New Rings of Saturn

[DarkWolfXV]

Anyone who says that this or new Within the Ruins is "midi" or "programmed guitar" is, I'm sorry, dumb and out of touch with this world. As someone who actually does a lot of recording, I know that it's impossible for a midi guitar to sound like this. The most realistic one I've heard can't be tuned to DROP FVCKING C AN OCTAVE LOWER, but merely to "standard" E standard, and if you pitch shifted it that far it'd sound like absolute shit. You could reamp guitar pro 6's RSE, but the results don't sound like a real guitar in the slightest (Lucas Mann's solo project might be gp6, however, but definitely not this or WTR). What is done here is that everything is recorded note-by-note, as in you hit record, pluck one note or more (doesn't even have to be DI and reamped later, you can just use a straight amp sound), stop recording, cut notes to size and set them in the grid, with slight fades connecting the notes, and then repeat until you're done. Record pick scrapes, "rakes" and bends by punching in with a 4-click before the place you want the note in. Same with pull offs, hammer ons and tapping, although you can also use half (or whatever) speed for that and then speed it up to the desired tempo (These are best not recorded note by note because it's hard to fabricate the smooth transition of these notes). If you want it to sound realistic, every note must be unique (as in, no copying parts and individual notes) and you have to place every note by hand, with the slightest offsets in the grid, not resorting to quantizing. The cons of this is obviously that the method is time consuming. The pros however, you get a performance that is extremely tight, with no mistakes, guitars that are recorded note-by-note sound clearer due to notes not blending into eachother and each note having defined attack, guitars can be recorded to have extremely consistent dynamics without the use of a compressor meaning that you can set your gain lower and still have a powerful sound, resulting in more clarity and punch (due to square wave rectification not mangling your signal nearly as much). Most of the "fakeness" of RoS's guitar sound is the lulzy, dissonant, alien-like riffs they play and the speed they play them at. If a slam song was recorded note-by-note, smothered in the amount of gain usual for the genre, no one would ever notice.

 

[Icecold]

Retired circus animals have it WAY BETTER than washed up wrestling stars...Way Better.

This is the Truth.

 

[Kwert]

Anyone who says that this or new Within the Ruins is "midi" or "programmed guitar" is, I'm sorry, dumb and out of touch with this world. As someone who actually does a lot of recording, I know that it's impossible for a midi guitar to sound like this. The most realistic one I've heard can't be tuned to DROP FVCKING C AN OCTAVE LOWER, but merely to "standard" E standard, and if you pitch shifted it that far it'd sound like absolute shit. You could reamp guitar pro 6's RSE, but the results don't sound like a real guitar in the slightest (Lucas Mann's solo project might be gp6, however, but definitely not this or WTR). What is done here is that everything is recorded note-by-note, as in you hit record, pluck one note or more (doesn't even have to be DI and reamped later, you can just use a straight amp sound), stop recording, cut notes to size and set them in the grid, with slight fades connecting the notes, and then repeat until you're done. Record pick scrapes, "rakes" and bends by punching in with a 4-click before the place you want the note in. Same with pull offs, hammer ons and tapping, although you can also use half (or whatever) speed for that and then speed it up to the desired tempo (These are best not recorded note by note because it's hard to fabricate the smooth transition of these notes). If you want it to sound realistic, every note must be unique (as in, no copying parts and individual notes) and you have to place every note by hand, with the slightest offsets in the grid, not resorting to quantizing. The cons of this is obviously that the method is time consuming. The pros however, you get a performance that is extremely tight, with no mistakes, guitars that are recorded note-by-note sound clearer due to notes not blending into eachother and each note having defined attack, guitars can be recorded to have extremely consistent dynamics without the use of a compressor meaning that you can set your gain lower and still have a powerful sound, resulting in more clarity and punch (due to square wave rectification not mangling your signal nearly as much). Most of the "fakeness" of RoS's guitar sound is the lulzy, dissonant, alien-like riffs they play and the speed they play them at. If a slam song was recorded note-by-note, smothered in the amount of gain usual for the genre, no one would ever notice.

Why the hell would you ever want to record music in that manner? Is this what people find appealing to listen to now? Tightness is great and all, but doing things that way essentially takes the human element out of making music. You're not really creating something compelling, in the moment, when you're punching in note by note.

 

[Vhyle]

Why the hell would you ever want to record music in that manner? Is this what people find appealing to listen to now? Tightness is great and all, but doing things that way essentially takes the human element out of making music. You're not really creating something compelling, in the moment, when you're punching in note by note.

So much this. Anyone who does record in that manner, has lost a lot of respect in my eyes. And I personally grew out of the robotic sound stage years ago. I like my metal to sound like it was captured by humans, not fscking Nintendo-brain alien dickbags from the planet Zarlon, like these guys are doing.

