Fake Shredders

[ArtHam]

It's an annoying topic but I wonder why some people have such strong words and opinions on other musicians. I love elitist metalheads

My language was no stronger than what you said about Jason Richardson, so no reason to act all triggered.
You started projecting this whole issue on your own situation, totally ignoring the issue as a whole. Has nothing at all to do with elitism.
None of it was an attack on you as a person or your technique (I'll once again repeat you have great technique). Just an observation. You give your opinion, I give mine.

When did you play with Alkaloid? I love them, but I saw their two shows this summer and you certainly weren't there.
I'd be excited if you did fill in for them. And I do wish you success. Me wondering out loud why I only got to see you play once in, possibly, one of the worst train wrecks I've ever witnessed on stage, was not an insult.

Why is this an annoying topic to you? You're IN that Geldschlager video. You affiliated yourself with it, of your own volition. You reply in this topic. You apparently used to do this, but now have a problem with it. You are somehow beyond reproach?

Wow your playing really hits some nerves with that guy. How long has he been holding that rant in lol

About 1 minute. Didn't want to say anything about it. Like I said, love his technique.

How is 3 lines a rant?

What I did notice though is that the ones complaining are generally hobby guitarists complaining about the success of others. Success, free gear etc has never ever been a game of 'the fastest, cleanest best guitarist'. 'This guy has success and he doesn't deserve it'. 'Jason Richardson is clean, but not that clean'.

If you mean my comment about Miles, I stand 100% by it. He called out the Berried guy, but owes his 'success' to his bandmate Lucas who's the most famous example of this nonsense. And the only reason he gets all worked up is because people have started calling him out because of the RoS link.

 

[Necropitated]

My language was no stronger than what you said about Jason Richardson, so no reason to act all triggered.
You started projecting this whole issue on your own situation, totally ignoring the issue as a whole. Has nothing at all to do with elitism.
None of it was an attack on you as a person or your playing. Just an observation.

When did you play with Alkaloid? I love them, but I saw their two shows this summer and you certainly weren't there.
I'd be excited if you did fill in for them.

Why is this an annoying topic to you? You're IN that Geldschlager video. You affiliated yourself with it, of your own volition.



About 1 minute. Didn't want to say anything about it. Like I said, love his technique.

How is 3 lines a rant?

What I did notice though is that the ones complaining are generally hobby guitarists complaining about the success of others. Success, free gear etc has never ever been a game of 'the fastest, cleanest best guitarist'. 'This guy has success and he doesn't deserve it'. 'Jason Richardson is clean, but not that clean'.

If you mean my comment about Miles, I stand 100% by it. He called out the Berried guy, but owes his 'success' to his bandmate Lucas who's the most famous example of this nonsense. And the only reason he gets all worked up is because people have started calling him out because of the RoS link.

I have and had no strong language on Jason and neither am I projecting anything. Jason is the example of a great guitar player that still doesn't sound exactly like on CD even if he already is one of the cleanest and best out there. And the whole message of my post where you probably think I'm projecting is that you can't compare peoples real playing to a CD and that's what someone did with my playing. And the comment Jason is clean, but not that clean, that you just said, well if that is my opinion, what's wrong about that? It applies to a lot of guitar players when you're comparing them to their playing on cd's. I knew exactly why it's a bad idea to take Jason as an example. He totally deserves his success and is one of the greatest right now. But let me guess, you're one of the people that hate fake playing but as an artistic choice it's totally okay right?

So sorry, but I am allowed to feel insulted, right? Especially by your exceptional observation skills that have deduced that I'm not getting anywhere. And this is the only part of comment that I'm feeling butthurt about. The part about my playing? Sure you can totally say that. I have not put anything original to the table. But getting this far, being asked by Defeated Sanity, The HAARP Machine and Alkaloid in one year to fill in has been a lot of work over the years and is one hell of an accomplishment for me. Apparantly I'm not the only one that thinks your comment could be interpretated as offending. You could've said that with different, nicer words and getting your message across without that nonsense. And this whole comment about hobby guitarists complaining feels directed at me again, because well, it is the answer to my post. Don't know why you are acting that way. And hey man, I'm sharing your opinion on why and what's getting succesful on youtube and social media. You're right on that. People are selling entertainment and music is just secondary these days. But the thing is, I don't mind the success of other musicians. They all probably deserve it. Getting there, no matter how is a lot of work. If it's Ola and Jared as "Entertainers" and all other ventures they have or Jason Richardson as an exceptional musician. They all deserve that and I have no ill-feeling about that.

