US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

[zappatton2]

Then it's official, you cant read. Look at their "demands" section. Like they're in a position to demand anything! Don't make me laugh! Also they need to take MLK Jr off their site, they're the polar opposite of him and everyone that struggled alongside him.

The civil rights movement of the 60's was just as vilified then as BLM is now. And none of those demands are unreasonable, and absolutely find spirit in the struggle of MLK.

That has, without a doubt, been one of the most nauseating parts of 2020. This false ideas that anyone today is fighting the fight of the civil rights era. What a load of sh*t. If that's what people believe today, then never has there been a more privileged society so willing to feel oppressed. *yawn*

We can at least agree on this much. I see a lot of conservatives claiming to be "victims" every time they say something that can be easily discredited with facts, and people around them don't take them seriously.

Forever, the right has claimed that education, journalism, basically anything designed to "show your work" when drawing conclusions, is inherently liberal (you yourself characterized "fact-checkers" as liberal), and the fact that their talking points don't get equal access to same institutions, or that there are sometimes personal or professional consequences for aggressively spewing ignorance, as signs that their free speech and civil rights are under attack. It is bizarre to think that saying unserious things demands serious regard.

 

[mmr007]

Hmmmm, I've been called an idiot, a racist, a white supremacist, a nazi, a Trumper, QAnon, told i'm wrong (constantly?), and belittled from the start, but I'm the one "muddying waters"?

Also, @mbardu is clearly a voice of authority here. Whatever you do, don't disagree, or he'll just verbal vomit everywhere.

You set quite the aggressive tone in the original thread and let it carry over. Mbardu is not the voice of authority but seems to be the voice of reason and cogent argument so I like the posts. Again, I ask you instead of picking an online fight, present your case for some policy difference you are sure we have and lets discuss. I am open to all points of view as others here are too if presented properly

 

[mbardu]

Also, @mbardu is clearly a voice of authority here. Whatever you do, don't disagree, or he'll just verbal vomit everywhere.

Quite the opposite. The fact that most of the time, most people tend to disagree strongly with me around here should tell you that maybe us agreeing on some things now means you should maybe be a bit open minded and think about how you're coming across.

And like I and many people have now asked you, if you want to pick one topic for open minded good faith conservative discussion, go ahead. I'm sure you'd be surprised how not black-and-white the discussion can be.

 

[Bentaycanada]

The civil rights movement of the 60's was just as vilified then as BLM is now. And none of those demands are unreasonable, and absolutely find spirit in the struggle of MLK.

We can at least agree on this much. I see a lot of conservatives claiming to be "victims" every time they say something that can be easily discredited with facts, and people around them don't take them seriously.

Forever, the right has claimed that education, journalism, basically anything designed to "show your work" when drawing conclusions, is inherently liberal (you yourself characterized "fact-checkers" as liberal), and the fact that their talking points don't get equal access to same institutions, or that there are sometimes personal or professional consequences for aggressively spewing ignorance, as signs that their free speech and civil rights are under attack. It is bizarre to think that saying unserious things demands serious regard.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - MLK Jr

BLM believes in identity politics and "intersectionality" wherein you are only defined by you're immutable characteristics. Hence, the polar opposite of the civil rights movement.

 

[mbardu]

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - MLK Jr

BLM believes in "intersectionality" wherein you are only defined by you're immutable characteristics. Hence, the polar opposite of the civil rights movement.

BLM pushes some things too far, and a lot of affirmative-action-like policies in the US are pure BS. You should be judged on merit, not based on skin color.

However, today in America:

• POCs every day are negatively judged based on the color of their skin throughout all layers of society. Most visibly by law enforcement and the justice system, but pretty much everywhere from education to employment to housing.
• As a never-ending cycle due to the above, entire communities never get to be judged on their merits, ever, because they are kept down in a systemic way from birth to their deathbed.

So even though there's some wrong in what some people do on behalf of BLM (as usual, there's always problems in large groups of people), you can understand why a large portion of the population is pissed.

Give everyone actual equality of opportunity (less discrimination, more childcare and education) and equality of treatment (maybe don't have cops murder unarmed black men while letting white armed double murderers go back home to sleep in their bed one state away), people would be waaaaayyyyy less pissed off.

