Stupid Things You Used to Believe About Music/Guitars

[DrakkarTyrannis]

I disagree. The job of a musician is to make music. The job of radios and the music media is to sell music. There's plenty of music out there that is a better product than Nickelback's music, that does not sell as well as Nickelback does. That doesn't mean that Nickelback makes better music.

If you want to espouse the idea of more sales = better product, then I could point out plenty of your arguments in threads about guitars and amps to convince you that yourself might have a point.

Nowhere did I day sales = better product and I never would.

But a professional musician pays their bills by making music. If you are signed to a big label it's quite literally your job to sell music. When you don't do your job they fire you aka not continuing your contract.

That's how the business works. You want to make hits because it works in your favor to do so.

These days musicians make their money off of tours and merch..BUT a hit song is how you make that happen. If you've got a hit on your hands then hopefully that means you'll make enough that the label and all the little folks get their money out of your release, and you've made enough to see money from it. That money also goes to funding tours, buying merch, etc.

The entire point of a single is to catch people's ears so they are interested in what you do. A single is essentially a commercial for your band. Any marketing will tell you that a commercial is only effective if it catches on.

 

[Mathemagician]

Agreed. The wrote that one song that was crazy popular. In fact, they kept writing that one song that was crazy popular, over and over.

I think the trouble with Nickelback is that they have some cool-enough songs, but they also aren't at all afraid to write the cringiest lyrics ever:

Any song that references Humpty Dumpty unironically is straight fire.

Dark Horse is the only good nickelback album

It’s also an AMAZING Katy Perry song. Try not to sing that chorus.

I disagree. The job of a musician is to make music. The job of radios and the music media is to sell music. There's plenty of music out there that is a better product than Nickelback's music, that does not sell as well as Nickelback does. That doesn't mean that Nickelback makes better music.

If you want to espouse the idea of more sales = better product, then I could point out plenty of your arguments in threads about guitars and amps to convince you that yourself might have a point.

Everyone does their job the simplest way possible. If the radio has to work to convince an audience that a song is good, versus a song that “sells itself” radio is going to pick the easy one.

If a band can play for a decade and still be stuck in tiny bars, or reach a level that allows them to feed their families (or better) it’s their choice to do that.

If a band does/doesn’t change their sound and I don’t like it I just find something new to listen to. They’re having fun and I work at an office like, who is having more fun?

Sales =/= Better, but does = Eating. And freeeee geeeaaaarrrr.

 

[bostjan]

Nowhere did I day sales = better product and I never would.

But a professional musician pays their bills by making music. If you are signed to a big label it's quite literally your job to sell music. When you don't do your job they fire you aka not continuing your contract.

That's how the business works. You want to make hits because it works in your favor to do so.

These days musicians make their money off of tours and merch..BUT a hit song is how you make that happen. If you've got a hit on your hands then hopefully that means you'll make enough that the label and all the little folks get their money out of your release, and you've made enough to see money from it. That money also goes to funding tours, buying merch, etc.

The entire point of a single is to catch people's ears so they are interested in what you do. A single is essentially a commercial for your band. Any marketing will tell you that a commercial is only effective if it catches on.

Pop musicians yes. Metal musicians - are you crazy? When was the last time any metal song was a "hit?"

The guys in Dream Theater and Periphery and whatever prog-whatever-hybrid-metal bands you and I don't listen to are still doing what they are doing and maybe had that one hit song that one time, but are still financially viable.

And this all comes back to how vapid some of Nickelback's lyrics are. If you gauge their success on how well they do their job, then you need to define their job. Selling records? Nobody sells records anymore. Writing good music? With those lyrics and that same tempo/structure/chord progression that they already used at least once on that same album? Nah. So what is it? It's consumerism. Everybody knows them because of the hate toward them, so it works in their favour in that respect.

I personally don't hate Nickelback. Hate's wayyyy too strong a term for my indifference toward their music. If I hear them on the radio, I'll just flip the station (oddly, I can't recall hearing them on the radio in the past ten years anyway). If you want to say that they are successful, then sure, but I wasn't trying to say that they weren't. I just think that their music is typically very low-effort. I think a lot of extremely popular music makes Nickelback's music sound like Beethoven's 9th Symphony, though, so it's all relative.

