Kahler Users - Enlighten Me!

[Science_Penguin]

The Kahler tremolo has always fascinated me for two major reasons. One- I like the idea of a smoother trem feel over the Floyd's rather stiff action; and two- the fact that the Kahler is retro-fittable to almost any guitar I might want to buy means I (potentially) won't have to shop around for guitars pre-equipped with trems (and thereby most likely wind up settling for a Floyd).

Problem is, they've gained quite a bit of notoriety for their various issues so, naturally, I'm still kind of wary about buying one... But, I know there are people out there who have managed to make the system work for them, and even prefer it over Floyd, and for that reason I'm not yet ready to give up on the idea!

I need to hear from those of you out there to whom the Kahler is the go-to trem over the Floyd- the people who've made the trem work for them despite its alleged flaws- how do you do it?

Some information that might help my understanding is:

-How is your tuning stability overall?
-What do you use the Kahler for- simple vibrato, crazy whammy antics, or both?
-How often do you bend as opposed to dive or pull-up?
-How extreme are the bends you do?
-What, if anything, is your fix for the string bending issues?
-What kind of strings do you use?
-How often do your strings break at the ball-ends?
-What sort of nut do you use? In particular, I'd like to know how well the behind-the-nut stringlock works.

Thanks in advance.

 

[cardinal]

Kahler's still require routing a cavity on the top surface of the guitar under where the bridge will go. I'm just making sure you understand that point: they can retrofit onto most guitars, but if you're willing to route (which you have to do for a Kahler), so will a Floyd Rose.

Tuning stability: it's a single locking system rather than double locking. There's a locking nut, but the bridge doesn't "lock" the strings: the ball end of the string sits in a cradle. Because of the way the bridge holds the string, the ball-end needs to be bent in a particular way, otherwise it doesn't always return to the same position. Not hard to do, but that just explains why some folks might complain about tuning stability: they just don't know this little "secret" to Kahlers.

Kahler still is a floating trem. So it suffers from the same problem as any floating trem: if you bend a string, the others will go flat, too. But Kahler's do tend to be stiffer IMHO than most Floyd setups, so it's less noticable with a Kahler, I think.

I don't think strings are more likely to break with a Kahler than any other trem. You can use any normal string with a ball end at one side.

I prefer a locking nut because it just takes away a friction point. The behind-the-nut lock works as long as the nut is cut well, but you might as well just use locking tuners at that point instead IMHO. Kahler envisioned that nut to work with a zero fret, but since most guitars don't have those, people just stuck them behind a normal nut, which is less than ideal.

It's honestly been a while since I've used one, but I remember thinking that the tension felt very consistent through the arm's travel. A Floyd gets progressively harder and harder to dive or pull up. The Kahler just always feels stiff, but seems to have nearly the same stiffness through the arm's travel, if I recall. I thought it felt odd for subtle vibratos and such because it was so stiff. But for monster dives and pull ups and extreme vibrato, the Kahler felt really nice because the tension was predictable and even, so I found it easier to dive or raise the bar to a specific pitch.

HTH.

 

[Science_Penguin]

Kahler's still require routing a cavity on the top surface of the guitar under where the bridge will go. I'm just making sure you understand that point: they can retrofit onto most guitars, but if you're willing to route (which you have to do for a Kahler), so will a Floyd Rose.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I figure it'll be an easier install than routing out a cavity for the Floyd though. I'm one of those people who, given the choice between more or less tone wood, I'm going to pick more. Besides, I imagine the route is easier to do than making a Floyd cavity...

Tuning stability: it's a single locking system rather than double locking. There's a locking nut, but the bridge doesn't "lock" the strings: the ball end of the string sits in a cradle. Because of the way the bridge holds the string, the ball-end needs to be bent in a particular way, otherwise it doesn't always return to the same position. Not hard to do, but that just explains why some folks might complain about tuning stability: they just don't know this little "secret" to Kahlers.

I've heard about that solution. Seems simple enough.

Kahler still is a floating trem. So it suffers from the same problem as any floating trem: if you bend a string, the others will go flat, too. But Kahler's do tend to be stiffer IMHO than most Floyd setups, so it's less noticable with a Kahler, I think.

That shouldn't be a problem- I usually only bend one string at a time.

I don't think strings are more likely to break with a Kahler than any other trem. You can use any normal string with a ball end at one side.

I've heard it's better to use strings of a higher quality than, say, D'Addarios. Do you believe that's inaccurate?