 

[mmr007]

Ok so when people say Black Lives Matter, many on the right (Giuliani included) state incorrectly that the motto is meant to identify a uniqueness in african americans that needs to be observed, some sort of special treatment because we don't have say....asian lives matter, white lives matter etc..... But none of those races are KILLED for no reason during routine traffic stops and what not. What they are stating is their lives matter AS MUCH AS OURS. Not more...and certainly not less so we must stop seeing black death by cop as a statistic that is part of daily life.

 

[mmr007]

Also, it is important to note that EVERY organization has undesirables in it. Does BLM have some bad eggs who may be vocal but don't speak for the overall goals of the organization? Yes, but even a prestigious organization that has total control over its members like the US armed forces has had murderers, terrorists and thugs in its ranks (Tim McVeigh Maj Hasan etc...) but that does not mean you should point to the US Armed forces and say that because they are imperfect and don't have perfect members that the whole organization should be thought of as a shit organization.

Same thing with Slayer...because they've always had Kerry King people say the whole band is shit, but that too is an unfair characterization of the contributions of the rest of the band/ JK BLM is no different. They are a diverse coalition trying to achieve one purpose...don't shoot unarmed black people and don't throw black athletes out of the NFL when they call you out on your callousness towards human life and dignity

 

[Bentaycanada]

BLM pushes some things too far, and a lot of affirmative-action-like policies in the US are pure BS. You should be judged on merit, not based on skin color.

However, today in America:

• POCs every day are negatively judged based on the color of their skin throughout all layers of society. Most visibly by law enforcement, but pretty much everywhere from education to housing.
• As a never-ending cycle due to the above, entire communities never get to be judged on their merits, ever because they are kept down in a systematic way from birth to their deathbed.

So even though there's some wrong in what some people do on behalf of BLM (as usual, there's always problems in large groups of people), you can understand why a large portion of the population is pissed.

Give everyone actual equality of opportunity (less discrimination, more childcare and education) and equality of treatment (maybe don't have cops murder unarmed black men while letting white armed double murderers go back home to sleep in their bed one state away), people would be waaaaayyyyy less pissed off.

Those statements are opinion, not fact. I'm a twice immigrant and have been called many names, and told to go back to my own country on numerous occasions. I don't blame that on any of my host countries. I've lived in the US on at least 3 periods on a J2 visa. There are always going to be bigots, racists, homophobes etc.... They are as common as a good neighbour. However, I do not believe that POC's are put upon at any rate by Western society. Many of the disparities we are told are because of "systemic racism" are just as easily explained through wealth disparity.

 

[mmr007]

Those statements are opinion, not fact. I'm a twice immigrant and have been called many names, and told to go back to my own country on numerous occasions. I don't blame that on any of my host countries. I've lived in the US on at least 3 periods on a J2 visa. There are always going to be bigots, racists, homophobes etc.... They are as common as a good neighbour. However, I do not believe that POC's are put upon at any rate by Western society. Many of the disparities we are told are because of "systemic racism" are just as easily explained through wealth disparity.

What you stated is also an opinion...your belief about systemic racism vs wealth disparity...and I am not attacking you. This is good. We all have opinions and based on our different experiences can learn from one another.

Let me tell you a short story...bear with me. Growing up in southern california my best friend was black. During the summer we lived at each others houses for weeks at a time. I grew up in affluent beach community El Segundo, my friend grew up a stones throw from the Watts towers. When my friend and I rode to the beach on our bikes nieghbors in MY town shouted the N word at my friend because El Segundo famously did not like black people in town. This was not southern mississippi in the '60s this was southern california in the '80s. I was so embarrased as this happened several times. My friend also told me a story about how LAPD was looking for a robbery suspect in his neighborhood and kicked down his door and kicked his mom in the head fracturing her skull and landing her in the hospital. All of my friends in El Segundo were white and none had a story of ESPD kicking their mom in the head and breaking her skull. That doesn't happen to moms in beach communities. Is my story proof of anything? Yes...my experience and more importantly my friend's experience shape what we are and how we view the world and it is different from how you may view it and we will fight to do what we believe will fix it.

 

[mbardu]

Those statements are opinion, not fact. I'm a twice immigrant and have been called many names, and told to go back to my own country on numerous occasions. I don't blame that on any of my host countries. I've lived in the US on at least 3 periods on a J2 visa. There are always going to be bigots, racists, homophobes etc.... They are as common as a good neighbour. However, I do not believe that POC's are put upon at any rate by Western society. Many of the disparities we are told are because of "systemic racism" are just a easily explained through wealth disparity.

