The Carvin / Kiesel thread

[bracky]

The virtual builder will result in more returned guitars. They can’t possibly look exactly like what the builder shows. Some folks can’t accept that.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

The virtual builder will result in more returned guitars. They can’t possibly look exactly like what the builder shows. Some folks can’t accept that.

Is that something that happens IRL?

Do companies that provide virtual builders deal with higher return rates?

 

[bigcupholder]

The virtual builder will result in more returned guitars. They can’t possibly look exactly like what the builder shows. Some folks can’t accept that.

I would guess the opposite. The scenario you mentioned should be eclipsed by the builder helping people spec out a nice cohesive design. The builder should be better than people imagining option combinations, especially considering the lack of consistent or easily accessible pictures they have for their options/finishes now.

 

[mbardu]

Is that something that happens IRL?

Do companies that provide virtual builders deal with higher return rates?

The question is a bit moot.
Kiesel does offers a policy of no-questions-asked return on most custom builds.
Others brands do not, virtual builder or not. Their return rate is by definition 0 .

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Others brands do not, virtual builder or not. Their return rate is by definition 0 .

I've seen you say this a lot, and as someone who has worked at and with dealers for custom instruments from a large range of builders, it's not entirely accurate to say "0", not by a long shot.

 

[mbardu]

I've seen you say this a lot, and as someone who has worked at and with dealers for custom instruments from a large range of builders, it's not entirely accurate to say "0", not by a long shot.

It's not me saying it. All the other examples quoted above (Balaguer, Halo, or the Dealers for Custom ESPs/TAs/Suhrs etc), it's the builder or dealer explicitly saying that they have a 0-return policy on anything custom. It's right there on their websites and order forms.

Not saying exceptions never happen - that's being facetious of course. I'll take that back if you want. I'm sure there have been exception cases of a dealer taking back something. But if there are such returns, then as matter of policy (unlike Kiesel) they certainly are exceptions, not the rule. And I know you have way more experience than I'll ever have, know the industry well, and could easily get on the good side of a dealer....but that's far from everyone, and at least as far as I'm concerned, I have never seen anything close to "no questions asked".

 

[MaxOfMetal]

It's not me saying it. All the other examples quoted above (Balaguer, Halo, or the Dealers for Custom ESPs/TAs/Suhrs etc), it's the builder or dealer explicitly saying that they have a 0-return policy on anything custom. It's right there on their websites and order forms.

Not saying exceptions never happen - that's being facetious of course. I'll take that back if you want. I'm sure there have been exception cases of a dealer taking back something. But if there are such returns, then as matter of policy (unlike Kiesel) they certainly are exceptions, not the rule. And I know you have way more experience than I'll ever have, know the industry well, and could easily get on the good side of a dealer....but that's far from everyone, and at least as far as I'm concerned, I have never seen anything close to "no questions asked".

The only return I've never seen on that list is Balaguer, and that's probably because of how new/small they are.

Is it "no question" of course not. But I've see some pretty expensive, and objectively perfect, guitars returned over "color isn't just right" or "the flame isn't really AAAAA" or "I thought ebony was supposed to be black" stuff like that.

The thing is, with most of these custom builders, they live and die by reputation and in the age of the internet, it's often better to let the return/exchange happen. Not to mention the return rates are very very small, there just aren't a lot of folks who invest a year plus and upwards of three or four grand to just walk away. Will folks do that? I'm sure there's some rich asshole who does that for fun.

Kiesel though, where you're talking a matter of weeks, builds much lower in price, and plainly the fact that it's many folks' first custom or even first "nice" guitar, and you likely have a better shot of someone changing thier minds.

What is the return rate on Kiesels?

 

[_MonSTeR_]

In the UK, we have statutory rights and "The Consumer Rights Act 2015" which basically means if I order something and it turns out wrong, custom or not, the seller has to take a return, so if I order a blue guitar and they ship a green guitar, "0-returns" or not, i'm getting my money back.

Does this sort of thing have a parallel in the US?

 

[spudmunkey]

In the UK, we have statutory rights and "The Consumer Rights Act 2015" which basically means if I order something and it turns out wrong, custom or not, the seller has to take a return, so if I order a blue guitar and they ship a green guitar, "0-returns" or not, i'm getting my money back.

Does this sort of thing have a parallel in the US?

The issue isn't "blue vs green" that's generally the issue. It's more commonly things like, "the shade of blue in my home's lighting is darker than the shade of blue under your lighting in your photos". Or "my opinion is that I got a lower-grade upgraded wood than the higher-grade I specified". That's where it gets tricky, and can be subjective. Sometimes it's more clear than that, and a big reason it's recommended to use a credit card...the issuing bank tends to have more customer protections in place, but our consumer protecting laws in the US are nowhere near as robust as they are in UK/EU.

 

[_MonSTeR_]

Right so a ‘I ordered a seven string and you sent me an eight string’ would still be a returnable guitar even where it’s a ‘no return’ option50 or what have you, but, ‘I ordered a turquoise 4a flame top and you sent me an aquamarine 4a flame top’ is where things go on the Internet forums

 

[lurè]

A proper builder should make everything so much easier and less prone to fuck things up.

You can check and double check as many times as you want before sending the order; with emails or phone calls the chances of forgetting things or general misunderstandings are quite high.

Clearer spec choiches should results in less returned guitars.