 

[bostjan]

Any song that references Humpty Dumpty unironically is straight fire.

Hey, cringecore is a legitimate genre, sure.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Pop musicians yes. Metal musicians - are you crazy? When was the last time any metal song was a "hit?"

The guys in Dream Theater and Periphery and whatever prog-whatever-hybrid-metal bands you and I don't listen to are still doing what they are doing and maybe had that one hit song that one time, but are still financially viable.

And this all comes back to how vapid some of Nickelback's lyrics are. If you gauge their success on how well they do their job, then you need to define their job. Selling records? Nobody sells records anymore. Writing good music? With those lyrics and that same tempo/structure/chord progression that they already used at least once on that same album? Nah. So what is it? It's consumerism. Everybody knows them because of the hate toward them, so it works in their favour in that respect.

I personally don't hate Nickelback. Hate's wayyyy too strong a term for my indifference toward their music. If I hear them on the radio, I'll just flip the station (oddly, I can't recall hearing them on the radio in the past ten years anyway). If you want to say that they are successful, then sure, but I wasn't trying to say that they weren't. I just think that their music is typically very low-effort. I think a lot of extremely popular music makes Nickelback's music sound like Beethoven's 9th Symphony, though, so it's all relative.

If you are signed to a label..you are signed because the label wants to make money off of you. Even metal bands attempt hits. That's the ENTIRE purpose of a single.

Every time you see a metal band with a new video, they are putting out the commercial for you to buy their brand. Even if it doesn't go platinum like mainstream artists, the entire purpose of a single is to be an ear bug that makes money.

Every metal band wants a "Raining Blood" or "Sad But True" or "Hammer Smashed Face". Those songs catch on, the bands make money.

You aren't signed to a label just because the label likes you as a person. That's not how it works. How do you think bands like Dream Theater and Periphery get what they get? Their music is at least minimally lucrative. Even if it's on a small scale, their songs still count as hits.

The entire purpose of a single is to put your best and catchiest song out there so it gets attention. That's hit making.

 

[bostjan]

If you are signed to a label..you are signed because the label wants to make money off of you. Even metal bands attempt hits. That's the ENTIRE purpose of a single.

Every time you see a metal band with a new video, they are putting out the commercial for you to buy their brand. Even if it doesn't go platinum like mainstream artists, the entire purpose of a single is to be an ear bug that makes money.

Every metal band wants a "Raining Blood" or "Sad But True" or "Hammer Smashed Face". Those songs catch on, the bands make money.

You aren't signed to a label just because the label likes you as a person. That's not how it works.

Where did I say that was how it worked?!

How do you think bands like Dream Theater and Periphery get what they get?

Because people buy their albums. People buy their albums because of the dense character of the music they make. Not because they write catchy earworms. Even though people buy their albums, these bands probably don't make enough money from album sales to support themselves (it's even been discussed by Misha from Periphery here on this forum). They get endorsements. Do they get endorsements from hit songs? Maybe, but it's exceptionally rare if it ever works that way at all.

For example, how does John Petrucci make money? Lots of ways - guitar clinics, guitar lessons, guitar videos, signature guitars, signature amps, John Petrucci merchandise, John Petrucci beard oil, touring, etc. etc. etc. There's a ton of diversity there. The brand "Dream Theater" is worth a thousand if not ten thousand times as much as whatever their plays and purchases are for singles.

Maybe those are more extreme examples, but, in metal bands, this is the general way things work out, not heaps of riches from being a hit-parade radio-friendly hit-factory.

Their music is at least minimally lucrative. Even if it's on a small scale, their songs still count as hits.

The entire purpose of a single is to put your best and catchiest song out there so it gets attention. That's hit making.

Still disagree. My question about which metal song in recent memory was a hit was completely ignored in your response to me, but ask yourself that question and try to see where I'm coming from before telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I mean, you are a reasonably accomplished musician yourself, so, I'm puzzled why you would even argue against me on this.

 

[Spicypickles]

Just wanna say that nickelback’s tones are pretty damn good.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Where did I say that was how it worked?!



Because people buy their albums. People buy their albums because of the dense character of the music they make. Not because they write catchy earworms. Even though people buy their albums, these bands probably don't make enough money from album sales to support themselves (it's even been discussed by Misha from Periphery here on this forum). They get endorsements. Do they get endorsements from hit songs? Maybe, but it's exceptionally rare if it ever works that way at all.

