Lots of shootings...

[Andromalia]

Yeah, I saw recently that in the US it is more of a word to describe a woman, whereas the rest of the world it's just slang for reproductive organs and therefore no different to calling someone a dick.

Can you claim exception of truth when clamoring Richard is a dick ?

 

[Xaios]

Can you claim exception of truth when clamoring Richard is a dick ?

 

[StevenC]

Ok, as unlikely as it is for you to come back to the discussion, I think the problem is that, in your last two posts, you didn't make any actual point.



Is that the point you wanted to make?

As far as the statistic mentioned in the paper:



IDK, 4.4% decline in gun violence per year is good. 2.9% decline in non-gun violence per year is also good. One out-of-context statement about how more study is needed doesn't undo the significance of that. But I can see why you didn't quote the more relevant parts of the paper - because these arguments are a lot more subtle. There was a hugely successful suicide prevention program in Australia starting in the mid-1990's. You can't really assign the success of that to the NFA, nor vice-versa, but there's no way to isolate the variable in that system. Gun violence was already trending downward since the early 1990's, which you can see in the graphs, so there's less significance than what is often attributed to the NFA, and maybe that decline in violence had nothing to do with the NFA.

Yeah, those are good points, and the paper does a great job, but the gist of what it's saying just boils down to the old adage "correlation is not causation." But that's not at all the way your argument of "you didn't read the paper!" comes off.

The paper 100% is not saying that the NFA was ineffective at controlling gun violence, it's saying that there were too many other social changes happening all around the same time to isolate the exact cause.

And I think that's exactly why we need to be advocating for more reforms than simply an "assault" weapons ban. However, some sort of reform over gun control laws in the USA is definitely necessary. Whether that means some sort of additional restrictions on certain types of weapons or not, requires some thought, but, if we are talking about mass shootings in general, well, those do tend to generally be associated with certain types of weapons more than others, and we all know that. It also does tend to generally be associated with shooters of a certain age and a certain sex, more than others. And I don't think we ought to profile people based on things outside of their control, but we can openly discriminate against certain objects, and we can do a better job discriminating certain behaviours. I mean, a person on a rooftop with a bolt-action rifle or a shotgun or even a handgun, is going to be less deadly to a crowd of concertgoers or paradewatchers than that same person armed with a high-performance semi-auto rifle with a duffle bag full of extra magazines. Furthermore, if you are hunting for food for survival, the bolt-action rifle or shotgun will likely be a better tool than the rifle in question. Hell, in most home invasions, the hundgun is going to be a better tool than the rifle in question, unless you want to leave a few random holes in your neighbours' walls as well.

So, I guess, what point are you trying to make??

Their point is that they don't know what statistical analysis is.

 

[Bodes]

Read the study @Bodes posted. A logarithmically scaled line chart is not a substitute for statistical analysis. If you think that line chart tells you everything you need to know then you are missing out.

I've made a case for how we could reduce violence without infringing on people's rights. I think they have some merit, and that implementation of those ideas could help save lives.

People here generally don't seem to want to hear that. The consensus here seems to be that prohibition is the solution. That is fine - I didn't expect to change anyone's opinion, just share an additional perspective and some information. I think that is far too rare. People would rather read 40+ pages of dogpiling, insults, and confirmation bias than a single academic paper that @Bodes linked.

Now I can go back to arguing about what 5150 is best.

Ok, so you don't like the links I referred to. That is fine. Why is it that when someone posts statistics or links to academic papers, people, like yourself, say more academic papers are required. However, we are the only ones to provide links and statistics that back up our cases.
Doesn't matter the context of the argument - guns, vaccines, abortion, etc. - the conservative (term used very loosely, here, and apologise to lump people in this category) side of the argument never seem to be able to counter with statistics of their own to back up their side of the argument?

Do I need to link to the video about gun control with John Oliver?

Maybe I could point you towards our official Australian Bureau of Statistics web page on recorded crime which clearly shows that homicides, robberies, uawful entry, etc. reduced quite a lot in the few years after the 1996 gun reforms and continue to stay much lower? Pointing to crimes I would considered to include gun violence.

Yes, yes, again I know. Recorded =/= all crimes as many go unreported. Although I like to think that a big drop in reported crime does correlate, and have causation towards, to a reasonable drop in the level in total crime, both reported and unreported.

