Guide To Djent Tone [Updated March 7 '13]

[kamello]

bumpity for this as people generally ask for this around

 

[lewis]

Great read this

2 quick questions though

1) where would the EQ be placed?. Infront of the amp or the loop?

2) You say that a para eq works best as you can select specific freq but If you can find a Graphic eq that isolates 1.4khz for you (like the artec SE EQ8 Graphic EQ - EDIT my bad it only has 1.2khz not 1.4 but thats pretty close isnt it?) Is that the same and will do the same job?. Or would a Para still be better?

Thanks for this though, Im now using it to update my whole live sound and effects

EDIT I also want to get rid of fizz from my amp so Im even half tempted to buy a Parametric and a Graphic EQ for the efx loop (presumably the best place for EQs...or can 1 be used after the Maxon infront of the amp to remove anything nasty being created by the OD?). The Para boosting the 1.4khz to give me that Djenty tone and the other Graphic EQ to add some meat and remove the fizz

Does anyone know If this would work?

 

[noUser01]

Great read this

2 quick questions though

1) where would the EQ be placed?. Infront of the amp or the loop?

2) You say that a para eq works best as you can select specific freq but If you can find a Graphic eq that isolates 1.4khz for you (like the artec SE EQ8 Graphic EQ - EDIT my bad it only has 1.2khz not 1.4 but thats pretty close isnt it?) Is that the same and will do the same job?. Or would a Para still be better?

Thanks for this though, Im now using it to update my whole live sound and effects

EDIT I also want to get rid of fizz from my amp so Im even half tempted to buy a Parametric and a Graphic EQ for the efx loop (presumably the best place for EQs...or can 1 be used after the Maxon infront of the amp to remove anything nasty being created by the OD?). The Para boosting the 1.4khz to give me that Djenty tone and the other Graphic EQ to add some meat and remove the fizz

Does anyone know If this would work?

Hey man! So sorry for the late reply.

1) You'd be better off putting it in the loop. The reason being that distortion compresses your tone, so if you put an EQ before your distortion it'll be much less severe. If you put it in the loop you don't have that compression fighting against the EQ changes you've made.

2) Either one works. And like I said, it doesn't need to be 1.4kHz, you should always experiment when given frequencies as with different setups you may find that you can only get a good tone with it at 1.5kHz, or 13.8kHz. As long as you're getting the sound you want, then THAT is the best way to do it.

When you say "fizz" can you be more specific? Are you talking about background noise and hiss when you aren't playing or are you talking about a specific frequency in your tone?

 

[Billy Butcher]

Hi, great post! I actually made a purchase based on this (the akai deluxe distortion). It's not bad..has a lot of variety to it.

This thread seemed more geared for people running into amps (I might of missed something), I prefer direct line in recording. Do you have a recommendation for the chain going into the audio interface? Right now my chain is od>noisegate>distortion>audio interface. Then I have some okay-ish plugins that I use to get my compression. Anyways, I struggle like a son-of-a-****** dialing in for tone. I can't seem to get the clarity I really want. It's okay, I just wish it could be better. Any suggestions?

 

[noUser01]

Hi, great post! I actually made a purchase based on this (the akai deluxe distortion). It's not bad..has a lot of variety to it.

This thread seemed more geared for people running into amps (I might of missed something), I prefer direct line in recording. Do you have a recommendation for the chain going into the audio interface? Right now my chain is od>noisegate>distortion>audio interface. Then I have some okay-ish plugins that I use to get my compression. Anyways, I struggle like a son-of-a-****** dialing in for tone. I can't seem to get the clarity I really want. It's okay, I just wish it could be better. Any suggestions?

Thanks man.

Not at all, these are all general guidelines and work the same way if you're using plugins. Just so I'm clear, you're going:

Guitar > OD Pedal > Noise Gate Pedal > Distortion Pedal > Audio interface? That's it? Nothing else?