If you want to tighten up your playing in your recordings, practice your parts more. It's as simple as that.

And if it's of any merit - I record a lot of music as well.

 

[fps]

Why the hell would you ever want to record music in that manner? Is this what people find appealing to listen to now? Tightness is great and all, but doing things that way essentially takes the human element out of making music. You're not really creating something compelling, in the moment, when you're punching in note by note.

Surely this is up to the individual artist.

We're talking on a forum where flipping Meshuggah are the godparents of the favoured style, and there are complaints about taking the human element out.

 

[Kwert]

Surely this is up to the individual artist.

We're talking on a forum where flipping Meshuggah are the godparents of the favoured style, and there are complaints about taking the human element out.

You're not wrong, it is up to the individual artist.

Maybe I'm a traditionalist though, and given my musical background I feel that what makes a performance, whether it be recorded or live, interesting and captivating are the individual subtleties and nuances of the performers.

I know this is personal opinion, and not everyone will have the same viewpoint, but I find it hard to understand how people could find overly processed, same-y sounding recordings interesting in any way beyond "Wow that's technically impressive." Technical wizardry is not making music.

In regards to Meshuggah, their earlier material had this really pissed off, ballsy feel and sound to it. There was aggressiveness in the playing that I feel bands like RoS lack - and that's what I would qualify as the human element.

People have been comparing how RoS does things to electronic music. Good electronic music still manages to create a sense of atmosphere and intent, whereas stuff like this does not (again, just my opinion).

 

[fps]

You're not wrong, it is up to the individual artist.

Maybe I'm a traditionalist though, and given my musical background I feel that what makes a performance, whether it be recorded or live, interesting and captivating are the individual subtleties and nuances of the performers.

I know this is personal opinion, and not everyone will have the same viewpoint, but I find it hard to understand how people could find overly processed, same-y sounding recordings interesting in any way beyond "Wow that's technically impressive." Technical wizardry is not making music.

In regards to Meshuggah, their earlier material had this really pissed off, ballsy feel and sound to it. There was aggressiveness in the playing that I feel bands like RoS lack - and that's what I would qualify as the human element.

People have been comparing how RoS does things to electronic music. Good electronic music still manages to create a sense of atmosphere and intent, whereas stuff like this does not (again, just my opinion).

I agree, in that I am not really a big fan of ultra-processed, quantized, de-humanised stuff. Djent, for instance, I just can't, I've tried with many bands, and the production in particular I just can't get on with, it's a barrier.

Yet I find something appealing about that approach taken to its logical conclusion with this band though, I can't help it!

 

[Dr Zoidberg]

I dunno. Criticizing Rings of Saturn for not sounding "human" is like criticizing Meshuggah for not writing catchy choruses, or criticizing Deathspell Omega for not being cheerful enough. I mean, it's totally fine to not like a band for a reason like that, but it doesn't make them an objectively bad band; it just means that you're not their target audience.

 

[fps]

I dunno. Criticizing Rings of Saturn for not sounding "human" is like criticizing Meshuggah for not writing catchy choruses, or criticizing Deathspell Omega for not being cheerful enough. I mean, it's totally fine to not like a band for a reason like that, but it doesn't make them an objectively bad band; it just means that you're not their target audience.

Agree in general, but the point surely isn't an audience, it's that this is how they want to make their music.

 

[Dr Zoidberg]

Agree in general, but the point surely isn't an audience, it's that this is how they want to make their music.

Yes, good point, I could have phrased that better. I suppose by "audience" I meant the people that like the music that the musicians want to make - but of course this is a secondary motivation and doesn't actively shape the style of the music.

 

[DarkWolfXV]

Why the hell would you ever want to record music in that manner? Is this what people find appealing to listen to now? Tightness is great and all, but doing things that way essentially takes the human element out of making music. You're not really creating something compelling, in the moment, when you're punching in note by note.

Nowadays, almost every band produced by Joey Sturgis or Cameron Mizell (95% of Rise Records, Fearless Records and such) is produced this way. This is the modern way of doing "professional" records on big labels, the ones which actually make money. And yes, I find this extremely appealing to listen to. Records produced by them sonically outperform everything else in the "metal" game. An example of a "modern" record done this way is "Divided By" by Structures:

Here is the instrumental version without the clip-fest occuring on the final version of the album. Produced by Will Putney, not Sturgis or Mizell, though.
If I didn't tell you this is recorded note-by-note, you probably would never notice. They obviously can play what they recorded. Same with Within the Ruins and Rings of Saturn.