For example, how does John Petrucci make money? Lots of ways - guitar clinics, guitar lessons, guitar videos, signature guitars, signature amps, John Petrucci merchandise, John Petrucci beard oil, touring, etc. etc. etc. There's a ton of diversity there. The brand "Dream Theater" is worth a thousand if not ten thousand times as much as whatever their plays and purchases are for singles.

Maybe those are more extreme examples, but, in metal bands, this is the general way things work out, not heaps of riches from being a hit-parade radio-friendly hit-factory.



Still disagree. My question about which metal song in recent memory was a hit was completely ignored in your response to me, but ask yourself that question and try to see where I'm coming from before telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I mean, you are a reasonably accomplished musician yourself, so, I'm puzzled why you would even argue against me on this.

A hit isn't always something that makes heaps of money in the pop music sense. A hit is a song that has legs and walks in order to get bands broader attention and sells. For metal a hit might not be Beyonce levels of money, but a hit will take you far.

Walk
Raining Blood
No More Tears
Bodies
Hammer Smashed Face
Down With The Sickness
Brackish
Nookie
Enter Sandman
Falling Away From Me
Push It
Progenies Of The Great Apocalypse
Conquer All
Wait And Bleed

Those are all hit metal songs. Metal isn't likely to hit the top of the charts BUT for that genre those are defining songs that pave the way for bigger money. Some of the songs I mentioned lead to gold and platinum albums. Those are indeed hit songs.

I think you're assuming that writing a hit song means just making garbage that sells. That's not the point. Are you suggesting that bands can't be good and write hit music? Hit music is a formula. There are entire studies on this. When you want a single to do well you can craft one that has potential to do so. Or you take your most catchy song, have it edited as a single or radio edit and that's designed to fit within those parameters.


Talent isn't even a factor in the music industry. It's not about talent. It's about how much money you can generate to keep the wheels greased. Labels are about money. Dream Theatre makes money. Even if it's not huge money like Metallica would, they still pull down enough to keep things afloat. That's just how the music industry works.

Obviously endorsements and all that are part of it..but you know what gets endorsements? Popular musicians with a fan base. How do you get a fan base? Music that catches people. What's a single called that catches people and leads to money? A hit.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying but it comes across to me as if you don't know these things

 

[bostjan]

A hit song is a song on the charts...as in "hit the charts." The songs you listed... a couple I don't even know what they are (maybe if you listed the artists), some definitely did not chart, and the rest are well over 10 years old.

Take your prime example "Walk" (I assume Pantera). It never landed on the Billboard Charts and is 28 years old. It's not like the other examples are much newer and more popular than that one. But that doesn't qualify as a "hit," except in the broadest interpretation of the word... and that's the first one you thought of.

That's my point. Metal doesn't crank out hit songs, but still exists as an art form and still pays (some) career artists quite well, but not because of hit singles.

Sure, in general hit songs lead to fans which lead to money, but if a musician isn't cranking out hit songs, it does not, in any way, imply that the musician is not doing the job of ""musician."" Whether you write a song one person really really likes or you write a hundred songs that the grocery store blasts over its speakers to quietly passify millions customers, you qualify as a musician doing a good job.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

A hit song is a song on the charts...as in "hit the charts." The songs you listed... a couple I don't even know what they are (maybe if you listed the artists), some definitely did not chart, and the rest are well over 10 years old.

Take your prime example "Walk" (I assume Pantera). It never landed on the Billboard Charts and is 28 years old. It's not like the other examples are much newer and more popular than that one. But that doesn't qualify as a "hit," except in the broadest interpretation of the word... and that's the first one you thought of.

That's my point. Metal doesn't crank out hit songs, but still exists as an art form and still pays (some) career artists quite well, but not because of hit singles.

Sure, in general hit songs lead to fans which lead to money, but if a musician isn't cranking out hit songs, it does not, in any way, imply that the musician is not doing the job of ""musician."" Whether you write a song one person really really likes or you write a hundred songs that the grocery store blasts over its speakers to quietly passify millions customers, you qualify as a musician doing a good job.

