Wound vs plain string tension

[ixlramp]

could you derive a similar formula for equal floppiness (tension "feel") from pitch/guage to pitch/guage?

No, too complex.
My personal preference of a basically progressive set, plus fine tweaks, is the result of lots of experimentation and trial and error, and is a combination of many things: the behaviour of multiple guitar techniques, similar pitch bending ability, etc.

 

[ixlramp]

I tested a strandberg with 10s. That was a 25” 010 with 15.5 lbs tension. I found bending easier on this than my 27” 009 with 14.7 lbs tension. What gives?

To raise pitch by a certain amount, you need to raise tension by a certain amount. A string with a thicker 'core' (where a plain is 'all core') has higher 'stretching stiffness', so requires less stretch to raise tension by a certain amount, and so requires less 'string bend distance' to raise pitch by a certain amount.
(As far as i understand.)
Perhaps this is what you noticed, and perhaps this is what you mean by 'easier'?

could you derive a similar formula for equal floppiness (tension "feel") from pitch/guage to pitch/guage?

A better answer:
Seems complex. I do not know how to approach that with mechanics, but maybe someone else could.
The mechanics of my 'floppy rule' does not deal with string mass, it assumes both strings are of similar pitch and very approximately similar mass, to simplify the approach and remove the effect of mass on floppiness.

 

[ixlramp]

Now some questions for you ...
What guitar are you ordering? What brand of strings are you choosing gauges from?

With your current guitar, have you yet gone through the process of trial-and-error experimentation to find your optimum custom gauges? I get the impression you do not know what string tensions you like? You cannot design a set for the new guitar by theory, the only way is to discover what you like first and then transfer that as best you can to the new guitar.

 

[jyym]

Now some questions for you ...
What guitar are you ordering? What brand of strings are you choosing gauges from?

With your current guitar, have you yet gone through the process of trial-and-error experimentation to find your optimum custom gauges? I get the impression you do not know what string tensions you like? You cannot design a set for the new guitar by theory, the only way is to discover what you like first and then transfer that as best you can to the new guitar.

What I did is print out my string tension calculations and took notes while I played a strandberg 6 and strandberg 7 at a local store, in standard and tuned down to Eb (took my tuner to the store). I calculated the tensions of the stock strandbergs and also had those printed out. Ultimately I decided on the 10s set I referenced above, tuned down a half step, NYXL (so actual tensions on wounds will be slightly lower than predicted by string tension sensei). I combined my experiences on the lower strings of the 7 with the higher strings of the 6 to arrive at my conclusion. I have a straight scale 8 string and will be getting Aristides h/06.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Same gauge as what? Twice as heavy as what? ... a plain steel of the same gauge?

yes same gauge as a 13.5 plain steel

 

[Oscar Stern]

Because wound Strings have less tension than plain steel strings of the same gauge, the Wound Strings would generally break less as the tension is less, & bending would be easier as less tension means easier to bend. I think there's a lot of really old outdated information that needs updates ASAP.

 

[Oscar Stern]

A Wound B String was used by no other musician than the great Eddie Lang

 

[Winspear]

Because wound Strings have less tension than plain steel strings of the same gauge, the Wound Strings would generally break less as the tension is less, & bending would be easier as less tension means easier to bend. I think there's a lot of really old outdated information that needs updates ASAP.

The core is significantly thinner and it's the core that will be the failure point for tension. The two at the same gauge aren't really comparable anyway, as you'd typically gauge for tension, not...gauge. A more flexible wound string isn't a benefit because if you're happy with the lesser tension, you could have just used a thinner (and stronger) plain string. Though wound is certainly nice for tone

 

[ixlramp]

This is a 13.5 Gauge String tuned to a C3, rather than a C4. Even though it's the same gauge the Wrap wire makes it twice as heavy.

yes same gauge as a 13.5 plain steel

I doubt this wound is twice as heavy as a plain of the same gauge.
As far as i know Garry uses steel wrap wire, not plutonium
A wound has air gaps so actually has less material, and the windings do not occupy the entire volume of the string, so the wrap wire would have to be well over twice as dense as steel (literally plutonium, platinum or similar) to double the string mass.
If steel is used for core and wrap wire, a wound of the same gauge has less mass.

