Do you worry about guitar graphics and the potential meaning?

[RandomPolishGuy]

Just for the record, the largest amount of people that was murdered by the Germans in WW2 was not Jews, but Slavic (I don't mean military, but civilian casualties). I am talking several times more. It's just the slavs right after WW2 ended up being the "new enemy", so they didn't qualify as Holocaust victims...

I came here to say this! Fuck the Slavs, the gypsies, the muslims, and everyone else targeted is what it feels like. But if you try to mention that, you're anti Semitic. My moms Polish, and my dad's half Serbian half Bosnian, he left the country during the wars in the 90s, and what he told me of his grandfathers experiences during WW2 is disgusting. The Croats under influence of the Nazis and partially their own beliefs slaughtered us like insects but no one ever talks about that. Depending on the source, the total is anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000. One source even claims the true number is over 1 million. And that's just Serbs. Add around 6 million Poles, 300,000 Czechs, and almost 24 million Soviet non combatants, and that's over 5x more Slavs than Jews. I'm not trying to downplay their loss, but all you ever hear is 6 million Jews this, 6 Million Jews that, but never about the over 30 million NON COMBATANT Slavs

 

[jaxadam]

I'll be the first to admit I consume some problematic art in the privacy of my own home,

An empty browser history says more about a person than a full one - Sun Tzu

 

[ZLE]

The only reason I disabled browsing history on my PC is because it goes easier on SSD...

 

[Ikke]

Interesting topic. Nothing of substance really to add.

I really like swastika (I tend to call it a manji) and its meaning. I’m more partial to swastika than sauwasitka, though, both are fine. I find the design to be very satisfying.

I find the Nazi manji less interesting for some reason; maybe the tilt takes something from the design. But, I’m not sure and will have to think more deeply on this.

I don’t personally get offended by any of the aforementioned symbols (i.e. iron cross, manji, Dixie flag, etc.) as I prefer to just let people show me their nature (character and actions), rather than make a judgement call based upon their use of the symbol alone. In summary, case-by-case for me. But, that’s just my temperament. Obviously, sometimes the symbol and nature will go hand-in-hand.

But, I also understand those who do not have my temperament and come to their conclusions more quickly than I do. No time they’re wanting to waste.

We’re all limited by our experience, knowledge, and temperament, at least, in my opinion.

Take care, all.

 

[Nightside]

I came here to say this! Fuck the Slavs, the gypsies, the muslims, and everyone else targeted is what it feels like. But if you try to mention that, you're anti Semitic. My moms Polish, and my dad's half Serbian half Bosnian, he left the country during the wars in the 90s, and what he told me of his grandfathers experiences during WW2 is disgusting. The Croats under influence of the Nazis and partially their own beliefs slaughtered us like insects but no one ever talks about that. Depending on the source, the total is anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000. One source even claims the true number is over 1 million. And that's just Serbs. Add around 6 million Poles, 300,000 Czechs, and almost 24 million Soviet non combatants, and that's over 5x more Slavs than Jews. I'm not trying to downplay their loss, but all you ever hear is 6 million Jews this, 6 Million Jews that, but never about the over 30 million NON COMBATANT Slavs

Not to mention how the Poles saved Britain's ass in 1940 only for Churchill to feed them to Stalin after the war.

And the Poles tried to warn the west about the death camps only to be ignored. Like a motherfucker escaped from Auschwitz and then broke back in to collect evidence and escaped again to deliver the evidence.

 

[RandomPolishGuy]

Not to mention how the Poles saved Britain's ass in 1940 only for Churchill to feed them to Stalin after the war.

And the Poles tried to warn the west about the death camps only to be ignored. Like a motherfucker escaped from Auschwitz and then broke back in to collect evidence and escaped again to deliver the evidence.

Poland really just gets used as the Wests communal fuck toy it seems. Basically just gets fucked in the ass then kicked to the curb without so much as a reach around until someone else gets a hard on they just can't fix themselves. And that's their "allies."

"Oi bruv dinnit u 'elp us fite them Jerries? Oi ya did?? To show our appreciation we've decided to let our good fren Stalin take ya home, he makes thems funny slav sounds just like you do so you'll fit right in! aint that sound splendid old chap!! Now quit yappin 'bout thems German summer camps for kids who can't focus, we've got a war to win."
**Scared Kurwa noises intensify**

 

[gabito]

What about guitars with a US flag graphic? Or is the millions upon millions of deaths at their hands not count?

In my country you'd certainly be asking for trouble if you were to use one of those guitars... or one with the Union Jack: there was a war between my country and Great Britain a few decades ago (we started it, we lost). Also in the 70s the CIA pretty much organized the bloodiest coup in my country's history: murders, torture, kidnapping, you name it.

Also, as a third world country, we tend to see them as imperialistic / invaders / thieves / whatever (which they sometimes are). So... you might end up having to use your fists to defend yourself (and no, I don't hate americans or the british, I wouldn't be here if I did).

You'd be in trouble if you waved a nazi flag too (a different kind of trouble, I think it's even illegal to do that here). I don't think anybody knows about the iron cross or the rising sun flag (I didn't know until recently, TBH), so those might be OK. And no, NOBODY knows what a Confederate flag is.

I don't think Jeff Hanneman or Lemmy were nazis or even racists, like I don't think somebody interested in serial killers is a serial killer or that they plan to murder someone... that said, if they were to collect serial killer's parafernalia I'd pretty much prefer if they wouldn't show me the severed head of some poor guy

We all like problematic / controversial stuff, I'm sure about that. And I don't like feeling like an old man, terrified of people "breaking the rules", "being politically incorrect", or whatever, so I don't. Do whatever you want, and deal with the consequences. I'm also aware that some people might not know about some symbols' meanings (like the iron cross I mentioned before, which I thought it looked pretty cool on James Hetfield's guitar back then): if anything, nazis were on point with their fashion sense, and also had pretty good designers for their symbology. It's the other stuff they did that I don't like.