Alkaloid, they asked me to fill-in for Danny for their Metal Days show. Danny was originally supposed to fill-in for Aborted on their summer festival tour and that's why he couldn't play. In the end, for reasons I will not disclose here, Danny decided to not play the Aborted tour and that way he would've been able to play that show I was supposed to fill-in. At that point they said they'll play with Danny and I don't have to learn the songs anymore. The problem was, the same reason that Danny decided to not play the Aborted shows prevented him from playing the Alkaloid shows in the end and then it was already too late for me to learn the songs and they decided to play the show without Danny or a fill-in. If you don't believe me, feel free to ask anyone of the band. I'm still (music) friends with them and we all respect each other as musicians, even if I'm just a cover guitarist.

To Toms video, yes, I can understand why you say that. But just because I am in that video, as a silent guitar player, doesn't mean I'm agreeing with everything Tom says or with this whole current controversy, right? I understand that you think that, and this one goes on me. But I am and was silent most of the time about that subject and I have a different opinion which I don't feel like sharing anymore. My only part in this video was the playing, nothing more. I did not say a single word in the video and on social media I don't talk about that. It's good that Tom made people aware about that but I don't like that fingerpointing and how this controversy has spread. And just right now I know why I usually don't say anything.

 

[GunpointMetal]

@Necropitated you don't have anything to prove to anyone on this board, for sure. You could walk into just about any tech/death/heavy/whatever band and be the best musician in the band without every writing a lick.

 

[ArtHam]

But let me guess, you're one of the people that hate fake playing but as an artistic choice it's totally okay right?

So sorry, but I am allowed to feel insulted, right?

To Toms video, yes, I can understand why you say that. But just because I am in that video, as a silent guitar player, doesn't mean I'm agreeing with everything Tom says or with this whole current controversy, right? I understand that you think that, and this one goes on me. But I am and was silent most of the time about that subject and I have a different opinion which I don't feel like sharing anymore. My only part in this video was the playing, nothing more. I did not say a single word in the video and on social media I don't talk about that. It's good that Tom made people aware about that but I don't like that fingerpointing and how this controversy has spread. And just right now I know why I usually don't say anything.

No absolutely not. I think to each their own. But I can't stand the hypocrisy involved with people who HAVE done so and are now pointing fingers and acting all high and mighty when other players' popularity has passed them by.

You are absolutely allowed to be insulted.

The last paragraph explains everything. Allow me to offer my sincere apologies. I really didn't mean to insult you as I admire your technique. I can see how my message when read with an annoyed tone might come across as pointed at you. It really wasn't meant as insulting. More as a 'this one take playing stuff with one camera isn't interesting to the large majority'. Gotta chalk it up to the limitations of just the written medium and English not being my first language.

The hobby guitarist comment was just a general comment directed at the crowd at large who seem to get really upset. This whole witch hunt and all the soapbox drama Geldschlager seems to initiate every couple of months is getting on my nerves.

 

[efiltsohg]

I'm going to be the greatest athlete anyone has ever seen. I will win gold in all events from now until the end of time, and if you don't accept my production methods when I run a marathon in 0.00000000000000000001 seconds, can lift a billion lbs with my pinky, and jump a thousand feet into the air, then you're all just haters. I will also be the best at everything else too, once I buy the right programs. Haters gonna hate! Just kidding.

you joke, but there is a valid comparison here -

anybody who is best in the world at something physical in the post-steroids age is performance enhancing one way or another

anybody who is fastest/cleanest guitarist in the post-protools age...

I can't wait until youtube/instagram guitar scene is just nothing but cheaters all pointing fingers at each other like olympic athletes or tour de france

 

[Drew]

I blame the ever-increasing production standards and demand / content output.

Basically, if you want to make it today on social media - which happens to be the main (if only) place of revenue for many of these guitarists, you pretty much need:

- Top notch production quality, both audio and video
- Relatively frequent release of content
- Follow the current musical trends, or push things to the next level.