What you say is interesting, because I'm also an immigrant into the US! Here's my experience. I have white skin, and will look Caucasian when clean shaven and hair cut short. But let that slide a week and with a beard and I look "middle eastern" now. Even with just a week of difference I can feel the difference of treatment. And that's living in a very liberal part of the country. Going on a roadtrip to places like Idaho I was literally insulted out in the open for no reason, I can't even imagine what the South must be like . I also arrived in the US at about the same time as an acquaintance of mine, who has way darker skin. They feel that treatment on a regular basis and don't have the luxury that I have to just shave that away.
Other anecdote: I was an immigrant to Asia before, two different countries, and come from Europe originally. Never seen anything close to the US.

But I don't even need to rely only on anecdotes or subjective things at the end of the day, because you're making the point of wealth/disparity. You know what, despite the point that even that argument hardly covers the whole picture (check all those reports/videos/anecdotes/stats of, controlling for other factors, POCs having worse service at high end places / lower estimates when appraising their houses / less success in job interviews etc etc) - where do you think wealth disparity come from in the first place? Segregation is not far from us, and since then, socioeconomic mobility has shrinked like crazy in the US. It doesn't impact only POCs of course, but if your grandparents were segregated against, discriminated against, denied opportunities, you are very unlikely to come out on top today, after a few generations. And that's through no fault of their own, the experience of many people who relate to BLM.

Give everyone actual equality of opportunity and equality of treatment and we'll see!

 

[StevenC]

Many of the disparities we are told are because of "systemic racism" are just as easily explained through wealth disparity.

Oh, I get it now. You're being facetious.

 

[TedEH]

*shrugs* you could be describing all most anyone according to liberal opinion.

I feel like you need some spend some time pondering the meaning of "strawman". Everything you keep saying about "liberals" is this constructed boogey-man made of up talking points and cherry picked extremes that people use to justify less-than-popular (to be nice about it) takes. I'm far from the most "liberal" person in the world (by what you probably think of as a liberal), and I've got a good number of "unpopular takes" of my own, but at some point you gatta step back and realize that there's a shit ton of stawmen being built up all over the internet in the last decade - and it's insanely easy to mischaracterize a whole group of people, or exaggerate the extremes, or be convinced by someone elses bad takes.

So you're saying "don't post if you don't adopt group-think". How very woke of you! *claps*

Dude, you're the one getting frustrated with opposing viewpoints. Everyone else here is doing exactly what you asked: discussing what you bring to the table. Nobody told you to stop posting. In fact, people constantly say they encourage diverse viewpoints.

 

[Mathemagician]

I will answer your points, I’m simply stating there’s a lot there, and I will get to them.

Also stop doing the conspiracy thing, we’re not all Trumpers, Proud Boys or QAnon. It’s beyond boring!

How many people were at the Capitol? 2000? Yeah, 2000 people out of 70+ million are really a problem. Not to mention they have all been arrested and charged. Unlike the 8 months of burning, looting and murdering, where the current VP tweeted ways to bail out rapists and criminals. Which was pushed to the extreme by your media zealots. Did you see the same from R? Nope. So stop.

Lastly, you need to stop using terms like “double standard”, “move the goalposts”. You don’t have the credentials to use them. Kind of like if you were for “Defund the police”, 911 should be cut off for you. It’s called actions have consequences, you’ll learn.

There was a cop beaten with an American flag. By Americans branding themselves as “patriots”. Meanwhile every single person has friends or family who were absolutely cheering for protests and for fighting “the libs”.

The “libs” being an ambiguous blob of people who want, Medicare expanded, a minimum wage that can pay for an apartment and groceries, and idk a functioning middle class?

Economic growth is built on consumerism, and people need to be healthy and have discretionary income in order to consume.

Ok...let me ask then...what do you want? I'm not asking in a condescending tone but genuine. What do you want, both in this thread and in your politics? You say you don't support Trump or Qanon but you seemingly despise liberals and got upset when they showed up in the now closed thread. So again, I ask, what do you want?

Pick an issue or two, not related to Trump, that you beileve that your views are being drowned out by liberals and liberal media and you would like your voice heard in the guitar community. I would gladly have a nonargumentative conversation with you (I may disagree but I will try to avoid argumentation). What do you know, that you wish we knew with your level of understanding that we can discuss?