Hit songs are songs that break a band into some form of success. I'll say it again, we aren't talking about hits in the pop sense.

Walk is indeed a hit song. It's one of the most easily recognized metal songs of all time, even by people who don't listen to metal. It's THE song Pantera is known for and it's what paved the path for their success. If that's not a hit I don't know what is.

Metal is full of hit songs. Remember the 80s hair metal thing? Remember the numetal movement?

When you have old ladies singing "Let the bodies hit the floor" at karaoke night in their small town bars, you can consider that song a hit.

And again..labels don't sign bands that they think won't make them money. And when they have bands that are duds with pulling in cash they drop them from the label.

When you sign to a label it's like working a regular job. Your boss expects certain things of you and if you don't meet the expectations set forth that are designed to make the boss money, he fires you.

Btw nowhere did I say a musician's job is to make hit songs/money. I said a professional musician signed to a label's job is to make money. Because it is. Labels don't care if you fart into a tin can. If it sells then they want you to keep doing it. Your job isn't just to make music. It's to make music that makes money.

Here's another example. Morbid Angel is the first band to ever be signed to a big label. They released Covenant and it was the biggest selling death metal album ever.

God of Emptiness became their "breakout" single.

Album has only sold 150,00 copies. Put in terms of death metal that is a huge hit. Why did the label sign them? Because death metal was taking off and labels wanted to cash in on it.

However death metal wasn't as big as labels were hoping for and even though by metal standards Covenant is groundbreaking, MA got dropped from the major label and went back to a smaller one.

A hit doesn't always mean millions of dollars. It wasn't a hit in the pop sense but that album put Morbid Angel on the map

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Oh and Vulgar Display Of Power went double platinum in just America alone. It went platinum and gold in other places. How's that not a hit record? It was on the Billboard 200 for 80 weeks.

 

[bostjan]

Hit songs are songs that break a band into some form of success. I'll say it again, we aren't talking about hits in the pop sense.

Walk is indeed a hit song. It's one of the most easily recognized metal songs of all time, even by people who don't listen to metal. It's THE song Pantera is known for and it's what paved the path for their success. If that's not a hit I don't know what is.

Metal is full of hit songs. Remember the 80s hair metal thing? Remember the numetal movement?

When you have old ladies singing "Let the bodies hit the floor" at karaoke night in their small town bars, you can consider that song a hit.

And again..labels don't sign bands that they think won't make them money. And when they have bands that are duds with pulling in cash they drop them from the label.

When you sign to a label it's like working a regular job. Your boss expects certain things of you and if you don't meet the expectations set forth that are designed to make the boss money, he fires you.

1. So is Macklemore not a professional musician? If he is, what label is he signed to, and, if not, what "job" does he have?
2. Let's define "hit." Collins Dictionary defines it as a pop song that sells well at release. I was under the general impression that a "hit" had to appear on a chart, such as Billboard Top 40 or Hot 100.
3. The 80's ended 30 years ago, though. Numetal ended nearly 25 years ago. That's what you consider recent? I don't think any label would be happy signing an artist if that artist went on to earn them no money for 20 years. You get what I'm saying?!
4. Different labels have different expectations. Why are you trying to tell me working as a musician is like working a job? Did I say otherwise? Seems out of left field.
5. Those old ladies singing "Bodies" at karaoke were probably young ladies the last time a metal song was on the Top 40 charts.

Oh and Vulgar Display Of Power went double platinum in just America alone. It went platinum and gold in other places. How's that not a hit record? It was on the Billboard 200 for 80 weeks.

Note my earlier point about metal bands making it financially because of albums, not songs?

Because people buy their albums. People buy their albums because of the dense character of the music they make. Not because they write catchy earworms. Even though people buy their albums, these bands probably don't make enough money from album sales to support themselves (it's even been discussed by Misha from Periphery here on this forum). They get endorsements. Do they get endorsements from hit songs? Maybe, but it's exceptionally rare if it ever works that way at all.

In case you missed it.

It seems like maybe we are arguing in agreement at this point.