If that is the case, you need to be running an amp simulation and cabinet simulation of some kind. Otherwise you're really just recording a DI signal with some stuff on it. I recommend checking out something like Amplitube, Revalver, POD Farm, etc. If you want something free check out the LePou series of plugins, which include a cabinet simulator and preamp sims as well. If you're not familiar with this kind of set up go to my website (link in my signature) and go to the blog section, I've written up a tutorial on Recording Guitars at Home which has all the necessary steps to download and set up these plugins.

 

[Billy Butcher]

Thanks man.

Not at all, these are all general guidelines and work the same way if you're using plugins. Just so I'm clear, you're going:

Guitar > OD Pedal > Noise Gate Pedal > Distortion Pedal > Audio interface? That's it? Nothing else?

If that is the case, you need to be running an amp simulation and cabinet simulation of some kind. Otherwise you're really just recording a DI signal with some stuff on it. I recommend checking out something like Amplitube, Revalver, POD Farm, etc. If you want something free check out the LePou series of plugins, which include a cabinet simulator and preamp sims as well. If you're not familiar with this kind of set up go to my website (link in my signature) and go to the blog section, I've written up a tutorial on Recording Guitars at Home which has all the necessary steps to download and set up these plugins.

I have a tuner at the beginning and a delay at the end. But they get used so seldom, and they're true bypasses when turned off (I know that that's not perfect due to signal loss through more chord etc etc..)

I haven't had too much luck with the amp and cab plugins, tone-wise. My other guitarist has been using Guitar Rig, which isn't bad, but I'm not blown away from it. I have an additional plugin I can use it's the Poulin LeCto v1. It just simulates a Mesa Boogie rectifier. I'm not really feeling it though. It's real buzzy sounding.

If you had to pick one amp simulator, which one do you think would wield the best results?

 

[noUser01]

I have a tuner at the beginning and a delay at the end. But they get used so seldom, and they're true bypasses when turned off (I know that that's not perfect due to signal loss through more chord etc etc..)

I haven't had too much luck with the amp and cab plugins, tone-wise. My other guitarist has been using Guitar Rig, which isn't bad, but I'm not blown away from it. I have an additional plugin I can use it's the Poulin LeCto v1. It just simulates a Mesa Boogie rectifier. I'm not really feeling it though. It's real buzzy sounding.

If you had to pick one amp simulator, which one do you think would wield the best results?

Unfortunately you need to use an amp and cab plugin unless you are going to reamp your DI's later. But at the end of the day if you're recording direct without reamping you NEED to be running into an amp simulator and a cab simulator in your DAW or it's not going to work.

Do you know how to EQ guitars for recording though? Did you try a low pass and high pass filter on the guitars first? Honestly the LePou amps are hard to beat.

If after the high and low pass filters you're still having issues, upload a clip and we can go from there.

 

[enuenu]

I have a Dual Rectifier, OD9 Pro+, Flashback X4, Fuzz War, Voodoo Wah, G String Decimator gate and an Empress Parametric EQ. I cannot for the life of me get the G String to work in the loop. When placed in the loop all sorts of bizarre noises are created and the amp sounds like it has a massive problem. This is regardless of loop level and mix settings (although changing these settings alters the weirdness).

I think the G String is made for serial loops so perhaps the parallel loop in the Recto is the problem and I can only use the G String out front.

So at the moment I have the G String out front acting as an umbrella over my OD, EQ, Wah & Fuzz. This then goes to the front input. Then I have my delay in the loop. This works but I wonder if I am making the most of the G String's capabilities.

 

[noUser01]

I have a Dual Rectifier, OD9 Pro+, Flashback X4, Fuzz War, Voodoo Wah, G String Decimator gate and an Empress Parametric EQ. I cannot for the life of me get the G String to work in the loop. When placed in the loop all sorts of bizarre noises are created and the amp sounds like it has a massive problem. This is regardless of loop level and mix settings (although changing these settings alters the weirdness).

I think the G String is made for serial loops so perhaps the parallel loop in the Recto is the problem and I can only use the G String out front.

So at the moment I have the G String out front acting as an umbrella over my OD, EQ, Wah & Fuzz. This then goes to the front input. Then I have my delay in the loop. This works but I wonder if I am making the most of the G String's capabilities.

