US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

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narad

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There's precedent that when some when random unfeasible-to-implement law exists in some part of the world, a website will just throw their hands up and block that location to avoid having to fight it. A good number of links that get posted in this thread need a workaround because they aren't visible from where I am. I'm pretty sure the ol 'hub is currently doing this to a number of states and countries that have been pushing for IDs. I assume because they know how bad an idea it is to actually implement the ID system, and because they know that the general public knows how to use VPNs at this point. While I don't think anyone is going to actually be able to accomlish blocking anyone meaningfully from raunchy internet stuff, I don't doubt that a fair number of politicians (and a fair number of conservative voters for that matter) don't understand the internet well enough to know that it's a poor choice of hill to die on.

But we're not even talking about actual raunchy stuff. We're talking about things like a planned parenthood website I assume. Wikipedia has basic knowledge of sex ed. National organizations like this: https://preventchildabuse.org/

These need to be blocked in order for it to affect children's ability to get information about what abuse is, such that the bill is protected abusers, as was stated previously here.
 

Xaios

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But we're not even talking about actual raunchy stuff. We're talking about things like a planned parenthood website I assume. Wikipedia has basic knowledge of sex ed. National organizations like this: https://preventchildabuse.org/

These need to be blocked in order for it to affect children's ability to get information about what abuse is, such that the bill is protected abusers, as was stated previously here.
We live in a world where Alabama's supreme court has legislated that unfertilized eggs in jars are legally children, and done so in a way that made it spectacularly evident that zero thought was put into potential blowback scenarios. The people ramming these kinds of laws through break Hanlon's Razor by embodying stupidity and malice in equal parts.

You really think Florida's court wouldn't play ball with the Christian Nationalist fascist morons too? I wish I had your confidence. They only seem to think far enough ahead to see how far they can wedge the door open for themselves, but can never seem to grasp what unexpected consequences they might unleash from the other side.
 

narad

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We live in a world where Alabama's supreme court has legislated that unfertilized eggs in jars are legally children, and done so in a way that made it spectacularly evident that zero thought was put into potential blowback scenarios. The people ramming these kinds of laws through break Hanlon's Razor by embodying stupidity and malice in equal parts.

You really think Florida's court wouldn't play ball with the Christian Nationalist fascist morons too? I wish I had your confidence. They only seem to think far enough ahead to see how far they can wedge the door open for themselves, but can never seem to grasp what unexpected consequences they might unleash from the other side.

The Florida appeals court already totally shot down DeSantis's last anti-left bill -- the consequences of which were much more limited than changing the way the entire state or country accesses the internet. And again, what is on the line here is young people using their own computers to access sexual education materials online. That's not in the bill, that's the speculative nightmare of what might be done here. Nothing to stop kids from using a friend's computer, a school computer, a library computer, or a number of technical workarounds to this problem. Nothing to stop kids from asking GPT these questions, or having the answers aggregated into Bing search. Nothing to stop webpages in other states from not complying or being out of the country entirely. Nothing to stop kids from using satellite internet services, or using the internet from another state, or talking to sex educators, or counselors.
 

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TedEH

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That's not in the bill
But it's also not not in the bill.

Nothing to stop kids from using a friend's computer, a school computer, a library computer, or a number of technical workarounds to this problem.
None of those things are solutions to needing an ID to access a website. I can't access your email by going to the library.

Again, nobody is claiming that THIS BILL will specifically block all the sex ed right now. The actual technical feasibility of implementing such a block is not also the point. The point is the attempt, which should be recognized for what it is, even if it's futile, and the idea that innocuous and impotent sounding bills today become the groundwork for bigger changes later.

But we're not even talking about actual raunchy stuff.
I was talking about actual raunchy stuff, because bans for those have already been implemented. Not talking about this bill specifically, but something that, in my perspective, parallels it. Edit: Also, because I think the whole point of the vague language thing is that it leaves the door open for anything at all to be classified as "raunchy internet stuff".
 
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RevDrucifer

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There was a similar accident with the Sunshine Skyway Bridge in Florida, and when rebuilding it they installed some big ass dolphins.

Yeah, Dade county is single handedly going to be the reason there’s a lot more focus on structural testing in the future. We just had our 25 and 40-year certifications for structural and electrical in our buildings and the engineers who do the inspections aren’t taking any chances signing off on anything possibly amiss after the parking garage and bridge collapses down there.