 

[fps]

Nowadays, almost every band produced by Joey Sturgis or Cameron Mizell (95% of Rise Records, Fearless Records and such) is produced this way. This is the modern way of doing "professional" records on big labels, the ones which actually make money. And yes, I find this extremely appealing to listen to. Records produced by them sonically outperform everything else in the "metal" game. An example of a "modern" record done this way is "Divided By" by Structures:

Here is the instrumental version without the clip-fest occuring on the final version of the album. Produced by Will Putney, not Sturgis or Mizell, though.
If I didn't tell you this is recorded note-by-note, you probably would never notice. They obviously can play what they recorded. Same with Within the Ruins and Rings of Saturn.

Silly to say "outperform". Not only is it a matter of taste how records are recorded and sound, but these records sell modest amounts, and I don't see industry people raving about the production quality, so outperform really is the wrong term.

 

[wat]

^That was bad music for bad people

 

[WhiteWalls]

Unfortunately that was a bad example because structures cannot play their music live. I saw them twice and they were not even close to acceptable, especially considering that they're mostly known for their technical style.

It may be a bit harsh to say but many of those bands have to be recorded that way because they are not good enough to create a professional sounding record otherwise. And that's FINE, but I don't think that makes them immune to criticism just because "things are done this way in 2014".
There are some welcomed exceptions that do it purely for artistic reasons (Within the Ruins), but those are very rare.

 

[Emperor Guillotine]

but these records sell modest amounts, and I don't see industry people raving about the production quality, so outperform really is the wrong term.

But I see every single Rise Records or Fearless Records band going to Sturgis...and he's raking in the cash...

And now apparently every Sumerian band is going to Will Putney...and he's raking in the cash...

 

[DarkWolfXV]

By "This is the modern way of doing "professional" records on big labels, the ones which actually make money", I meant that "professional records on big labels that make money are made this way". You can't deny that Emmure, Attila, Asking Alexandria or Crown the Empire (Victory, Artery, Sumerian and Rise, respectively) make quite a bit. I did not mean that Within the Ruins, Rings of Saturn or Structures are one of those bands making "quite a bit", I meant that these are the bands using the same production style as those "big label, making quite a bit of money" bands. I do agree that WtR, RoS or Structures only have a "modest" income. I should make my point more clear next time.

 

[fps]

By "This is the modern way of doing "professional" records on big labels, the ones which actually make money", I meant that "professional records on big labels that make money are made this way". You can't deny that Emmure, Attila, Asking Alexandria or Crown the Empire (Victory, Artery, Sumerian and Rise, respectively) make quite a bit. I did not mean that Within the Ruins, Rings of Saturn or Structures are one of those bands making "quite a bit", I meant that these are the bands using the same production style as those "big label, making quite a bit of money" bands. I do agree that WtR, RoS or Structures only have a "modest" income. I should make my point more clear next time.

I think it's a significant indication of how much smaller the metal industry is these days that bands use these kinds of micro-recording approaches, because it shows the home-made, lower quality computerised sound is where bands are interested in laying their hat sound-wise, and that sound and approach is embedded in the current musical trends in part due to the budgetary limitations of the artists who are at the creative "forefront" online.

 

[Nats]

When Rings of Saturn does a pushup, they aren't lifting themselves up, they're pushing the Earth down.

Rings of Saturn do not sleep. They wait.

There is no chin behind Rings of Saturns’ beard. There is only another fist.

 

[SD83]

I think it's a significant indication of how much smaller the metal industry is these days that bands use these kinds of micro-recording approaches, because it shows the home-made, lower quality computerised sound is where bands are interested in laying their hat sound-wise, and that sound and approach is embedded in the current musical trends in part due to the budgetary limitations of the artists who are at the creative "forefront" online.

Are you saying that this is the equivalent to the early black metal sounding like crap due to crappy equipment and the entire genre copying that sound as it was the only trve black metal sound?

 

[fps]

Are you saying that this is the equivalent to the early black metal sounding like crap due to crappy equipment and the entire genre copying that sound as it was the only trve black metal sound?

Is that from the Burzum discussion in the other thread? Yes I guess I am. Although I wouldn't say it sounds like crap, it's certainly not a pleasing sound to me. Possibly a little off topic, I think Meshuggah, the grandaddy of most of what this "forefront" is offering, in terms of machine-like sound, actually have some very alive sounding albums, DEI, Nothing and Koloss all being significantly more crushing and organic than a lot of the bands that have evolved out of Periphery/ AAL love.

But we are talking about metal production, and some of the best records of all time are not only not hindered, but enhanced by less than ideal production. My main point is economic restrictions brought about by a decrease in interest in rock and metal mean no-one is really raking it in, and the ultra-digital recording style only works for a very small percentage of the bands who are using it (eg RoS) and to the detriment of a lot of other bands, who would quite possibly do something different, and sound a lot better, if they had a budget that allowed them to consider a different option.