I hope I don't insult, but I just want to make sure you're running it properly. I don't know about parallel/serial loops and how they would impact it, but you should be running your guitar into the Guitar In, then the Guitar Out to your pedalboard. The Decimator In/Out should be connected to the loop of your amp. Is that how you had it set up?

Another thing to remember is that the the delay pedal should go AFTER the noise gate in your signal chain, or else the gate might freak out a bit and you'll have no delay, heh. That might be causing some weird noises for you.

Can you give me the entire rundown of your signal chain in order so I can try and help you better? Audio/video clips of the strange noises might help as well.

 

[enuenu]

Thanks. I have made some progress. Now the main question surrounds placement of my Para EQ and the G String. I will post a diagram when I can, meanwhile here is a description of the situation. I have a 3 Ch Dual Recto, G String Decimator, Empress Para EQ w/boost, Flashback X4 delay, Maxon OD9 Pro+, Wahzoo Wah, tuner and a Fuzz War.

The Decimator G String is supposed to be used in conjunction with the loop apparently, so I wanted to do this. I used to have it set up like the diagram at top right of the manual;
http://www.isptechnologies.com/manuals/Decimator G String Pedal 5-13-092.pdf
but that doesn't make use of the FX loop so I thought maybe I should change the layout to make the most of the G String’s capabilities.

I recently read this thread and in it saw what looked like a good layout diagram (see 7th post for diagram);
Guitar Forums: Effects Pedals: Decimator G-string cable layout?

This post suggested putting the EQ and delay in the loop (making use of the G String's FX loop functionality) and setting the mix to 100% (as the DR's loop is parallel not serial) This didn't work at first. I was getting some horrific noises out of the amp before I quickly turned my guitar volume to 0.

Then through a process of elimination I realized it was the Para EQ being in the loop that was causing the problems, so I took it out of the loop and put it out front, leaving the delay and G String in the loop. This all worked OK it seemed.

However I did notice that when I had the Para EQ in the loop it had very significant effects on the tone. This was a good thing. I was getting some great tones, very extreme and varied. The EQ had way more effect on tone when in the loop as opposed to when it was out front.

However I had to be careful when the EQ was in the loop. I had to set the EQ's input pad to -12dB and keep its boost setting at 10dB or below. Once the boost was over 15dB horrible feedback and squealing occurred. Anything over 20dB and the amp sounded like it was going to die, making all sorts of squealing, thumping and stuttering tones. I turned the EQ's boost back down immediately. Changing the EQ's input pad level had a similar effect. When switched from -12dB to 0dB the amp freaked out again.

So I thought maybe having the EQ in the loop could damage the amp, even with the boost down low and the input pad maximized. Have I already damaged the amp? Could prolonged use of the EQ in the loop damage the amp, even with boost and input pad settings set to avoid the amp freaking?

Maybe even the fact that certain frequencies are boosted can cause damage even though it all sounds OK? I am not a technical person but my guess is that the boost to the signal carried out by the EQ is something the loop can't handle, to some extent anyway.

I then took the EQ out of the loop and put it back out front. I could then max out the EQ’s boost even when chained with the OD9 on maximum boost. Input pad setting could also be anywhere. However the EQ was no longer having the massive effect on tone that was so much fun when I had it in the loop. It still changed the tone a lot when out front, just nowhere near as radically.

Should I leave this EQ in the loop or take it out and leave it out front?
Here is the manual;
http://www.empresseffects.com/manuals/paraeq.pdf

Maybe I should revert to having the G String completely out front, covering all my pedals except delay (no loop involvement, as per the diagram at top right of the G String manual) and put the delay in the loop by itself? However maybe the G String is “working better” when in the loop with the delay?

As far as having the delay after the noise gate as you mentioned, I refer to the diagram second from top on the right side of the G String manual. I am guessing that when the G String is in the loop with the delay, that the delay would sit between “Dec Out” on the G String and “Return” on my amp. Sorry to state what is probably obvious, that's how I have had it and it works (plus it makes sense to me.)

Sorry for such a long post, but the devil is in the detail.

 

[noUser01]

I appreciate the detail, I think I can help.