 

[spudmunkey]

Honestly, even if they just had a "spec guide", that would ease a lot of people's minds and help make many things clearer, even if they can't provide a virtual "mockup".

Interestingly, on carvinworld.com, their old international site, there was a PDF that was a combination of a catalog, and a series of pages that explained/showed many options. There was a page that had diagrams of the availble fretboard radii, there was a page that showed all of the headstocks, another that showed all of the logo options, one that showed the hardware colors, one that showed larger swatches of woods, etc.

Then, just add a page that shows how the various finish options work on the edges/bevels, and that could help SO male people.

 

[laxu]

Honestly from a technical perspective a builder is a weekend project. Maybe a bit more if you need to gather photos of all your different options, but it's not too complicated.

It really isn't. Looking at how Balaguer does it is pretty close to how I would do it. They have several layers and then map various textures and masks on top of each other. Not too difficult.

But you need to create a pretty big amount of assets to cover all the options and models. Creating that, mapping it and above all testing it takes more time thank a weekend. Then you have all the "this excludes this" type stuff that is model specific. While you could probably make something like that in say a month or two, it's still a big expense for the company when they have to hire consultants to do the development.

 

[Seabeast2000]

It really isn't. Looking at how Balaguer does it is pretty close to how I would do it. They have several layers and then map various textures and masks on top of each other. Not too difficult.

But you need to create a pretty big amount of assets to cover all the options and models. Creating that, mapping it and above all testing it takes more time thank a weekend. Then you have all the "this excludes this" type stuff that is model specific. While you could probably make something like that in say a month or two, it's still a big expense for the company when they have to hire consultants to do the development.

Curious what a full revamp bid would look like. $100K? $20K?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Hey @spudmunkey and/or @mbardu, what does Kiesel's IT department look like?

Are we talking "someone's nephew that's good at the computers" or is there an actual staff? Figure they have to have someone on payroll who works on computers, being a primarily internet based business that uses computerized equipment.

I guess the real question is, do they do thier own web design and site maintenance or do they farm that out? I know my company does it somewhat 15/85 in split, with most functions farmed out to contractors.

Outside of this whole virtual builder thing, I'm just curious.

 

[bigcupholder]

Curious what a full revamp bid would look like. $100K? $20K?

It depends on whether they can buy an off-the-shelf system and then only need to customize it to their models/options, or if they need to build the whole thing from scratch. The former should cost somewhere between the two numbers you mentioned. Programmers are expensive but good software is infinitely reusable.

 

[spudmunkey]

Hey @spudmunkey and/or @mbardu, what does Kiesel's IT department look like?

Are we talking "someone's nephew that's good at the computers" or is there an actual staff? Figure they have to have someone on payroll who works on computers, being a primarily internet based business that uses computerized equipment.

I guess the real question is, do they do thier own web design and site maintenance or do they farm that out? I know my company does it somewhat 15/85 in split, with most functions farmed out to contractors.

Outside of this whole virtual builder thing, I'm just curious.

The guy who runs the Carvinmuseum website is also their "webmaster" for their official site. He lives in the east coast (or st least used to). He's mentioned being willing to do more, but being held back by the site's existing overall framework, and the time he's able to spend (i assume limited by his mandate/contract). The site basically looks identical to what it looked like in 2008, with par-for-the-era minor-to-major aesthetic changes from 2005-2008, with things like adding preview thumbnails and descriptions to the In-Stock page (it used to just be a string of option codes and a price), andre- arranging the links on the home page from a "side bar" design, to what they have now.

Somewhere around 2010, I remember there being a somewhat significant "back- of- house" update to the builder, but UI changes were minimal on purpose. One of the UI updates, though. Included those little pop-up preview thumbnails within the builder when you mouse over the radio buttons for some options.

The site still seems like it's built as if it were optimized for 800x600 and 1024x768 monitors, though.

Then there's the person who does their CNC programming, who i believe is a different person, and also a contractor.

That's all I think I know.

 

[mbardu]

The guy who runs the Carvinmuseum website is also their "webmaster" for their official site. He lives in the east coast (or st least used to). He's mentioned being willing to do more, but being held back by the site's existing overall framework, and the time he's able to spend (i assume limited by his mandate/contract). The site basically looks identical to what it looked like in 2008, with par-for-the-era minor-to-major aesthetic changes from 2005-2008, with things like adding preview thumbnails and descriptions to the In-Stock page (it used to just be a string of option codes and a price), andre- arranging the links on the home page from a "side bar" design, to what they have now.

Somewhere around 2010, I remember there being a somewhat significant "back- of- house" update to the builder, but UI changes were minimal on purpose. One of the UI updates, though. Included those little pop-up preview thumbnails within the builder when you mouse over the radio buttons for some options.

The site still seems like it's built as if it were optimized for 800x600 and 1024x768 monitors, though.

Then there's the person who does their CNC programming, who i believe is a different person, and also a contractor.

That's all I think I know.

tldr;

Jeff Kiesel: "wHaT's An It DePaRtMeNt?"

 

[iamaom]

The site still seems like it's built as if it were optimized for 800x600 and 1024x768 monitors, though.

Whenever I want to hover over a color in the paint section it's off screen.

 

[Seabeast2000]

Whenever I want to hover over a color in the paint section it's off screen.

It's a Thinner neck profile. Trust us.