I prefer a locking nut because it just takes away a friction point. The behind-the-nut lock works as long as the nut is cut well, but you might as well just use locking tuners at that point instead IMHO. Kahler envisioned that nut to work with a zero fret, but since most guitars don't have those, people just stuck them behind a normal nut, which is less than ideal.

I've considered locking tuners and a TUSQ nut, but, from what I heard while researching Hipshot trems, those work better if strings run straight across the nut to the tuners, like on a Strat or Music Man headstock. I'm thinking of putting the Kahler on an Explorer where the strings bend sharply after they pass the nut.

If what you say is correct about the well-cut nut, the behind-the-nut lock might work for me.

It's honestly been a while since I've used one, but I remember thinking that the tension felt very consistent through the arm's travel. A Floyd gets progressively harder and harder to dive or pull up. The Kahler just always feels stiff, but seems to have nearly the same stiffness through the arm's travel, if I recall. I thought it felt odd for subtle vibratos and such because it was so stiff. But for monster dives and pull ups and extreme vibrato, the Kahler felt really nice because the tension was predictable and even, so I found it easier to dive or raise the bar to a specific pitch.

HTH.

Interesting that you describe it as "stiff"- I would never think to associate that word with the Kahler which most people say has a rather "smooth" feel. Maybe it just feels smoother cos, like you say, it stays consistent throughout its travel unlike the Floyd?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Hollowway]

-How is your tuning stability overall?
Good. No different than a Floyd. I don't need to do the soldering on the windings of the ball ends, and I don't have any sticking to the rollers, either.
-What do you use the Kahler for- simple vibrato, crazy whammy antics, or both?
Diving on the lowest strings, simple vibrato on the highest strings because, unfortunately, the unwound strings don't dive very much. Maybe 1.5 steps at the most. That's the biggest issue I have with the Kahler.
-How often do you bend as opposed to dive or pull-up?
I always bend, never pull up.
-How extreme are the bends you do?
I'm a wimp - 1.5 steps at most, usually just 1 step.
-What, if anything, is your fix for the string bending issues?
I have the Kahler and neck set such that the rollers don't have to go up so high that there's a lot of tension on the rollers, which seems to cause the issue.
-What kind of strings do you use?
I've used just about everything under the sun.
-How often do your strings break at the ball-ends?
The usual. Nothing out of the ordinary.
-What sort of nut do you use? In particular, I'd like to know how well the behind-the-nut stringlock works.
Standard Floyd style locknut. The Kahler behind the nut thing is a ridiculous patent workaround that should be taken out behind the shed and shot.

I have 3 8 strings with Kahlers, and multiple 7s and 6s with Floyds. I would pick a Floyd over a Kahler any day of the week, if given the option, because I prefer more of a dive capability on the higher strings. And it's impossible to flutter on a Kahler.

If I were to get a trem retrofit for an existing hardtail guitar, I'd get a Floyd. Why? Because there is no way in hell I am comfortable routing my own already finished guitar. Which means I'd take it to a luthier or tech. Which means they'd be able to route for a Floyd without much trouble, too. Which means I don't have to get a Kahler.

Not to be hating on Kahlers. I think they're good systems. But I like Floyds better.

 

[Science_Penguin]

I'm a wimp - 1.5 steps at most, usually just 1 step.

That's about what I do. As long as that doesn't detune anything I'll be good.

I have the Kahler and neck set such that the rollers don't have to go up so high that there's a lot of tension on the rollers, which seems to cause the issue.

Interesting. And you can get the action you want doing that or is it lower or higher than you're used to?

The Kahler behind the nut thing is a ridiculous patent workaround that should be taken out behind the shed and shot.

You speak from experience on that one? What's wrong with it?

unfortunately, the unwound strings don't dive very much. Maybe 1.5 steps at the most. That's the biggest issue I have with the Kahler...

This one interests me cos you go on to say:

I have 3 8 strings with Kahlers, and multiple 7s and 6s with Floyds

Is the unwound strings not diving far a common trait amongst all Kahlers or do you think it might just be the 8 string trems accounting for the added tension of the low F# and B strings?

If I were to get a trem retrofit for an existing hardtail guitar, I'd get a Floyd. Why? Because there is no way in hell I am comfortable routing my own already finished guitar. Which means I'd take it to a luthier or tech. Which means they'd be able to route for a Floyd without much trouble, too. Which means I don't have to get a Kahler.

Well, there are a few reasons I'd rather have a Kahler retrofit done over a Floyd, (if I do a retrofit at all). I like the idea of having more wood, for one, the luthier I take it to probably won't charge as much for a Kahler route, and if, worst case scenario, it turns out the Kahler doesn't work for me as a trem, I can always switch it to a fixed bridge with no additional mods

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Hollowway]

Yeah, the action is a matter of the rollers being at the right height to put the strings at the ideal height over the frets. Raise the rollers, raise the neck (via shim), or recess the bridge. Lower the rollers, lower the neck or raise the bridge.