Firstly the boost feature on the ParaEQ is just that, a volume boost. You really have no reason to set it to anything except 0db (which turns off the boost). It's just for amplifying the signal, which seems pointless in your case. So with that boost on, plus adding EQ boosts it's only natural that the amp won't take it well, you're adding a LOT of signal that way. If you wanted to boost the signal that's going into the front of the amp then maybe you'd want to use it, but you're already doing that with an overdrive anyways. Bottom line, you don't need the boost.

Secondly, an EQ will always have a much more drastic impact on your distorted tone when you put the EQ in the loop. The reason being that distortion compresses your signal, meaning if you made some EQ boost before you hit the amp, the distortion the amp creates will also compress those EQ changes you've made, making them less severe. There are benefits to putting an EQ before the amp (as discussed briefly in the ParaEQ manual) but for our purposes you probably want it in the loop.

The input pad shouldn't be necessary, so I would turn the pad off and also turn the boost off. The EQ isn't the part of your chain that's freaking out, it's your amp. But the reason your amp is freaking out is because you're sending a TON of signal to your power-amp (through the effects loop return) because of the boost in your EQ. Like I said, turn the boost OFF. You should now be able to make the necessary EQ changes without the amp freaking out from too much signal.

For the delay pedal, I would stick it exactly where you've mentioned - after the "Dec Out", before the amp's effects loop "Return". That way it is the last thing in your signal chain and the gate won't cut off the repeats. I doubt you've damaged your amp, and you mentioned everything sounds and works fine so I don't think you have to worry about that at all.

Does that help you out? Let me know if there's anything else.

 

[enuenu]

Thanks a lot. Great help. So I just keep the EQ in the loop but take care to keep the boost at zero and no amp damage will occur?

When the EQ was in the loop, the problems with the EQ providing too much signal also seemed to be soothed a great deal by also setting the input pad at -12dB. Is that because this decreases the signal going to the power amp, just as keeping the boost down low does?

 

[noUser01]

Thanks a lot. Great help. So I just keep the EQ in the loop but take care to keep the boost at zero and no amp damage will occur?

When the EQ was in the loop, the problems with the EQ providing too much signal also seemed to be soothed a great deal by also setting the input pad at -12dB. Is that because this decreases the signal going to the power amp, just as keeping the boost down low does?

You turning on the input pad to -12db helped because you had the boost turned on - as you said - as high as +10db. So really, if you keep the boost off you can also keep the input pad off. Input pad is when there's too much signal coming INTO the pedal, so it lowers your signal gain. But you just ended up boosting it using the boost knob anyways at the end of your chain, so one is just cancelling out the other!

It's not so much about damage, it's just that you have no reason to boost your signal with the boost knob period. And when you do use the boost knob you're just getting a lot of feedback anyways. You're not boosting your signal in a desirable place, really.

 

[enuenu]

Thanks so much! Friendly Canadians rule I'll post a diagram for analysis when I get to it.

The G String manual says the G String should be the last pedal in the chain. However if I have it correct this isn't always the case. For example, we have decided the delay should go in after the G String in the loop section.

The other region where I would question this "put the G String last" instruction is with regards to the placement of the dirt pedals out front. I have the dirt pedals between the G String's "Guitar Out" and the amp's input.

The way I read it, if I were to follow the manual's advice the dirt pedals (OD, Wah & Fuzz) would be between the guitar and the G String's "Guitar In" (thus the G String would be last). I'm probably interpreting the manual incorrectly as this layout would contradict post No. 7 here, which I'm guessing is correct (and I have copied).

I've got to say for all the work ISP put into building the pedal, they seem to have scratched out the manual on the back of a coaster at the pub after work one day. The diagram relating to loop usage in the manual doesn't even show a single effects pedal. Why not provide half a dozen possible layout diagrams and save people like me a lot of confusion? It would only take them an hour or so to knock something like that up. Hard to understand. I guess they don't cater to tech newbs.

 

[noUser01]

Thanks so much! Friendly Canadians rule I'll post a diagram for analysis when I get to it.

The G String manual says the G String should be the last pedal in the chain. However if I have it correct this isn't always the case. For example, we have decided the delay should go in after the G String in the loop section.