I was only saying that you don't need to write a hit song to be a good musician.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

1. So is Macklemore not a professional musician? If he is, what label is he signed to, and, if not, what "job" does he have?
2. Let's define "hit." Collins Dictionary defines it as a pop song that sells well at release. I was under the general impression that a "hit" had to appear on a chart, such as Billboard Top 40 or Hot 100.
3. The 80's ended 30 years ago, though. Numetal ended nearly 25 years ago. That's what you consider recent? I don't think any label would be happy signing an artist if that artist went on to earn them no money for 20 years. You get what I'm saying?!
4. Different labels have different expectations. Why are you trying to tell me working as a musician is like working a job? Did I say otherwise? Seems out of left field.
5. Those old ladies singing "Bodies" at karaoke were probably young ladies the last time a metal song was on the Top 40 charts.


Note my earlier point about metal bands making it financially because of albums, not songs?

In case you missed it.

It seems like maybe we are arguing in agreement at this point.

I was only saying that you don't need to write a hit song to be a good musician.

Okay...I'm trying to watch my wording here because I don't want to come off as an ass but...what the hell are you talking about?

Do you know what the difference is between an amateur and professional? At the point where you are making money with your music and it is a business, you are a professional. I don't know much about Mackelmore. But yes he'd be a professional since he had a hit song that went through a label and all that. What do you think labels do? They hire musicians to make money. That's what a label is. It's the same as wanting to be a professional chef so you try to get employed by a big name restaurant.

A hit isn't just a pop song. Surely you can't believe that.

It doesn't matter how long ago the 80s was. Metal bands wrote hit songs then. I just pointed out two completely different eras in which metal bands made hit songs. Not only that but I ran off a list of songs that classify as hits as they're definitive songs that brought those bands to financial success. I don't even listen to modern metal so I have no clue what's being played on the radio and what's selling these days. When it happens doesn't matter...it's that it happens at all. Time has nothing to do with it.

Labels have different bottom line expectations on how much money a band should bring in. But labels make money by selling records. Labels aren't a charity organization. They hire bands that can bring in money. That's just simple music business stuff.

Do you not know how marketing works? I brought up the old lady at karaoke because it shows the broad range appeal of a song. At the point where you have people outside of your demographic who not only have heard your music but can sing it from memory, you have succeeded. That's what a single is SUPPOSED to do.

Am I not explaining this correctly? Am I misunderstanding where you're coming from? What is going on here because I'm genuinely confused as so what you're trying to get across here because from what I'm getting from it, you're not making a lick of sense.

Do you know what a single is? Bands release singles to an album to get people to buy the album. The ENTIRE purpose of a single is to be a commercial for the band. Singles that lead to albums going gold and platinum make for a hit record. That's pretty much the top of the tier in terms of a professional musician's goal for a good career.

 

[bostjan]

Mackelmore was never on a label.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Mackelmore was never on a label.

What does that have to do with anything?


Dude..just...we're gonna end it here. Because I can't even type all the things in my head I'd want to say right now.

 

[Mboogie7]

I used to believe that active pickups would somewhat resemble a noise gate . I thought “well, if they’re ‘active’ and run on batteries, then it’s gotta be like.. just the tightest sound you could possibly get”.

 

[Science_Penguin]

I used to believe that active pickups would somewhat resemble a noise gate . I thought “well, if they’re ‘active’ and run on batteries, then it’s gotta be like.. just the tightest sound you could possibly get”.

I mean... They're certainly among the quieter pickups I've ever used. Until you start playing them, of course.

 

[spudmunkey]

That a whammy bar functions not by pulling up or pushing down on the bar, but by spinning it.

That "distortion" comes from the guitar's controls. Pedals? What are those?

That hammer on and pull-offs aren't things, so if someone isn't picking a note and you hear one, they are fake playing.

That pointy guitars always sound distorted.

 

[Science_Penguin]

I honestly used to think "distortion" was just the "electric guitar sound' and "clean" was the "acoustic guitar sound."

And before I knew what a bass actually was, I assumed it was just an electric guitar, six strings and all, but instead of the "electric guitar sound" it had the "bass guitar sound" and when you turned that off, it played like an acoustic.

I was kind of a dumb kid.

 

[exo]

I don’t even know what happened in the last 5-6 posts.....

so, returning to the “real” about all this....I’m actually generally curious about the “what if’s” about people (Jon Schaffer among them) being in what would generally be considered “publicly accessible areas” of the Capitol Building while all the BS went down.....