What notes do you get when you pick behind the nut?

[octatoan]

In the book Kitharologus, the author makes mention of this extended technique whre you fret, say, 10-10-12 with your middle, ring and pinky on the lowest three strings and strum them with your thumb (or a pick, doesn't matter) while plucking behind the fingerrs (i.e. between your LH fingers and the nut) with the LH index.

What notes are these? I'd guess these are not "standard" chromatic notes. Does anyone know or can you calculate?

 

[Lokasenna]

Are they even audible? A good nut should keep most, if not all, of the vibration from making it down to your pickups.

 

[VBCheeseGrater]

Are they even audible? A good nut should keep most, if not all, of the vibration from making it down to your pickups.

Sounds like he means picking between the nut and the freted notes, so not behind the nut (even though says it in title).

I don't know how those can be calculated. The ones actually behind the nut are going to be kinda random depending on your string tension and length from nut to tuner post or string retainer. I think (but may be wrong) Adam Jones uses that technique in Eulogy - sounds like it at least.

 

[octatoan]

Are they even audible? A good nut should keep most, if not all, of the vibration from making it down to your pickups.

Acoustic, sir, acoustic. And I'm playing those notes deliberately.

 

[Alberto7]

Are they even audible? A good nut should keep most, if not all, of the vibration from making it down to your pickups.

If the pickups are sensitive enough, and depending on the amount of gain, the pickups will pick up the vibrations. That's why Gruvgear FretWraps exist, and, before that, a lot of artists kept hairbands behind the nut; to dampen those vibrations. (I still keep the hairbands, because I can't be bothered to spend the money on FretWraps)

As far as which notes it produces on the other side (between LH and nut)... well, it'd be harder to tell. Imagine the fretboard, but backwards, with the 1st fret beginning at the bridge and the 21st/22nd/24th (etc.) right behind the nut. Most of the actual frets will probably fall between any of these imaginary fret spaces, so you'll most likely get microtones. Also, I can't do the math off the top of my head, but at least one of those imaginary frets will coincide with the real frets, producing a natural note on the other side, and another natural note on the proper (picking) side. Such is the case with the 12th fret; you'll get the same tone wherever you pick.

I don't know if that made any sense.

 

[AugmentedFourth]

It sounds like you are talking about picking behind your left hand, not behind the nut.

When you do this, you will likely get a crappy sound out of it since the fretboard is not designed to facilitate this and the frets will deaden the sound or make it squeaky or inaudible entirely in some cases.

But the notes are just regular, chromatic stuff you get from fretting normally, To figure out the note you are playing, take the space you are fretting (the space in between frets) with your left hand and then flip it over the fretboard, using the 12th fret (not the space between, but the actual metal bar) as the axis of reflection. So if you fret the 10th fret-space and pick behind your LH, you are getting the note normally produced by fretting the 15th fret and picking in the normal place (between the LH and bridge).

Fret | Sounds like
13     12
12     13
11     14
10     15
9      16

etc...

 

[Hollowway]

You mean like in the taint area?

 

[Winspear]

It sounds like you are talking about picking behind your left hand, not behind the nut.

When you do this, you will likely get a crappy sound out of it since the fretboard is not designed to facilitate this and the frets will deaden the sound or make it squeaky or inaudible entirely in some cases.

But the notes are just regular, chromatic stuff you get from fretting normally, To figure out the note you are playing, take the space you are fretting (the space in between frets) with your left hand and then flip it over the fretboard, using the 12th fret (not the space between, but the actual metal bar) as the axis of reflection. So if you fret the 10th fret-space and pick behind your LH, you are getting the note normally produced by fretting the 15th fret and picking in the normal place (between the LH and bridge).

Fret | Sounds like
13     12
12     13
11     14
10     15
9      16

etc...

Are you sure about this? I don't have a guitar to hand right now to check properly but I'm almost entirely confident that you get microtonal pitches often completely out of 12EDO. It makes sense for that to be the case if we look at how the frets are dividing that new, shorter scale length. They wouldn't be accurate for 12EDO notes at all. Random pitches defined by gauge+sounding string length. If we then consider that the 'open' pitch and play with the frets in that area they aren't related to it like our typical system.

