Should veneers on expensive (ESP) guitars bother me

[Shoeless_jose]

I have big time GAS for ESP (E-II) Eclipse and Horizon. But hesitate pulling the trigger as they cost around 2500 Canadian money and for something with a veneer that feels like I'm getting hosed. Does the rest of the fit/finish/workmanship make it still worthwhile?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

It's probably because how poorly maplebucks are doing right now. That's only like $1800 USD which is where you see plenty of veneers on production guitars.

Is the model you're looking at only offered in transparent finishes?

Personally, in that price bracket, it wouldn't bother me.

 

[Shoeless_jose]

It's probably because how poorly maplebucks are doing right now. That's only like $1800 USD which is where you see plenty of veneers on production guitars.

Is the model you're looking at only offered in transparent finishes?

Personally, in that price bracket, it wouldn't bother me.

Well I had pretty bad vintage black eclipse gas for a long ass time.

But then this variant came along and has me very interested.

Just feel i may feel I should have just bought another Gibson at that price point. But I cant shake ESP gas lol

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Well I had pretty bad vintage black eclipse gas for a long ass time.

But then this variant came along and has me very interested.

Just feel i may feel I should have just bought another Gibson at that price point. But I cant shake ESP gas lol

I'd go for it.

I mean, EBMM get away with veneers on $3500 guitars, so don't worry about it.

 

[Cynicanal]

Does the solid-color version cost the same? If so, don't worry about it. If not, you're getting taken for a ride.

 

[Demiurge]

^ On MF, the EII Eclipses are $1800 for USD for the solid black and a quilt top so it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[_MonSTeR_]

When is a certain thickness of a piece of wood "acceptable" and when is it not?

Maybe if companies started spinning it the other way... "all the decorative beauty of figured maple, all the classic tone of solid mahogany - veneers so thin they don't subtract from your hard earned sound"

I should work in advertising!

 

[Lorcan Ward]

I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.

 

[TheWarAgainstTime]

I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.

PRS has been doing that forever on the SE stuff. I had a Paul Allender sig for a while that had a really nice quilt veneer and trans purple burst, but also a 1/4" or so thick plain maple top with natural binding around the body. It was already a solid guitar overall, but I thought that was a nice bonus

 

[Avedas]

I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.

Maybe I'm crazy but whenever I see a guitar with a veneer I always think it looks like a sticker or whatever before I even see it from the side and realize it's a veneer. Something about veneers look so fake to me in person and it's really off putting.

 

[diagrammatiks]

Hard pass. Veneers are gross on things that expensive. Just make it a solid color.

 

[spudmunkey]

Hard pass. Veneers are gross on things that expensive. Just make it a solid color.

Unless you see the edges, they will look identical (arguably likely to actually look even better) to a solid wood cap. Or do you mean morally "gross"?

 

[spudmunkey]

I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.

I think people have the wrong idea about veneers. Some of the highest-grade figured woods are more likely to be made into veneers, for things like suite-matched/continuous door and drawer fronts on luxury/high-quality furniture.

People who say they can tell it's a veneer from the face of a guitar are fooling themselves, or are misunderstanding what they are seeing. It's indistinguishable, unless you're able to see through 1 or 2mm of wood. What you see as chatoyance and depth of figuring has nothing to do with the actual thickness or depth of the wood...it's the direction that the fibers of the wood are orientated when it's surfaced. You can get the same effect on a shorn pile carpet. Colors shift as you calk around it because the fibers are cut on a specific and uniform angle, so colors get darker or lighter as you walk around it.

Like bolt-ons or rosewood fretboards, you're more likely to see veneer on cheaper instruments, so that's part of why they get a bad rap. But as we all know with bolt-ons and rosewood, great examples of all three are possible. The builder just has to put the same attention to detail, build quality, and pickiness in materials as they would all of their other materials and build processes.

 

[diagrammatiks]

Unless you see the edges, they will look identical (arguably likely to actually look even better) to a solid wood cap. Or do you mean morally "gross"?

morally.

 

[Soya]

It's probably because how poorly maplebucks are doing right now. That's only like $1800 USD which is where you see plenty of veneers on production guitars.

Is the model you're looking at only offered in transparent finishes?

Personally, in that price bracket, it wouldn't bother me.

I've never heard the term maplebucks before, that's fantastic

 

[AkiraSpectrum]

I get what you're saying, generally you don't see too many veneers on instruments in the $2500 CAD price range (~$1800 USD), but some companies still do it. Ultimately, in terms of build-quality and components, an E-II is more than worth the price, regardless of whether or not they use veneers over the maple top.

I have an E-II Mystique that I love and is an amazing instrument. Sure it has a veneer over a maple top, but everything about the instrument is top notch, and it feels just as good as any guitar in a higher price range. It has the feel and overall build quality that generally matches many high end guitars that I've played (and I've played countless guitars in the $3K-12K CAD range: PRS, Suhr, Anderson, Fender Custom, Gibson Custom, Music Man, Ibanez---Yes a Suhr or an Anderson is a little bit nicer than an E-II but not by much). After playing tons of super high end guitars and then seeing how well made the E-II's are (playing 4 or 5 in a row one day at Cosmo Music in Richmond Hill), the price is more than worth it, veneer or not. I was about to purchase a brand new E-II ($2500-$2800: was debating on an Eclipse and a Horizon) because it gave me that 'high-end guitar' feel/quality that I couldn't help but want after playing all the super high end instruments I had been playing at music stores, that is until I found a killer price on an E-II Mystique in Toronto (before i moved away from the city).

I'd grab that new E-II Eclipse if I were you (that one is a full-thickness model). Gibson Les Paul's will not come even close to an E-II Eclipse in terms of build and hardware/features, whether or not the Gibson has a 'full/real top'. Ultimately, I'd go out and try some E-II Eclipses and see how you like them in comparison to most any guitar in the price range. Cosmo Music in Richmond Hill usually has some E-II's in stock.

I think the debate over "maple top+veneer" vs. "lightly figured full maple top without veneer" is an interesting one (assuming the price is roughly the same). Not sure what my answer to that is, and I'm sure it will change from time to time.

 

[Strobe]

The E-II's are great. I own one like the one in my signature picture. Depending on the model, they may have a reasonable thickness maple cap under (or not). If it's pretty and it sounds good - no one else has to know .

 

[LiveOVErdrive]

I like to think of it as a finish. Is a sparkle paint finish a lie because it is only a mm or two thick? Nah, it's just a finish. Same with a veneer.

I'm guessing the perceived difference in appearance between veneers and solid wood is that veneers tend to be on cheaper guitars with worse finishes.

I have a couple cheap Agile guitars with figured maple veneer on top of a plain maple cap and the finish looks a little cheap. But that has everything to do with the burst just being a simple one tone candy paint burst rather than a hand dye straight into the wood like prs does.

But I've finished a few test pieces with figured veneer and with the same method as I use on solid wood it ends up looking the same.

 

[spudmunkey]

. Colors shift as you calk around it...

"Walk." I meant "walk around it".

 

[Jason B]

When is a certain thickness of a piece of wood "acceptable" and when is it not?

Maybe if companies started spinning it the other way... "all the decorative beauty of figured maple, all the classic tone of solid mahogany - veneers so thin they don't subtract from your hard earned sound"

I should work in advertising!

Guitar Center actually did this with the Laguna Greg Howe sig; and had him cut promos and give interviews claiming that going with a veneer instead of cap was to prevent the maple from “overpowering” the swamp ash body. Of course, he never mentioned how this interacted with the (obviously dovetailed) one-piece maple neck he specified for the same reasons of tonewoodal voodoo.