Because wound Strings have less tension than plain steel strings of the same gauge

^ Here you get it right.

 

[ixlramp]

Because wound Strings have less tension than plain steel strings of the same gauge, the Wound Strings would generally break less as the tension is less

No. A wound has a thin core. Compared to a plain of the same gauge, the core would be very approximately 1/2 the gauge, 1/4 the cross-sectional area, so 1/4 the tensile strength.
O4P's high strength steel is only a little stronger than typical core wire steel, not 4 times stronger, so even an O4P wound string would have much lower tensile strength.

& bending would be easier as less tension means easier to bend.

Besides, players require a particular tension for a string, they do not suddenly accept a lower tension for a string.
So they would use a slightly larger gauge if using a wound instead of a plain, but it would still have lower tensile strength.
For a particular required tension, a wound will always have less tensile strength, even with special high-strength steel core wire.

I think there's a lot of really old outdated information that needs updates ASAP.

This may generally be true, but in this case, you have got this wrong, and you get things very wrong very often in your posts (but that is fine).

 

[jvms]

Before going the Evertune and True Temperament route, I used an NYXL 10-52 string set in standard tunning and replaced the g string for a 0.18 wound one cause plain G strings have terrible intonation. There was so much more tention! Very difficult to bend! Sounded so much better for chords but lead playing with bends was very difficult. I still recommend it if you are going to play only rhythm guitar or if you can get used to the more difficult bends.

 

[Winspear]

Before going the Evertune and True Temperament route, I used an NYXL 10-52 string set in standard tunning and replaced the g string for a 0.18 wound one cause plain G strings have terrible intonation. There was so much more tention! Very difficult to bend! Sounded so much better for chords but lead playing with bends was very difficult. I still recommend it if you are going to play only rhythm guitar or if you can get used to the more difficult bends.

An 18w actually has less tension than an 18p (actually less than a 17p even!) but no doubt it is more difficult to bend in terms of physical distance travelled for a pitch change (which seems to feel more physically challenging than the actual tension change)

 

[ixlramp]

^ Yes, Winspear is correct in the previous post. The wound .018 has a very thin core, so has a much lower 'stretching stiffness' than the plain .017, so requires much more stretching (more string bend distance) for the same pitch change. The tensions will be similar.

 

[ixlramp]

After watching the Stringjoy balanced tension video, I became very interested in exploring their assertion that, for a balanced "feel" set, the plain strings and wound strings should be about 2-4 lbs apart. That is, a 3 plain 3 wound set might have a tension of 13 lbs for all 3 plain strings, and 16 for all wound strings. What are your thoughts on that concept in general

I rewatched that video, all the technical understanding in the video seems correct to me.

I retract that, the 'all' should be 'most of'.

At 2:45 in the Stringjoy 'What Are Balanced Tension Guitar Strings?' video, Scott states a 'general rule of thumb' that is 'a little more tension on the wound strings than on the plain strings' because 'wound strings are more flexible than plains'.

But this is only correct at the transition between wound and plain, and only applies to choosing the 2 adjacent strings at the transition.

The video implies that the whole set is designed from this rule of thumb, resulting in all wounds at equal tension and all plains at an equal tension and lower tension than the wounds. This makes no sense.
The video also implies that any wound is a little more flexible than any plain, and that a small tension difference will make any wound-plain pair feel similar. This is incorrect.

Actually, the stiffness of strings in a set, from low to high, starts high, falls across the wounds, jumps back up at the thickest plain, then falls again across the plains.

I am a fan of Scott, he really knows the technical aspects, so i suspect this might be an oversimplification done for the video, but it is misleading. It is also very relevant to your question.
How tension varies across the wounds, and across the plains, is a separate consideration. Generally and approximately, Stringjoy choose equal tensions for each string type, while some other people prefer a slight 'progressive tension' across each string type.