The parking garage incident was straight up negligence, they were notified that was going to be an issue and if I remember right, had multiple companies bid on the repairs but they didn’t want to spend the money. All from a leak.
 

narad

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None of those things are solutions to needing an ID to access a website. I can't access your email by going to the library.
You're gonna need an ID to get to wikipedia in Florida?

Again, nobody is claiming that THIS BILL will specifically block all the sex ed right now. The actual technical feasibility of implementing such a block is not also the point. The point is the attempt, which should be recognized for what it is, even if it's futile, and the idea that innocuous and impotent sounding bills today become the groundwork for bigger changes later.


I was talking about actual raunchy stuff, because bans for those have already been implemented. Not talking about this bill specifically, but something that, in my perspective, parallels it.

I mean, that's kind of your take. And it also ignores how commonplace it is for bills not to get precise at the state level. This is why bills take forever to pass at the federal level when you actually have two parties arguing over exactly the scope each proposal and making deals around it. At the state level, that's not how it works, and it's not new. It's weird to single this bill out like this is unprecedented.

My take has always been that doesn't matter and it is absolutely wrong to call it a bill that defends pedos/abusers when it is not in the bill nor follows directly from omissions in the bill.
 

StevenC

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The Florida appeals court already totally shot down DeSantis's last anti-left bill -- the consequences of which were much more limited than changing the way the entire state or country accesses the internet. And again, what is on the line here is young people using their own computers to access sexual education materials online. That's not in the bill, that's the speculative nightmare of what might be done here. Nothing to stop kids from using a friend's computer, a school computer, a library computer, or a number of technical workarounds to this problem. Nothing to stop kids from asking GPT these questions, or having the answers aggregated into Bing search. Nothing to stop webpages in other states from not complying or being out of the country entirely. Nothing to stop kids from using satellite internet services, or using the internet from another state, or talking to sex educators, or counselors.
The bill uses the phrase "prurient interests" which is a specific term that has been argued about for decades in American law. If they wanted to talk specifically about pornography, they would have invoked obscenity and the Miller test. They didn't use those words, and one would assume lawmakers known for making laws that limit access to sex education might have done this knowingly.

In other states that have enacted laws that specify pornography have had sites simply stop serving those states. The likely outcome here is that websites like Wikipedia will have to fight the law to stay active, get sued if they don't add age verification, or remove access for Floridians.

The tactic in the last few years by Republicans has been to pass restrictive laws and sue people who violate the until they stop service in that region. This has been the case for abortion and contraceptives already.

No one is saying this is unprecedented. In fact, I'm saying this bill is the norm, they've done this before to target the same things, and they know what will happen.
 

TedEH

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You're gonna need an ID to get to wikipedia in Florida?
The more likely outcome is that they'd flag content as "objectionable" and just block it. There's already some content from Wikipedia blocked in some regions. That's not novel. It already happens.
 

narad

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The more likely outcome is that they'd flag content as "objectionable" and just block it. There's already some content from Wikipedia blocked in some regions. That's not novel. It already happens.

Blocking is easy. Restricting access to certain people is not.
 

narad

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Yes, which is why they'll just block it. Which is what I've been saying the whole time.

Not realistic. These aren't porn sites. They're general purpose sites whose content would be very difficult to pin down as being in violation of these terms.

Again, there is an open wager on my part that this won't happen. Anyone who thinks Florida is going to block wikipedia and similar sites for everyone in the state because of this one open-ended clause, please take me up on it.
 

MetalDestroyer

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Not realistic. These aren't porn sites. They're general purpose sites whose content would be very difficult to pin down as being in violation of these terms.

Again, there is an open wager on my part that this won't happen. Anyone who thinks Florida is going to block wikipedia and similar sites for everyone in the state because of this one open-ended clause, please take me up on it.
How about the state of Florida taking legal action against sites that don't comply? Are you willing to take that bet?

Since Roe was overturned we've had women face trials for miscarriages. Florida and DeSantis are notorious for their lawsuits. If you really think they don't intend to use the bill as the rest of us think they will, it's a safe bet for you.
 