Yes sexual crimes and family violence are up, but imagine if Australia had the same attitude to guns as the USA, how different might the homicide rate look?

 

[Fenriswolf]

The problem is that there's not a reliable mechanism in place to make sure that whoever buys said firearm is a guy trying to kill pests on his back 80, or a dude who plans to shoot up a school.

Yes, but the thing is, as this thread goes on, it's further proving my point. I keep finding out laws I've broken because of this thread for dangerous things like making cheese and crossing the street.

How does more laws make sense when there are already so many people are breaking them without knowing it.

 

[CanserDYI]

Yes, but the thing is, as this thread goes on, it's further proving my point. I keep finding out laws I've broken because of this thread for dangerous things like making cheese and crossing the street.

How does more laws make sense when there are already so many people are breaking them without knowing it.

Because we're not really asking for more laws, we're asking for better laws. Less ambiguity, less room for wiggle, better verbage for universal understanding, laws that will be easier to enforce, etc.

We don't want to add to the list, we want to rewrite it.

 

[StevenC]

Yes, but the thing is, as this thread goes on, it's further proving my point. I keep finding out laws I've broken because of this thread for dangerous things like making cheese and crossing the street.

How does more laws make sense when there are already so many people are breaking them without knowing it.

Because you're mixing up what is being said.

It's illegal to import cheese and Kinder Surprise, and people get stopped at border points daily for it. It is basically impossible to buy these things in the USA, because laws that regulate what you can and can't buy are very easy to enforce. If tomorrow the sale of firearms is made illegal, you will find it very hard to find a shop selling then.

The point about crossing the road is about whether America is a free country which, compared to most of Europe, it objectively isn't.

 

[narad]

I find that America is not nearly free enough to tout itself as the land of the free, but, having said that, I'm not sure we should let the main criteria of freedom rest on the ability to have chocolate eggs and cheese.

 

[Glades]

What’s y’all’s opinion on HR1808?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

What’s y’all’s opinion on HR1808?

It's a good start, but it barely cleared the House, so it's pretty much dead in the water.

It's a decent compromise.

Everyone gets to keep their guns that they already have, but they need to properly store them, and you have to do a background check through an intermediary for private sales.

But again, this will never be a law.

Oh well, maybe the next time someone kills a bunch of kids.

 

[GenghisCoyne]

What’s y’all’s opinion on HR1808?

fuck you. no.

 

[Fenriswolf]

Because we're not really asking for more laws, we're asking for better laws. Less ambiguity, less room for wiggle, better verbage for universal understanding, laws that will be easier to enforce, etc.

We don't want to add to the list, we want to rewrite it.

I've actually had this discussion before, and the whole problem with it is people, and the fact that most of the problems go a lot deeper that face value.

I posted earlier about how I have a legitimate need for a rifle like an AR or an AK. Say I get into an argument with my wife (and she's a crazy bitch, not an actual level headed adult like she is), she can call the cops and say I threatened violence against her, boom, gun rights gone until I prove myself innocent in a court of law. On paper, red flag laws are a great idea, but you're crazy if you think there is not a vindictive piece of shit out there that's going to use it as a threat to someone. How many innocent people have to be punished to make sure you catch the bad guys?

And I don't know what better verbiage you need than it is illegal to murder people. It's pretty much the only law that's strong enough we will kill you if you break it. If you're okay with that, are any other laws going to stop you?

That and the people talking about how we need stricter gun laws aren't even capable of googling anything about guns. One of these is a high powered assault rifle round and the other is from a hunting rifle. Care to guess which is which?

Because you're mixing up what is being said.

It's illegal to import cheese and Kinder Surprise, and people get stopped at border points daily for it. It is basically impossible to buy these things in the USA, because laws that regulate what you can and can't buy are very easy to enforce. If tomorrow the sale of firearms is made illegal, you will find it very hard to find a shop selling then.

The point about crossing the road is about whether America is a free country which, compared to most of Europe, it objectively isn't.

Well I've also found out my coworker is into shoes, I was like oh, cool, I'm into cowboy boots, but apparently you can sell a pair of fucking Nikes for $10k. So as far as stuff like that, I'm firmly in the your making stuff up camp. As far as finding a firearm if they were made illegal tomorrow, I live in a state where marijuana is still illegal, but I'll raise you Willie Nelson, Matthew Mcconaughey, and Willie fucking Nelson.