If I were to buy a guitar with, say, a nazi symbol (even if I liked the design) I'd ask myself: do I really want to look like I support these people? Do I want to have to explain to everybody that I'm not a nazi, but I fully support their overworked designers? Do I want a bunch of skinheads approaching me and talking to me like if we were buddies?

I don't feel like dealing with all that, even less so defend something related to a racist mass murdering group of people, so... I'd rather not.

I will defend my tasteless Cannibal Corpse t-shirt to the death though

 

[Nightside]

Poland really just gets used as the Wests communal fuck toy it seems. Basically just gets fucked in the ass then kicked to the curb without so much as a reach around until someone else gets a hard on they just can't fix themselves. And that's their "allies."

"Oi bruv dinnit u 'elp us fite them Jerries? Oi ya did?? To show our appreciation we've decided to let our good fren Stalin take ya home, he makes thems funny slav sounds just like you do so you'll fit right in! aint that sound splendid old chap!! Now quit yappin 'bout thems German summer camps for kids who can't focus, we've got a war to win."
**Scared Kurwa noises intensify**

Stopping the communist invasion of Europe in 1920...
Thanks, we'll sit back and watch you get double teamed by the nazis and the soviets while both rape and massacre your population as well as kidnapping civilians to work in concentration camps or Siberian gulags and then after you still help us win, we'll leave you under the control of the nation you embarrassed by thwarting their invasion in 1920 and occupying Moscow in 1610...

 

[ZLE]

@gabito Messi is that you?

 

[StevenC]

 

[Nightside]

You're not going to believe this but where I'm from the Union flag is very offensive.

Learning about what the British did to the Irish really helped me understand the plot of Young Guns. When I was a kid I always wondered why they hated that English dude so much.

 

[Zhysick]

I never liked graphics of any kind in guitars, so I guess I'm safe

Probably because ignorance of belicist events it's usually cooler when you see flags of other countries in guitars. But man, If I ever see someone playing a guitar with a spanish flag live I'm walking the fuck out.

You know who are proud of using the Spanish flag the same way those are proud of the confederate flag in USA

 

[Zhysick]

The only thing I have to say is:

If there are 5 people sitting at a table and one of them is a communist, there are 5 commies sitting at a table.

I said that sbout the nazis at the table because it is a german saying. Applicable to others? Yeah, of course...

 

[StevenC]

I said that sbout the nazis at the table because it is a german saying. Applicable to others? Yeah, of course...

Fascinating that the communists fought the nazis

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Fascinating that the communists fought the nazis

"There are very fine people on both sides."

 

[TedEH]

I'm a page or two behind for this point, but probably worth putting out there:
As someone outside of the US, if your guitar (or band imagery or whatever else) is plastered with the American flag, especially as part of some bigger patriotic display, you're absolutely being judged for that - including for the potential obliviousness to the message being carried.

The same is true of the Canadian flag in some places, including here. There are moments where I will keep a wide distance away from anyone who is proudly waving a Canadian flag around, when context makes it clear that it's carrying a particular kind of patriotism or nationalism with it.

 

[Zhysick]

Fascinating that the communists fought the nazis

As fascinating as Hamas fighting Israel I suppose.

 

[MFB]

Corporate wants you to find the difference between these three photos.

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View attachment 136706

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Problematic or not, I'll admit I do find #2 AESTHETICALLY cool, maybe because it's a desaturated, not plain ol' Dukes of Hazzard style Confederate Flag but I could never own it myself

 

[Big_taco]

you either EET FUK or live long enough to iron cross....

 

[Sermo Lupi]

I suppose I agree that the event doesn't have to be recent to be offensive, provided we still actively wrestle with the repercussions of those events today. But there are plenty of let's say Viking or Roman era events that are simply not in the contemporary zeitgeist in a meaningful way, and I would have a hard time finding symbols or references to those events as being inappropriate. Open to a counterexample but I can't think of any.

I'm not sure I agree that Viking or Roman-era events aren't in the contemporary zeitgeist. I've heard Joe Rogan among others proudly praise Iceland's or Norway's 'Viking gene pool' for producing superior athletes, perpetuating a eugenic myth that the Vikings stole 'all the good women' from elsewhere in Europe 1000 years ago to create a superior race in Scandinavia. Imperial Rome has been abused as a model by numerous fascist governments and used as a benchmark for demarcating limits of so-called 'civilisation' in the present day. I can think of a lot of ways in which that history is still around, producing ill effects for contemporary people.

We'd be remiss not to acknowledge the acts of rape and murder the Vikings perpetuated that can be bothersome to present-day victims of those crimes, for whom the Vikings are not this nostalgic portrait of 'adventure on the high seas' cited in your earlier comment.

As for symbolism, Futhark (runes) have been so thoroughly co-opted by skinheads and similar groups that they're commonly listed among symbols of hate and are taboo in several countries. The fasces symbol used in ancient Rome is among the symbols listed in the ADL's Hate Symbol Database.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm the first person telling people there's nuance to these topics, trying to promote the good over the bad.

At the same time, it boggles my mind how bold people can be about sanitising the image the Vikings, making exceptions for them, or even looking to them as a model for advocating violence against religious and racial groups today.

My point is that people who do this without intent to hate should consider what they're doing more closely. There's a lot of ignorance around the Vikings and it's difficult not to notice how that's shaken out in other fields of history.