TedEH

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Anyone who thinks Florida is going to block wikipedia and similar sites for everyone in the state because of this one open-ended clause, please take me up on it.
You're arguing against something I didn't say. I did not say this bill will make Florida block Wikipedia. What I DID way was that this bill sets the precedent that we have no problem with people setting the groundwork for more egregious vague legal speak that would have the potential to force Wikipedia, not Florida, to self-block some of its content for fear of legal repercussions, not the whole website, which is a thing they already do for some regions.
 

DrewH

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Yeah, Dade county is single handedly going to be the reason there’s a lot more focus on structural testing in the future. We just had our 25 and 40-year certifications for structural and electrical in our buildings and the engineers who do the inspections aren’t taking any chances signing off on anything possibly amiss after the parking garage and bridge collapses down there.

The parking garage incident was straight up negligence, they were notified that was going to be an issue and if I remember right, had multiple companies bid on the repairs but they didn’t want to spend the money. All from a leak.
Are you referring to Champain South Tower? That wasn't a parking garage. It was an 11 story building. That building was borked from the start. The official NIST Report will not be out for another year but preliminary findings are the general contractor deviated from the design drawings when constructing the pool deck, which is what failed first. Inadequate number of reinforcing bars in the concrete per what was spec'd. Yeah, the pitiful condition of the building and poor maintenance over decades hastened it's demise. But, if constructed properly, the building very well may have survived long enough to be repaired and reinforced.

The NIST official report will tell all. They are excellent at these investigations.
 

Randy

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Florida is going to block wikipedia and similar sites for everyone in the state
Total strawman argument.

What teenager is going to wikipedia to educate themselves about sex or, more importantly, issues like gender affirming therapy? We're more likely talking about sites that are specialized information for teenagers about sex and gender issues that would be VERY easy to flag.
 

narad

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How about the state of Florida taking legal action against sites that don't comply? Are you willing to take that bet?

Since Roe was overturned we've had women face trials for miscarriages. Florida and DeSantis are notorious for their lawsuits. If you really think they don't intend to use the bill as the rest of us think they will, it's a safe bet for you.

Take the bet that Florida will use the language of this bill to extend it to include authentication as necessary for 13-14 year olds to access sites containing sex education content, and then additionally take legal action against the sites that don't comply (many of which won't even be in the US)? You bet I'd take that bet.
 

MetalDestroyer

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Take the bet that Florida will use the language of this bill to extend it to include authentication as necessary for 13-14 year olds to access sites containing sex education content, and then additionally take legal action against the sites that don't comply (many of which won't even be in the US)? You bet I'd take that bet.
OK 1 year timeline, if I win you have to proxy me a guitar and if you win you get the equivalent shipping cost
 

narad

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OK 1 year timeline, if I win you have to proxy me a guitar and if you win you get the equivalent shipping cost
1 year timeline you will hopefully not want to proxy a guitar because I am praying the yen finally recovers to some extent so I can stop feeling bad about my income.

But yea, I can't tell if this just joking around but if not then we have to clarify terms. I was originally throwing out the bet thinking that there are websites that handle these sorts of informal wagers for you, but now I don't see any.
 

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The ship in Baltimore was 95,000 tons going at 9mph. In a blunt impact scenario, most bridges will not survive that. What designers do now is to eliminate the blunt impact scenario the best they can. If you look at a lot of new bridge foundations in areas with heavy boat/ship traffic, they are shaped to deflect ships to one side or the other. Example below. Sometimes a designer will actually set the bridge supports on an artificial island which is very soft compared to concrete and will easily absorb the impact of a ship that runs into it . As previously mentioned, there are the dolphin structures which can be placed as well.

View attachment 141148
NPR stated that the pillars had been inspected and weren't in great shape. Also, they were designed when the ships were smaller and were expected to be able to drop anchor(s) and if not stop, slow down enough that a direct hit to a pillar would not be with "much" force. But with pillars in questionable shape and ships WAY larger now, easy for a ship to take out the bridge. Also the ship in question had a collision in 2016: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...timore-bridge-collapse-ship-dali/73105394007/
 
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Randy

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I'm not the biggest fan of Biden proclaiming the same day as the strike that the federal government is going to pay the bill for the entire cleanup and rebuild.

The shipping company and the state/local government are off the hook for their negligence? Who was that toll money being paid to?
 
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