Traditional small government, low taxes, limited international interference conservatives don’t go online to insult people. They typically have businesses to run. So you’re never going to hear an angry person online espouse any actual old-school conservative values.

It’s mostly just extreme fundamentalism and jingoism. At lost of “us versus them”. Where “them” is anyone who says improvements can be made.

Like, no picking a supreme court justice the last presidential year if it's a Democrat's year, but rushing it through if it's Trump? - Sounds like your issue is with the law, Dem's didn't have the votes before, and Reps did this time. Plus she's a fantastic judge. God knows we don't need more liberal activists pretending to be judges on the supreme court.


Like, subsidizing big farmers at the cost of taxpayer money because of a crisis the president's ego created, but refusing any support to the economy for "socialism" reasons as soon as it's liberals asking for it? - Holding China accountable in trade is going to be the fight going forward, especially with their rise as a super power. That said, Trump's plan was pretty awful.

Like worshiping a twice-divorced, proud adulterer, charity-defrauder, 7-sins incarnate fraudster as the savior of Christian values while shitting on a devout catholic who respects his fellow human and never misses church? - *shrugs* you could be describing all most anyone according to liberal opinion.

Like saying for a year that Covid is a nothingburger and will go away (if not a hoax altogether), or that it will be gone the moment Biden is there, but turning around to complain that it's now a terrible tragedy and that Biden has not fixed it yet? - Again, your Trump fascination is dull and tired.

Like wanting to secede from the union, pretending that federal assistance is unfair and goes to subsidize liberals (demonstrably false), but then going straight to the Feds for more aid (while you're already the biggest recipient of federal funds in the first place) when your state literally freezes over? - No idea what this is about. Cruz maybe? Who cares?

There you go, all answered for you. Happy?

1) By what metric is she a “good judge”? Other than this entire country being great because of all the progressive growth it’s been built on. Not having a monarchy and letting citizens vote was WILDLY progressive (even if it wasn’t everyone - yet).

How is having a fundamentalist inherently “better” than a moderate conservative, a moderate progressive, or a progressive candidate?

Like what is the metric? “Liberal activism” makes America great. People being able to move here and build a life is inherently progressive.

2) You are correct on the issue of the United States having to better plan around a China that has zero intention of anything less than becoming the worlds reserve currency. And trumps “plan” wasn’t a plan. It was just showboating for votes.

3) You know your response is in bad faith. You have seen the cult-like fervor with which people genuinely believe they are “fighting” for the prior president.

Meanwhile most moderates have no problem saying “Fuck Biden/Cuomo/anyone else”. They ain’t my friends. If they don’t pass good policy they won’t get another vote.

Still better than a worse option though.

4) You really like pretending to be “too cool” for anything that you can’t defend.

Do you really want someone like WuTangMan to link every single quote/tweet/news clip of a wide gamut of conservatives all downplaying the virus right up until they could skip the line for vaccines?


It is not and was never “just trump”

5) No need to talk about Cruz’s moderately embarrassing trip when we can talk about him being a vocal supporter of repeatedly disproven claims of voter fraud. That lead to 6 Americans dying unnecessarily.

Then it's official, you cant read. Look at their "demands" section. Like they're in a position to demand anything! Don't make me laugh! Also they need to take MLK Jr off their site, they're the polar opposite of him and everyone that struggled alongside him.

That has, without a doubt, been one of the most nauseating parts of 2020. This false ideas that anyone today is fighting the fight of the civil rights era. What a load of sh*t. If that's what people believe today, then never has there been a more privileged society so willing to feel oppressed. *yawn*

With zero sarcasm or anger, I can somewhat understand why some people refuse to accept that there are deeper underlying systemic issues. Because it’s not like your life was all roses and you never had to work yourself. So it “feels” bad when someone insinuates that you had privilege. Especially if you grew up broke AF too.

Honestly, if you’ve never seen or experienced the very different “lived experience” of minorities in this country then I can understand why someone telling you that the ramifications of 250 years of slavery, followed by 90 years of segregation still create a very different day-to-day experience. Even for two broke people from the same neighborhood.

I mean up until the 70’s women couldn’t even open a bank account by themselves.