 

[AugmentedFourth]

Are you sure about this? I don't have a guitar to hand right now to check properly but I'm almost entirely confident that you get microtonal pitches often completely out of 12EDO. It makes sense for that to be the case if we look at how the frets are dividing that new, shorter scale length. They wouldn't be accurate for 12EDO notes at all. Random pitches defined by gauge+sounding string length. If we then consider that the 'open' pitch and play with the frets in that area they aren't related to it like our typical system.

No, you're right. If the guitar I have on hand didn't have intonation problems I might have noticed that the mirror thing is only an approximation. Of course, as you get closer to the nut the pitch starts jumping by higher intervals. I don't think it's random pitches, though. Since the frets get larger as the pitches get higher (as opposed to what normally happens where they get smaller to line up with an equal division of the octave), it's obviously not EDO at all. someone could hack around and figure out the exact pitches, I'm sure.

 

[Given To Fly]

Are you sure about this? I don't have a guitar to hand right now to check properly but I'm almost entirely confident that you get microtonal pitches often completely out of 12EDO. It makes sense for that to be the case if we look at how the frets are dividing that new, shorter scale length. They wouldn't be accurate for 12EDO notes at all. Random pitches defined by gauge+sounding string length. If we then consider that the 'open' pitch and play with the frets in that area they aren't related to it like our typical system.

The pitches are not random, in fact there are consistent relationships between frets/strings depending on where you stop the strings, but you are right that the result is not 12EDO and the microtones.

No, you're right. If the guitar I have on hand didn't have intonation problems I might have noticed that the mirror thing is only an approximation. Of course, as you get closer to the nut the pitch starts jumping by higher intervals. I don't think it's random pitches, though. Since the frets get larger as the pitches get higher (as opposed to what normally happens where they get smaller to line up with an equal division of the octave), it's obviously not EDO at all. someone could hack around and figure out the exact pitches, I'm sure.

People have. Two composers that have made extensive use of playing on the "back side" of the string are Helmut Oehring and Simon Steen Andersen. Oehring wrote a major work called Foxfire Eins and Simon Steen Andersen has actually transcribed a short Bach piece meant to played on the clavichord but works on "back side of the string" guitar because the dynamic range is roughly the same as well as the timbre.

Good stuff.

 

[octatoan]

To everyone talking about pickups and whatnot, I play an (unamplified) acoustic.

Also, I learned about this while reading Kitharologus, Apparently Heitor VIlla-Lobos' Etude No. 2 calls for it at the end (Given To Fly, you're a classical guitarist, do you know anything about this?) and Stanley Yates' website confirms this -- but it's missing from all the YouTube performances I've just seen. (Or am I missing something?)

Here's a little fretboard diagram I made (by misusing FretFind2D!)

It seems that first fret corresponds to three (or four?) octaves plus a whole tone up.

People have. Two composers that have made extensive use of playing on the "back side" of the string are Helmut Oehring and Simon Steen Andersen. Oehring wrote a major work called Foxfire Eins and Simon Steen Andersen has actually transcribed a short Bach piece meant to played on the clavichord but works on "back side of the string" guitar because the dynamic range is roughly the same as well as the timbre.
Good stuff.

Link, link, link.

Edit: Foxfire Eins: Ein Natriumpentothal? Sodium thiopental? Interesting. Can't find a video though.
Also, you're really into contemporary classical, aren't you?

Edit 2: The Beloved Brother caprice?

 

[Given To Fly]

To everyone talking about pickups and whatnot, I play an (unamplified) acoustic.

Also, I learned about this while reading Kitharologus, Apparently Heitor VIlla-Lobos' Etude No. 2 calls for it at the end (Given To Fly, you're a classical guitarist, do you know anything about this?) and Stanley Yates' website confirms this -- but it's missing from all the YouTube performances I've just seen. (Or am I missing something?)

I have never heard Etude No.2 played with anything other than fast arpeggios and I do not have the score to check. However, if no one uses this technique it may have been edited out of later editions of the score.

[/QUOTE]Link, link, link.

Edit: Foxfire Eins: Ein Natriumpentothal? Sodium thiopental? Interesting. Can't find a video though.
Also, you're really into contemporary classical, aren't you?

Edit 2: The Beloved Brother caprice?[/QUOTE]

No links, sorry. But yes, those are the pieces I was referring to.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Kitten riveting stuff right here!

I dick around with this technique quite a lot but knew not a thing about it, so I am by no means being sarcastic when I say so.