyers, do you think know that much? Or even care? You can have a tendency to miss the forest for the trees on subjects you care a lot about so you get a bit of a pass here, but try to see it from the perspective of someone who doesn't live for ESP lore.

no one would be able to tell the difference in quality between a good standard series and an average custom shop, apart from things that always improve with time, like fret and finish polishing.

I mean I still disagree, but I'd be willing to concede that maybe I've only owned the best of the best from the custom shop

 

[narad]

And how many Reverb sellers, and buyers, do you think know that much? Or even care? You can have a tendency to miss the forest for the trees on subjects you care a lot about so you get a bit of a pass here, but try to see it from the perspective of someone who doesn't live for ESP lore.

That's a weird stance to take -- that, at best, being ignorant about the items you're selling should make it okay to misrepresent them (and ask often thousands more than they're worth in the process). And what about the people who know better and still do it?

I mean I still disagree, but I'd be willing to concede that maybe I've only owned the best of the best from the custom shop

It's not about the best from the custom shop. The QC standards at the custom shop are very high and that establishes a floor on the quality of custom shop guitars. But when it comes to the standard series, there's also a floor, but there's really no ceiling. Sometimes you luck out and you just get one through with absolutely nothing that would have benefitted from additional attention.

 

[MetalDestroyer]

That's a weird stance to take -- that, at best, being ignorant about the items you're selling should make it okay to misrepresent them (and ask often thousands more than they're worth in the process). And what about the people who know better and still do it?

I think you’re overestimating how much the average guitar consumer cares about the distinction between the original 80s ESPs, the distributed custom shop era, and the modern custom shop. If they are flagship model ESPs built in the highest end factory, they are equivalent enough for the non-fanboys. That’s where I think this argument dissolves- not that people don’t recognize that they are different, but that you are asking them to care about a distinction that feels way more black and white to you than to them.

It's not about the best from the custom shop. The QC standards at the custom shop are very high and that establishes a floor on the quality of custom shop guitars. But when it comes to the standard series, there's also a floor, but there's really no ceiling. Sometimes you luck out and you just get one through with absolutely nothing that would have benefitted from additional attention.

In isolation I would consider the standard series I still own to be perfect from a lack-of-flaws perspective. From a craftsmanship perspective, it pales in comparison to the Kiso I kept and the Original I sold. The lines between the paint and binding are sharper. The neck carve is straighter. The headstock angles seem over sanded on the standard series in comparison. The gloss coat is more perfect. It’s a thing where every detail is 1% better, and when you put them side by side there’s an obvious difference. The Kiso was built in 2014 and the standard in 2011. The Original was even slightly more perfecter, but I didn’t like the neck carve.

The other identical standard I sold was a bit worse from a craftsmanship standpoint, but still good enough to warrant its build level. Same with the E-IIs I’ve played in shops - worth asking price but not really anything “special”.

So I guess I can maybe see the argument that one or two standards left the factory at Kiso+ quality, but that level of absolute obsessive perfection is something I’ve only personally seen in the two custom shop ESPs I’ve owned.

 

[mehegama]

I think you’re overestimating how much the average guitar consumer cares about the distinction between the original 80s ESPs, the distributed custom shop era, and the modern custom shop. If they are flagship model ESPs built in the highest end factory, they are equivalent enough for the non-fanboys. That’s where I think this argument dissolves- not that people don’t recognize that they are different, but that you are asking them to care about a distinction that feels way more black and white to you than to them.

I don't get this though, wouldn't it be better if people posting their stuff with accurate descriptions and asking appropriate money?

 

[MetalDestroyer]

I don't get this though, wouldn't it be better if people posting their stuff with accurate descriptions and asking appropriate money?

yes, it would be

 

[narad]

I think you’re overestimating how much the average guitar consumer cares about the distinction between the original 80s ESPs, the distributed custom shop era, and the modern custom shop. If they are flagship model ESPs built in the highest end factory, they are equivalent enough for the non-fanboys. That’s where I think this argument dissolves- not that people don’t recognize that they are different, but that you are asking them to care about a distinction that feels way more black and white to you than to them.