It's basically the musicians version of IG beauty standards.

Any musician that's ever written and recorded anything, knows that it's really fucking hard to always be pushing out new fresh content.

So you begin taking short-cuts, with the first being to just mime over "play-through" vids, etc.

Some people will argue that miming over a video is no big deal, because after all, every artist under the sun does that for their music videos - I disagree, a bedroom guitar video is not a music video. (But I understand why people do it - I have myself spent probably 50 takes on recording 4 min live vids, from start to stop)

Then the next step is to get more cams / angles, so that things look more interesting, but also so that you don't need to spend many takes on getting things down perfect / well-enough for people not to notice.

And finally you start cutting up material into smaller pieces / sections, so that you can get more bang for the buck and filler material - and you'll be posting on IG anyway.

These days I vastly enjoy vids from (and in the style of) Stephen Taranto, Jon Björk, etc. It all just sounds and feels real.

I mean, the natural answer to all of this is a combination of 1) calling out guys who ARE editing and/or miming videos (as is happening here), and 2) to praise the guys who ARE doing impressive but clearly human and unedited non-mimed and single camera playthroughs, and start latching on to the things that make their performances human as a desirable attribute.

The thing that, as a guitarist, concerns me the most about this thread is that while I welcome the backlash to guitarists "faking" performance getting some legs, there's an awful lot of discussion about what the "acceptable" level of faking is. The devil, as they say, is in the details, and if we're focusing on those details, then we're already damned.

 

[GunpointMetal]

The thing that, as a guitarist, concerns me the most about this thread is that while I welcome the backlash to guitarists "faking" performance getting some legs, there's an awful lot of discussion about what the "acceptable" level of faking is. The devil, as they say, is in the details, and if we're focusing on those details, then we're already damned.

I don't think music/playing should be a competition, and the creation of art should only be limited by what you're capable of with the tools you have, including comping/editing/programming/half-speed, etc. The "acceptable level" is admitting it. Fake all you want to make the art you wanna hear, just don't blow smoke up everyone's ass when they notice you're claiming accomplishments you haven't actually achieved. I'm working on two EPs right now for two different bands. Both of them will have a variety of "performance enhancers" on pretty much every instrument in the mix, and if anyone asks me, I will have no problem pointing out exactly where I tightened things up, or punched in 1000 times, because both of these bands are going to go out and play all of the material live without tracks for any of the live instruments. I'm not gonna feel bad about making my recorded output sound exactly how I want it to because I'm not going to lie or obfuscate people regarding my ability, should the question arise.

 

[efiltsohg]

This thread also reminds me, I remember reading like a decade ago about Zakk Wylde having a shitfit because Ozzy said they just assembled all the songs on (whatever album had just come out) in protools

 

[Seabeast2000]

Which pickup makes my guitar sound like a cheap general midi guitar sped up 200%?

Your Fishman AND EMG sig set will both get you there.

 

[Drew]

I don't think music/playing should be a competition, and the creation of art should only be limited by what you're capable of with the tools you have, including comping/editing/programming/half-speed, etc. The "acceptable level" is admitting it. Fake all you want to make the art you wanna hear, just don't blow smoke up everyone's ass when they notice you're claiming accomplishments you haven't actually achieved. I'm working on two EPs right now for two different bands. Both of them will have a variety of "performance enhancers" on pretty much every instrument in the mix, and if anyone asks me, I will have no problem pointing out exactly where I tightened things up, or punched in 1000 times, because both of these bands are going to go out and play all of the material live without tracks for any of the live instruments. I'm not gonna feel bad about making my recorded output sound exactly how I want it to because I'm not going to lie or obfuscate people regarding my ability, should the question arise.

I'll even wade into the waters here and draw a line between recording, and video performance. I'm more inclined to accept SOME editing in an album, though recording slowed down and speeding up is, IMO, a step too far.

Video, though... It's, literally, a chance to WATCH someone play something. You can split hairs all you want about wanting to make records perfect, but as soon as you start editing the audio in a video and/or miming along to pre-recorded tracks, what you're seeing is no longer what you're hearing.

