JimF
Contributor
I wrote a longer reply to discuss some points but realised that question is a bit of a qualifier.
Israel-Palestine escalation live: Gaza under bombardment after Hamas attack
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I wrote a longer reply to discuss some points but realised that question is a bit of a qualifier.
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Drew
Forum MVP
Beyond this, there are also widespread protests against Netanyahu within Israel, and groups representing the hostages still held are pushing for Israel to accept a cease-fire deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...hu-ceasefire-proposal-hamas-rafah-attack-gaza
Israelis rally to demand ceasefire and Netanyahu's resignation
"We hope the world hears us and knows that the people of Israel are not the government of Israel," said one protester.
www.euronews.com
Makes it a little hard to take whatever sort of nit-picking about the importance of US Jewish groups protests narad is arguing for at face value.
Drew
Forum MVP
Decent NY Times summary of the situation fron Netanyahu's standpoint, too. tl;dr:
*Netanyahu has a very slender majority, 64 of the 120 seats in the Knesset.
*while he's in power, various corruption investigations and court cases against him have effectively been put on hold. He's highly motivated to keep it that way.
*He's successfully been able to use the war as a reason to defer new elections, so he's in no hurry to have it end. Additionally, 14 members of his coalition are hard-right and have indicated they will leave the coalition if he agrees to a ceasefire. This would likely prompt a new election, though its possible he could buil a new coalition without them.
*he's under a tremendous amount of diplomatic pressure to not invade Rafah and accept a cease-fire.
*he's under a tremendous amount of pressure from his hard right allies to NOT accept a cease-fire, which would probably involve invading Rafah.
Basically, he's kind of caught in a situation where if he wants to stay out of jail he has to stay in power, and if he wants to stay in power he has to keep the war going. But, to do that, he's badly straining diplomatic relations with pretty much all the rest of the world, including the US (which has paused weapons shipments while they wait to see what Israel does, after they seized the border crossing).
I think one aspect of this whole mess that's getting seriously downplayed by all of Israel's vocal supporters here is how much of this is a ploy by Bibi to stay out of jail.
*Netanyahu has a very slender majority, 64 of the 120 seats in the Knesset.
*while he's in power, various corruption investigations and court cases against him have effectively been put on hold. He's highly motivated to keep it that way.
*He's successfully been able to use the war as a reason to defer new elections, so he's in no hurry to have it end. Additionally, 14 members of his coalition are hard-right and have indicated they will leave the coalition if he agrees to a ceasefire. This would likely prompt a new election, though its possible he could buil a new coalition without them.
*he's under a tremendous amount of diplomatic pressure to not invade Rafah and accept a cease-fire.
*he's under a tremendous amount of pressure from his hard right allies to NOT accept a cease-fire, which would probably involve invading Rafah.
Basically, he's kind of caught in a situation where if he wants to stay out of jail he has to stay in power, and if he wants to stay in power he has to keep the war going. But, to do that, he's badly straining diplomatic relations with pretty much all the rest of the world, including the US (which has paused weapons shipments while they wait to see what Israel does, after they seized the border crossing).
I think one aspect of this whole mess that's getting seriously downplayed by all of Israel's vocal supporters here is how much of this is a ploy by Bibi to stay out of jail.
In fairness to narad, I'm assuming he figured i cherry picked a quote critical of Israel/Biden, from an article written to be deliberately provocative. In reality, the main point of the article and Bidens statements were very clearly stated in the headline and about 90% of the article itself. I was just quoting the part that was buried at the bottom, which i believe is accurate and a political response his people are underappreciating.Beyond this, there are also widespread protests against Netanyahu within Israel, and groups representing the hostages still held are pushing for Israel to accept a cease-fire deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...hu-ceasefire-proposal-hamas-rafah-attack-gaza
Israelis rally to demand ceasefire and Netanyahu's resignation
"We hope the world hears us and knows that the people of Israel are not the government of Israel," said one protester.