The other region where I would question this "put the G String last" instruction is with regards to the placement of the dirt pedals out front. I have the dirt pedals between the G String's "Guitar Out" and the amp's input.

The way I read it, if I were to follow the manual's advice the dirt pedals (OD, Wah & Fuzz) would be between the guitar and the G String's "Guitar In" (thus the G String would be last). I'm probably interpreting the manual incorrectly as this layout would contradict post No. 7 here, which I'm guessing is correct (and I have copied).

I've got to say for all the work ISP put into building the pedal, they seem to have scratched out the manual on the back of a coaster at the pub after work one day. The diagram relating to loop usage in the manual doesn't even show a single effects pedal. Why not provide half a dozen possible layout diagrams and save people like me a lot of confusion? It would only take them an hour or so to knock something like that up. Hard to understand. I guess they don't cater to tech newbs.

My pleasure, buddy.

The placement is entirely dependent on what you want to gate with the noise gate. In this case we decided to gate the entire signal before the power amp except the delay (for reasons we've already discussed). The reason being (as discussed in the guide) since you've only got one gate you want to gate your entire signal since you've got noise coming from several sources and only one gate, so putting it at the end means it'll handle the noise from ALL parts of your signal path (your drive pedals, your amp, and any noise from other pedals, cheap cables, poor power supplies etc). I honestly don't know why they recommend putting it last, especially when it's just going to confuse people when you consider it isn't a straight in/out pedal, it has a loop too.

Anyways... best way I can explain it is that whatever is in the loop of the G String is what will actually be gated. The Guitar In and Guitar Output are so the pedal can actually track your signal right at the source - after the guitar but before any pedals. So the pedal will gate your signal after whatever is in the loop, but will track it accurately based on the signal straight from the guitar, completely unaffected. As you know, when you pile on pedals (especially distortion) it gets harder for a gate to react to when you ACTUALLY stop playing. That's the point of having a separate loop and tracking signal, so they can be spot on when it comes to stop/start stuff.

 

[enuenu]

Best explanation I've read. Cheers!

 

[noUser01]

Best explanation I've read. Cheers!

Anytime.

 

[Billy Butcher]

Unfortunately you need to use an amp and cab plugin unless you are going to reamp your DI's later. But at the end of the day if you're recording direct without reamping you NEED to be running into an amp simulator and a cab simulator in your DAW or it's not going to work.

Do you know how to EQ guitars for recording though? Did you try a low pass and high pass filter on the guitars first? Honestly the LePou amps are hard to beat.

If after the high and low pass filters you're still having issues, upload a clip and we can go from there.

Whoa there! Sorry it's been so long. I've been super busy writing and learning how to use the plugins to my advantage. Got to go back on what I said about the LePou; you were spot-on, absolutely, positively right about the LePou plugins! The Le456 (ENGL emulator) is hands-down one of the greatest plugins I've used. Mixed with a single impulse in the LeCab, so so nice! Well, I'm still running my pedals direct into the audio interface, and I then run the Le456 clean with some eq, and PRESTO! Glorious tone! Can't thank you enough, brother!

 

[noUser01]

Whoa there! Sorry it's been so long. I've been super busy writing and learning how to use the plugins to my advantage. Got to go back on what I said about the LePou; you were spot-on, absolutely, positively right about the LePou plugins! The Le456 (ENGL emulator) is hands-down one of the greatest plugins I've used. Mixed with a single impulse in the LeCab, so so nice! Well, I'm still running my pedals direct into the audio interface, and I then run the Le456 clean with some eq, and PRESTO! Glorious tone! Can't thank you enough, brother!

Glad everything worked out for you man, post some clips if you get a chance. Would love to hear what you came up with.

 

[Billy Butcher]

Glad everything worked out for you man, post some clips if you get a chance. Would love to hear what you came up with.

Will do. Probably be a month or 2. We got a song out, but it came before the power of the plugins, and we were (still are) learning tone and recording, so tone-wise, not near as good as what we're pushing now. Feel free to listen though It's simple, but we dug it when we made it. Newer stuff is blowing this away