 

[ixlramp]

In addition to 'the principle of progressive tension', and the higher stiffness of the plain at the transition, there is a third good reason to drop tension from wound to plain.
I find that equal tensions at the transition results in the plain being a little too loud and bright. I find that lowering its tension reduces its volume and softens the tone, for a better tonal blend with the wounds.

 

[Oscar Stern]

No. A wound has a thin core. Compared to a plain of the same gauge, the core would be very approximately 1/2 the gauge, 1/4 the cross-sectional area, so 1/4 the tensile strength.
O4P's high strength steel is only a little stronger than typical core wire steel, not 4 times stronger, so even an O4P wound string would have much lower tensile strength.

Besides, players require a particular tension for a string, they do not suddenly accept a lower tension for a string.
So they would use a slightly larger gauge if using a wound instead of a plain, but it would still have lower tensile strength.
For a particular required tension, a wound will always have less tensile strength, even with special high-strength steel core wire.


This may generally be true, but in this case, you have got this wrong, and you get things very wrong very often in your posts (but that is fine).

Strings that have less tension would be less likely to break as you're not putting as much stress on the string. The thing w/ wound strings as thin as .009w etc is that they need to have less tension than plain steel strings but also be more tensile to reduce brekage. I think if they use super advanced technology things would work better. Thomastik makes the KF110 Flatwound Acoustic set w/ Wound 3rd & 2nd strings that sound amazing & they use super advanced technology. Wound Strings that are as thin as Plain steel strings w/ less tension are common on bowed instruments. That's taken from technology for bowed instruments since they commonly use all wound strings.

 

[Oscar Stern]

To keep things running smoothly I've had this idea of making Treble Wound Strings have less tension than the Plain Steel Trebles but a higher tensile strength core wire. Wound Bass Strings have a lower tensile strength Core wire because they're tuned to a lower pitch so that they're flexible, but as we get to Treble Strings their core needs to have more tensile strength to minimize the breakage.

 

[Oscar Stern]

To keep things running smoothly I've wanted to make the Treble Wound Strings have less tension than the Plain Steel Trebles but a higher tensile strength core wire

Do let us know how that 17w holds up in A, I am curious

Mine actually works & the Thomastik 14w designed to tune up to a B3 holds up to that pitch.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Wait a minute, there's a company called "Thomastik Infeld" & they make the KR116 Flatwound Classical Guitar String set. They have all Wound Strings, but their Core is a Steel Rope. The Treble Strings are Nylon Tape Wound & the Bass Strings are Silver-plated Copper Flat Wound. They use a Rope core because it makes the strings more flexible but at the same time have a higher tensile strength:https://www.thomannmusic.com/thomastik_kr116.htm so what if super thin wound strings 16w & thinner had a rope-core? I think a rope core would give you more flexibility & a higher tensile strength.

 

[Winspear]

Wait a minute, there's a company called "Thomastik Infeld" & they make the KR116 Flatwound Classical Guitar String set. They have all Wound Strings, but their Core is a Steel Rope. The Treble Strings are Nylon Tape Wound & the Bass Strings are Silver-plated Copper Flat Wound. They use a Rope core because it makes the strings more flexible but at the same time have a higher tensile strength:https://www.thomannmusic.com/thomastik_kr116.htm so what if super thin wound strings 16w & thinner had a rope-core? I think a rope core would give you more flexibility & a higher tensile strength.

Just remember they aren't magnetic so you can't use them on electric
I've used these however. They are extremely nice strings and my acoustic strings of choice. I like both sets - one set is kind of intended to make classicals more like a steel string, the other intended to make steel strings more like a classical - that's the one I like. I can't remember which is which right now but it's pretty obvious from the contained material details.

I agree having a wound third run slightly less tension than the plains can be good to ease up the harder bending issue. I think a lot of the bending difficulty given it has to travel a larger distance, actually comes from the fact that you have to start moving the other strings next to it more, too.