And I have zero experience with the Kahler behind the nut clamp. But, there are two possible places you can get string binding on the headstock area: The nut and the tuning pegs. The behind the nut version of the clamp only combats one of these issues. So give the option, why not just combat both?

And the high strings not diving enough is not an issue of the number of strings or tension. The idea is that the high strings go over the cam and as a function of their thin diameter, the center axis of the string is barely deflected by the cam. So the only pitch drop that occurs is a function of the cam bringing the ball end of the bridge toward the nut (due to the straightening of the string's central axis over the cam being only, say, .0045" - half of the .009' diameter on a high E string). But on the thicker strings, the string deflects over the cam more, as a function of its increased diameter. Meaning that the pitch drop is due to the ball moving toward the nut and the straightening of the strings central axis, which is in this case half of .072", or .036". That's a pretty significant difference. How could this be corrected? An asymmetric cam, being thicker on the high strings and thinner on the low strings would be one way to address it.
Now, in a Floyd the pitch drop is exclusively from the ball moving toward the bridge, so this differential doesn't come into play. In both Floyds and Kahlers the location of the ball in relation to the hinge/cam is a factor, but since it's the same for the Floyds and Kahlers we can say that they cancel each other out in the comparison.

And yeah, it would be way easier to cover up a Kahler route, but they are pretty big, so it's not likely that you'll be able to without some fancy footwork. Check out this:

Anyway, I don't mean to discourage you from getting one. It's not like they suck. I just was born and bred on Floyds/

 

[cardinal]

Yeah if you're going to put it on an Explorer locking tuners won't help as much as the behind the nut lock because of the angles involved. But if you're routing the top for the bridge, I'd route the neck for the locking nut IMHO. But if suppose you could try it with the standard nut and can always add the Floyd nut later if the strings are binding at the normal nut.

And folks could debate forever. Some guys like Kahlers a lot. They feel different than a Floyd, and it's a matter of personal taste which one you'd prefer.

And people can also debate this, but I have a hard time believing that the Floyd route diminishes a guitar's tone in any way. Granted, I've never routed a hardtail to a trem, which is really the only way to make a good comparison. But my "biggest" sounding guitars all have Floyds. Maybe those guitars would sound even fatter if that big route wasn't there, but I'm skeptical.

 

[CrazyDean]

Hollowway has some good points, but I am going to give my perspective. I have only had a Kahler on one guitar, a 6 string Gibson. The trem was equipped from the factory. I wouldn't dare route an already finished body myself, but it is quite a bit smaller route than a Floyd.

-How is your tuning stability overall?
Tuning stability was great, even better than the Ibanez Edge. However, I did solder the strings. My trem was already almost 30 years old when I bought it and had gouges from where the string rubbed the trem. So, it wouldn't stay in tune if I didn't solder.
-What do you use the Kahler for- simple vibrato, crazy whammy antics, or both?
I would say it's less versatile than the Floyd. To dive-bomb, you have to touch the body with the bar. Pull-ups are nice and smooth, though. Flutters don't really work.
-How often do you bend as opposed to dive or pull-up?
I bend more often and never had a problem.
-How extreme are the bends you do?
Pretty tame, 1-1.5 steps.
-What, if anything, is your fix for the string bending issues?
Can't comment. Never had an issue, so I never had to fix anything.
-What kind of strings do you use?
D'Addario 9's
-How often do your strings break at the ball-ends?
Never broke a string.
-What sort of nut do you use? In particular, I'd like to know how well the behind-the-nut stringlock works.
This guitar had the behind the nut lock with a plastic nut. It worked great. I was skeptical at first, but I was impressed that it did the job.

 

[Science_Penguin]

@Hollowway- I suppose I can understand the physics behind that... I do notice though that even with the Floyd system, the high B and E strings don't bend that far, and if I want big dives on an unwound string I have to go to G. Is the Kahler really worse in that regard, or is it about the same?

@cardinal- Oh, believe me, I know people can debate forever... before posting this, I read through a lengthy debate on Jemsite from a couple of years ago. Interesting stuff.

@CrazyDean- Well, good to know the behind-the-nut method can work. Shame about the lack of versatility though. I don't flutter all that much, but in particular the dive-bombing concerns me. Is it possible that the cam could be tilted back a bit to allow for more room to dive?