Ignoring the long lasting effects of things like redlining, the defunding of all community activities and schools which help keep kids out of trouble is something a person has to do willingly. Because yes they affect everyone negatively, but they have consistently been shown to disproportionately affect minorities worse.

13% of the population is black, but 38% of prisoners are black. That statistic makes ZERO sense in a world where “everything is the same/equal”.

Hmmmm, I've been called an idiot, a racist, a white supremacist, a nazi, a Trumper, QAnon, told i'm wrong (constantly?), and belittled from the start, but I'm the one "muddying waters"?

Also, @mbardu is clearly a voice of authority here. Whatever you do, don't disagree, or he'll just verbal vomit everywhere, but apparently he disagrees with me that Roy Moore is gross. So well done!

I was going to say something snarky but I am genuinely trying to respond to your comments with polite answers to prompt discussion, not arguments.

You keep trying to sell a story of “getting ganged up on”. But there’s tons of conservatives on this forum and a bunch have likely blocked me.

But you’re the only one saying you’re mad about XYZ while trying to get people to only discuss the axe you want to grind.

 

[mbardu]

Oh, I get it now. You're being facetious.

This is just missing the "despite making up only 13% of the population" copypasta

 

[Bentaycanada]

Once again *broken record* how do I answer 5 posts in less than 5 mins?

 

[mbardu]

Once again *broken record* how do I answer 5 posts in less than 5 mins?

I believe in you. You can do it. I'm sending you all my "Kiesel Never Again" energy

 

[USMarine75]

You could siege the Capitol with the army of Strawmen @Bentaycanada has summoned.

 

[TedEH]

Once again *broken record* how do I answer 5 posts in less than 5 mins?

Nobody is expecting you to address every nitpick. It doesn't matter if you answer every little thing, if whatever you do come up with ends up being reasonable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bentaycanada]

What you say is interesting, because I'm also an immigrant into the US! Here's my experience. I have white skin, and will look Caucasian when clean shaven and hair cut short. But let that slide a week and with a beard and I look "middle eastern" now. Even with just a week of difference I can feel the difference of treatment. And that's living in a very liberal part of the country. Going on a roadtrip to places like Idaho I was literally insulted out in the open for no reason, I can't even imagine what the South must be like . I also arrived in the US at about the same time as an acquaintance of mine, who has way darker skin. They feel that treatment on a regular basis and don't have the luxury that I have to just shave that away.
Other anecdote: I was an immigrant to Asia before, two different countries, and come from Europe originally. Never seen anything close to the US.

But I don't even need to rely only on anecdotes or subjective things at the end of the day, because you're making the point of wealth/disparity. You know what, despite the point that even that argument hardly covers the whole picture (check all those reports/videos/anecdotes/stats of, controlling for other factors, POCs having worse service at high end places / lower estimates when appraising their houses / less success in job interviews etc etc) - where do you think wealth disparity come from in the first place? Segregation is not far from us, and since then, socioeconomic mobility has shrinked like crazy in the US. It doesn't impact only POCs of course, but if your grandparents were segregated against, discriminated against, denied opportunities, you are very unlikely to come out on top today, after a few generations. And that's through no fault of their own, the experience of many people who relate to BLM.

Give everyone actual equality of opportunity and equality of treatment and we'll see!

Yeah, everyone has a story. Great. Next.

The second part is leftist nonsense. You have no connection to any of the events that came before you, stop trying to make yourself sound oppressed. My mother fled a civil war at age 13, does that give me the right to say I'm oppressed because of what she went through? No, she went through it. Only she had that experience. Not me, not my dad, not my brother, not my sister. So when you have 15-35 year olds today pretending they were affected by past oppression that they were never present for, it's a joke. A pathetic joke.

 

[mbardu]

Yeah, everyone has a story. Great. Next.

The second part is leftist nonsense. You have no connection to any of the events that came before you, stop trying to make yourself sound oppressed. My mother fled a civil war at age 13, does that give me the right to say I'm oppressed because of what she went through? No, she went through it. Only she had that experience. Not me, not my dad, not my brother, not my sister. So when you have 15-35 year olds today pretending they were affected by past oppression that they were never present for, it's a joke. A pathetic joke.

Dude, you are the one who brings up the immigrant anecdote to make a point, yet someone replies with anecdote and you reject it? How is that good faith?

Especially to follow up with "here's my anecdote about my mother" and now anecdote is a valid point again? Which is it? Are you actually trying?