Makes it a little hard to take whatever sort of nit-picking about the importance of US Jewish groups protests narad is arguing for at face value.
To the second part about the protests in Israel critical of Netanyahu, i totally get it. One of my first posts on this subject was essentially that Bibi continues to endanger his people by stoking fires he can continue to promise to put out as a ploy to stay in office. I'd be pretty frustrated with him too.
Drew
Forum MVP
Yeah, and I mean you and I know we both definitely see eye to eye on this. I just feel like we're in the minority, and that it's something much of America misses, on this topic.
narad
Progressive metal and politics
Well I'm just saying as far as what readers of that quote get out of it, the relevant background knowledge that is not carried in the line I quoted is that these are special interest groups who are not just critical of the way this situation is being handled now (as would probably be the default reading of that sentence) but critical of all similar behavior as part of their founding principles, going back decades. Which is fact, and which if anyone reading it already knew it, shouldn't warrant a response. But in this thread, even that is going to trigger some attempt to bicker about it.
President Joe Biden said for the first time Wednesday he would halt some shipments of American weapons to Israel – which he acknowledged have been used to kill civilians in Gaza – if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders a major invasion of the city of Rafah.
“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week
“I made it clear that if they go into Rafah – they haven’t gone in Rafah yet – if they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities – that deal with that problem,” Biden said.
“Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Biden told CNN’s Erin Burnett in an exclusive interview on “Erin Burnett OutFront,” referring to 2,000-pound bombs that Biden paused shipments of last week
“I made it clear that if they go into Rafah – they haven’t gone in Rafah yet – if they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities – that deal with that problem,” Biden said.
Protests work. Especially in election years.
"Halting weapons shipments to Israel may ‘significantly impair military objectives,’ Israel’s UN ambassador says"
Worth noting Biden admin specifically said they weren't going to release dumb bombs, which have no place in city combat. The fact the IDF are willing to make a stink about that limitation should be telling.
Worth noting Biden admin specifically said they weren't going to release dumb bombs, which have no place in city combat. The fact the IDF are willing to make a stink about that limitation should be telling.
I'm surprised there's less talk about how the IDF basically lied about using AI to coordinate precision strikes with sophisticated guided weapons when almost half were just haphazardly dropped dumb bombs all along.
Israel's military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say
After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in history, experts say.
apnews.com
Military experts discuss Israel's use of unguided bombs and harm to civilians in Gaza
According to reports from CNN and The Washington Post, the U.S. intelligence community believes that up to 45 percent of the bombs Israel has dropped in Gaza were unguided, a tactic that Israel’s military has defended. Geoff Bennett discusses those weapons with retired Air Force Lt. Gen. David...
www.pbs.org
One of the few articles somewhat refuting the characterizations above is this:
Israel’s bombing campaign in Gaza isn’t ‘indiscriminate’
Lost in the discussion are the extensive procedures the IDF uses to enforce tough standards aimed at minimizing civilian deaths and protecting infrastructure.
www.politico.eu
Mark Kimmitt has a history of astro turfing for the US and it's allys when they kill civilians in the Middle East.
Drew
Forum MVP
I mean, while this is probably pushing the bare minimum of what the Biden Administration can do here, I think it's encouraging (and, selfishly, I'm encouraged I read it right
), that Biden's "red line" language wasn't a coincidence, and he WILL take action if Israel invades. At the same time, as small a step as this may be, this is also the most public break we've made with Israel in a LONG time, and the fact they're PISSED kinda suggests it's small but important.
All comes down to what happens next, though. As it is I've seen right wingers bent out of shape that "the President is blocking legally-appropriated congressional funds" trying to paint parallels (that don't exist) with Trump.
Drew
Forum MVP
I'd missed this, thanks. Of course, taking those assertations at face value was awfully tough in the first place, considering how indiscriminate the strikes LOOKED. I don't think this is a surprise to anyone who might care, and anyone who didn't already think this, doesn't care.