In my entire... god, seven years of doing YouTube videos, I've only on one single occasion done any more "editing" than cutting out the hum of an amp before a performance or fading it out at the end, when in a playthrough video I accidently played a note on the A string instead of the D, or maybe vice versa, and replaced that one note with a correct one from an alternate take in the audio track. I disclosed it clearly in the video description, but even then I felt dirty.

But, if the idea here is you're supposed to be posting something to let someone see you play and watch what you're doing, if you're doing any editing to the performance, you're lying.

 

[GunpointMetal]

I disclosed it clearly in the video description, but even then I felt dirty.

But, if the idea here is you're supposed to be posting something to let someone see you play and watch what you're doing, if you're doing any editing to the performance, you're lying.

I think that's the point, though. That disclosure. Just don't lie about it. For me, I can see the value in having a "performance" video that includes album audio because A) it sounds better B) it's higher quality and will likely entice better reach and C) if you're trying to DIY a band/music career you're gonna have a lot more to do than sit and try and record 500 takes of a song to get a near perfect one (if that is what it takes). We did a performance video for my band and we definitely labeled it as ALBUM AUDIO because there was no way I was comping 10 camera angles with multi-track audio and 5-10 takes per person without getting paid, lol.

 

[dreamspace]

It should also be mentioned that IG compression makes all audio sound like hot garbage. If you want to fake it by miming over guitar pro tracks, then IG is the place to do it.

 

[Drew]

I think that's the point, though. That disclosure. Just don't lie about it. For me, I can see the value in having a "performance" video that includes album audio because A) it sounds better B) it's higher quality and will likely entice better reach and C) if you're trying to DIY a band/music career you're gonna have a lot more to do than sit and try and record 500 takes of a song to get a near perfect one (if that is what it takes). We did a performance video for my band and we definitely labeled it as ALBUM AUDIO because there was no way I was comping 10 camera angles with multi-track audio and 5-10 takes per person without getting paid, lol.

Eh, I think miming to pre-recorded audio is a copout. I'd be more inclined to accept it if it was clearly labeled, sure, but it makes me wonder why you're even bothering to shoot "performance" video. If you want to do that, just go all in and make it some sort of music video rather than a video of you pretending to play your guitar.

And of course because the world works in mysterious ways I'll probably find myself in a situation in the next five years where I DO have a reason to mime a part.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Eh, I think miming to pre-recorded audio is a copout. I'd be more inclined to accept it if it was clearly labeled, sure, but it makes me wonder why you're even bothering to shoot "performance" video. If you want to do that, just go all in and make it some sort of music video rather than a video of you pretending to play your guitar.

And of course because the world works in mysterious ways I'll probably find myself in a situation in the next five years where I DO have a reason to mime a part.

An actual music video requires time, usually money, pre-planning/writing, a script, actors, a location (or at least planning for a location you already have), and a lot more editing. All a performance video requires is a rehearsal spot and a band. The most involved part is the editing.

 

[BenjaminW]

If metal goes back to sounding like the 80s I'm starting an electronic band. Fuck that shit.

Oh come on. I like 80s metal.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Oh come on. I like 80s metal.

To each their own, I say. I just want nothing to do with that level of sticky, gooey, processed cheese.

 

[Drew]

An actual music video requires time, usually money, pre-planning/writing, a script, actors, a location (or at least planning for a location you already have), and a lot more editing. All a performance video requires is a rehearsal spot and a band. The most involved part is the editing.

My point though is that's basically the same for a mimed playthrough to an edited performance.

 

[GunpointMetal]

My point though is that's basically the same for a mimed playthrough to an edited performance.

It's really not though, all you need is the band, a camera or two, and like an hour to shoot.

 

[c7spheres]

This reminds me. I really need to revist my old W.A.S.P albums. They kicked some ass.

 

[bostjan]

To each their own, I say. I just want nothing to do with that level of sticky, gooey, processed cheese.

Why not both? Fake shredded processed cheese?

Seriously, though, some of those 80's shredders sped up their recordings, too, but, I think we are talking ~110% not 200%+ speed.

This reminds me. I really need to revist my old W.A.S.P albums. They kicked some ass.

Still do, right?