As far as guns go...I'll refer you to this video


You will not stop evil doing evil. And people think that the government that is the poster child for red flag laws (Trail of Tears, slavery, concentration camps in WW2, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation Fast and Furious) has your best interest at heart. Call me crazy, but I trust myself a lot more than the government and cops.

 

[StevenC]

I've actually had this discussion before, and the whole problem with it is people, and the fact that most of the problems go a lot deeper that face value.

I posted earlier about how I have a legitimate need for a rifle like an AR or an AK. Say I get into an argument with my wife (and she's a crazy bitch, not an actual level headed adult like she is), she can call the cops and say I threatened violence against her, boom, gun rights gone until I prove myself innocent in a court of law. On paper, red flag laws are a great idea, but you're crazy if you think there is not a vindictive piece of shit out there that's going to use it as a threat to someone. How many innocent people have to be punished to make sure you catch the bad guys?

And I don't know what better verbiage you need than it is illegal to murder people. It's pretty much the only law that's strong enough we will kill you if you break it. If you're okay with that, are any other laws going to stop you?

That and the people talking about how we need stricter gun laws aren't even capable of googling anything about guns. One of these is a high powered assault rifle round and the other is from a hunting rifle. Care to guess which is which?
View attachment 111693




Well I've also found out my coworker is into shoes, I was like oh, cool, I'm into cowboy boots, but apparently you can sell a pair of fucking Nikes for $10k. So as far as stuff like that, I'm firmly in the your making stuff up camp. As far as finding a firearm if they were made illegal tomorrow, I live in a state where marijuana is still illegal, but I'll raise you Willie Nelson, Matthew Mcconaughey, and Willie fucking Nelson.

As far as guns go...I'll refer you to this video


You will not stop evil doing evil. And people think that the government that is the poster child for red flag laws (Trail of Tears, slavery, concentration camps in WW2, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation Fast and Furious) has your best interest at heart. Call me crazy, but I trust myself a lot more than the government and cops.

Except it's worked in every other county.

 

[mmr007]

I've actually had this discussion before, and the whole problem with it is people, and the fact that most of the problems go a lot deeper that face value.

I posted earlier about how I have a legitimate need for a rifle like an AR or an AK. Say I get into an argument with my wife (and she's a crazy bitch, not an actual level headed adult like she is), she can call the cops and say I threatened violence against her, boom, gun rights gone until I prove myself innocent in a court of law. On paper, red flag laws are a great idea, but you're crazy if you think there is not a vindictive piece of shit out there that's going to use it as a threat to someone. How many innocent people have to be punished to make sure you catch the bad guys?

And I don't know what better verbiage you need than it is illegal to murder people. It's pretty much the only law that's strong enough we will kill you if you break it. If you're okay with that, are any other laws going to stop you?

That and the people talking about how we need stricter gun laws aren't even capable of googling anything about guns. One of these is a high powered assault rifle round and the other is from a hunting rifle. Care to guess which is which?
View attachment 111693




Well I've also found out my coworker is into shoes, I was like oh, cool, I'm into cowboy boots, but apparently you can sell a pair of fucking Nikes for $10k. So as far as stuff like that, I'm firmly in the your making stuff up camp. As far as finding a firearm if they were made illegal tomorrow, I live in a state where marijuana is still illegal, but I'll raise you Willie Nelson, Matthew Mcconaughey, and Willie fucking Nelson.

As far as guns go...I'll refer you to this video


You will not stop evil doing evil. And people think that the government that is the poster child for red flag laws (Trail of Tears, slavery, concentration camps in WW2, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation Fast and Furious) has your best interest at heart. Call me crazy, but I trust myself a lot more than the government and cops.

If you have a crazy wife who falsely accuses you of a violent crime to the police your biggest concern is you have to surrender your gun until it gets sorted out? um....ok

Also I missed your earlier post you mentioned but why do you need an AR or AK?

Also, I will be honest the minutiae of caliber and shell casing size doesn't matter when not only could either split a child's head open like a melon, it does so with great regularity in this country.