That distinction is reflected in the market value, so someone cares. Go check out like an 85 ESP random star. Something with a flicker bridge. The quality is not even particularly good, let alone at the near perfection of official "custom shop" labeled ESPs that came later. And one is < $1k and the others are $3k+ You're acting like these are niche subjective opinions and the reality is different, but the market is the reality, and I get reality checked by it every time I list or buy an ESP, which is often.

 

[MetalDestroyer]

That distinction is reflected in the market value, so someone cares. Go check out like an 85 ESP random star. Something with a flicker bridge. The quality is not even particularly good, let alone at the near perfection of official "custom shop" labeled ESPs that came later. And one is < $1k and the others are $3k+ You're acting like these are niche subjective opinions and the reality is different, but the market is the reality, and I get reality checked by it every time I list or buy an ESP, which is often.

This is putting words in my mouth. I agree with everything else you're saying.

I'm not saying people's lack of knowledge, and lack of concern for that lack of knowledge, has no effect. Especially in such a small market it probably has more of an effect than elsewhere. I'm just saying that I think it's fair and reasonable for a layperson to ask for comparison between the different eras of ESP flagship model lines, and for them to not particularly care about how vastly different they were/are. This is obviously to the detriment of those that do care.

You have to admit that info about ESP is not particularly easy to come across, and the information that's out there is fragmented and often contradictory. As someone who considers himself at least mildly informed about ESP, I've still had to come to you for advice on fair prices just because there are so few people out there with that kind of up-to-date knowledge. I think most sellers are used to googling easy to find spec sheets, doing a quick Reverb search for a fair price, and listing things for sale based on that. You know that that is inappropriate for certain ESP's. Most people do not.

 

[narad]

This is putting words in my mouth. I agree with everything else you're saying.

I'm not saying people's lack of knowledge, and lack of concern for that lack of knowledge, has no effect. Especially in such a small market it probably has more of an effect than elsewhere. I'm just saying that I think it's fair and reasonable for a layperson to ask for comparison between the different eras of ESP flagship model lines, and for them to not particularly care about how vastly different they were/are. This is obviously to the detriment of those that do care.

You have to admit that info about ESP is not particularly easy to come across, and the information that's out there is fragmented and often contradictory. As someone who considers himself at least mildly informed about ESP, I've still had to come to you for advice on fair prices just because there are so few people out there with that kind of up-to-date knowledge. I think most sellers are used to googling easy to find spec sheets, doing a quick Reverb search for a fair price, and listing things for sale based on that. You know that that is inappropriate for certain ESP's. Most people do not.

Sure, it's super confusing and I'm happy if people who are uncertain ask for clarification rather than take guesses. But I'm seeing an awful lot of guitars being sold by guys who know better, and these are more my concern. I'm not out to get the innocently naive mislabeling. Because, as you say, I'm very wrapped up in the ESP community and I think the groups where guitars actually change hands is rather small, and at this point sometimes it's like, "ah, that's the horizon that X had before he sold it to Y. And now Z has it? Interesting".

Related, I'm currently banned for a month from the ESP Guitars Owners FB group for similar discussion in the presence of idiot mods.

On the other hand, there was the Bali God or whatever guy in here who was playing an LTD for a year thinking it was a custom shop alexi and raving about it. I think people do care about the general consensus of quality between custom shop and non-custom shop, it's just that sometimes the label is what's driving their perception of quality and not the other way around, as in his crazy case.

 

[Nightside]

My cousin is huge into Esp as well and got taken for a ride thinking he was buying a custom shop neon orange MII NTB and I had to break it to him that it was just a dealer run standard series from DCGL years ago. Which he should have known. But he doesn't get as deep into what was made where and when by whom. All he cares about is that block letter Esp logo.