 

[Fenriswolf]

If you have a crazy wife who falsely accuses you of a violent crime to the police your biggest concern is you have to surrender your gun until it gets sorted out? um....ok

Also I missed your earlier post you mentioned but why do you need an AR or AK?

Also, I will be honest the minutiae of caliber and shell casing size doesn't matter when not only could either split a child's head open like a melon, it does so with great regularity in this country.

Yes, because at that point you are guilty of thought crime.

Because I have property out in the country, that has a large population of a violent, invasive species of animal, and to put it into not country terms, I have a higher K ratio than John Wick.

 

[Shoeless_jose]

Yes, because at that point you are guilty of thought crime.

Because I have property out in the country, that has a large population of a violent, invasive species of animal, and to put it into not country terms, I have a higher K ratio than John Wick.

I really hope your ratio is good using your gun to kill pigs. Hope you get some food out of them at least too.

 

[Adieu]

I posted earlier about how I have a legitimate need for a rifle like an AR or an AK. Say I get into an argument with my wife (and she's a crazy bitch, not an actual level headed adult like she is), she can call the cops and say I threatened violence against her, boom, gun rights gone until I prove myself innocent in a court of law. On paper, red flag laws are a great idea, but you're crazy if you think there is not a vindictive piece of shit out there that's going to use it as a threat to someone. How many innocent people have to be punished to make sure you catch the bad guys?

And I don't know what better verbiage you need than it is illegal to murder people. It's pretty much the only law that's strong enough we will kill you if you break it. If you're okay with that, are any other laws going to stop you?

That and the people talking about how we need stricter gun laws aren't even capable of googling anything about guns. One of these is a high powered assault rifle round and the other is from a hunting rifle. Care to guess which is which?
View attachment 111693




Well I've also found out my coworker is into shoes, I was like oh, cool, I'm into cowboy boots, but apparently you can sell a pair of fucking Nikes for $10k. So as far as stuff like that, I'm firmly in the your making stuff up camp. As far as finding a firearm if they were made illegal tomorrow, I live in a state where marijuana is still illegal, but I'll raise you Willie Nelson, Matthew Mcconaughey, and Willie fucking Nelson.

As far as guns go...I'll refer you to this video


You will not stop evil doing evil. And people think that the government that is the poster child for red flag laws (Trail of Tears, slavery, concentration camps in WW2, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation Fast and Furious) has your best interest at heart. Call me crazy, but I trust myself a lot more than the government and cops.

Wtf is a LEGITIMATE NEED...for an *AK*???

Is enemy infantry storming your bunker?

 

[narad]

I posted earlier about how I have a legitimate need for a rifle like an AR or an AK. Say I get into an argument with my wife (and she's a crazy bitch, not an actual level headed adult like she is), she can call the cops and say I threatened violence against her, boom, gun rights gone until I prove myself innocent in a court of law. On paper, red flag laws are a great idea, but you're crazy if you think there is not a vindictive piece of shit out there that's going to use it as a threat to someone. How many innocent people have to be punished to make sure you catch the bad guys?

Is this satire?

You're basically saying if there is a domestic dispute with and a guy actually threatens her (and probably calls her a crazy bitch), that he should be able to keep his AR or AK, and then inevitably in some cases go back and shoot her, because it would be a shame to inconvenience people like yourself. As sad as that is, it also didn't do anything to help provide an argument of why you should even have one in the first place.

 

[narad]

You will not stop evil doing evil. And people think that the government that is the poster child for red flag laws (Trail of Tears, slavery, concentration camps in WW2, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Operation Fast and Furious) has your best interest at heart. Call me crazy, but I trust myself a lot more than the government and cops.

And stop with the tautologies. We all trust ourselves more than the government or cops. But I trust the government or cops a lot more than I trust the typical person who wants an AK or AR.

The government does bad things. But it also does good things. Listing either is neither useful to the idea that your guns are necessary or able to do anything against the government. The government, which is of course not some singular enemy, but a bunch of americans following the orders of other americans who were elected by americans-at-large and put in charge of military equipment so unfathomably more advanced that it comparatively makes your collective arsenal look like a ballistic analog of micropenis.

 

[Adieu]

Yeah... that.

If I can't have Patriot missile defense systems, wtf am I gonna do with a single AK? Other than cap some rando civilians in the ass, which is the exact concern people have about private owners of AKs