Old 90's "Custom Guitars" ESPs

[Swarm]

So what's the scuttlebutt on these? I've read conflicting info, some people say it's the same thing as a Standard Series, others disagree, I saw a post about Stef Carpenter's baby blue custom ordered Horizon that said Custom Guitars on the back... Hard to really know it seems. I gotta say my MII "CG" is a great guitar, but how much better would a Kiso made bolt on KH-2 be? Would it be worth it fretwork wise etc... Any of you own both CG, SS and CS/OS to compare?

 

[narad]

CG isn't a different tier designation. It's just a logo that's on some guitars.
Also it's pretty rare for Kiso to make a bolt-on anything. That's probably not "K" for Kiso in that case.

 

[cardinal]

I've owned a lot of ESPs. The ones since '17 in the Tokyo shop seem the most consistently great. I recently had a '90s MII with insanely good fretwork (action could get ridiculously low) but the truss rod was maxed out. I've had Kisos and SS with dodgy fretwork but most are really good.

 

[Swarm]

CG isn't a different tier designation. It's just a logo that's on some guitars.
Also it's pretty rare for Kiso to make a bolt-on anything. That's probably not "K" for Kiso in that case.

What would it be for? I see a lot of KH2 with a K serial number, just curious

 

[cardinal]

What would it be for? I see a lot of KH2 with a K serial number, just curious

the Hammett bolt ons often have K-#### serials, but that's not for Kiso (which were more like K##### (no hyphen)). The neck-through Hammett of that era did have Kiso serial numbers, from what I've seen. Otherwise, bolt-ons of that era had S serial numbers (for Sado) or SS (standard series).

 

[MetalDestroyer]

My early 2000s custom is closer to my standard series than to either my Kiso or the original series I had

 

[dima qb]

"Custom guitars" stamp was placed on ESP export guitars
For Japan domestic market ESP didn't do this, just stamped serial number or even didn't write anything, just write some information for internal use under PU or in the neck pocket.
They start use digits since mid 90's and K\S\T\CH since 00's.

K serial on Kirk bolt on guitars does not mean Kiso, it means "Kirk model"
I also saw "J" serial for James model. ESP used it for year or two.

 

[Nightside]

It was the original series before they had a standard series and needed to call the original series the original series. Ones for export had the custom guitars sticker. Ones made for the Japanese market didn't have the sticker.

 

[narad]

It was the original series before they had a standard series and needed to call the original series the original series. Ones for export had the custom guitars sticker. Ones made for the Japanese market didn't have the sticker.

That doesn't really make a ton of sense to try to equate their old workshop quality to one of the modern tiers.

 

[mehegama]

That doesn't really make a ton of sense to try to equate their old workshop quality to one of the modern tiers.

That is true, there is not a direct mapping of what they were doing back in the 90s with the multiple workshops vs the modern lines. The current original series are really custom shop guitars, based on the original models they introduced in the late 80s and early 90s, with prespecified specs and they allow you only to do small changes like the finish or the pickups etc.
The standard series are closer to their mass produced factory stuff (in the late 90s they even called them "standard models" in some catalogs). Most of these were not custom shop or hand made or anything.
The word "custom" has been used (or abused) by many guitar companies, ESP included. For example in the early days you had the ESP customs vs the ESP Deluxe that really meant neck thru vs bolt on (plus a few other minor tweaks)

 

[Nightside]

That doesn't really make a ton of sense to try to equate their old workshop quality to one of the modern tiers.

Yeah it does. That's like trying to say you can't compare a custom select or whatever a USA Jackson is called these days to a 90s USA Jackson. It's the same story actually. When Jackson first started the only series was the handmade USA stuff so there was no need to give the series a name until others came about. Just like the Esp guitars were all Japanese handmades until the standard series standardized models on a production line. The original series is called the original series because it's literally the original models and way of building them. I had an MII Deluxe from 1995 that had a black pearl pickguard and no back cover plate for the tremolo. It was ordered that way in Japan because you could do that. Just like you can change things up on an original series still now because they are made to order and not mass produced on an assembly line.

 

[Nightside]

The word "custom" has been used (or abused) by many guitar companies, ESP included. For example in the early days you had the ESP customs vs the ESP Deluxe that really meant neck thru vs bolt on (plus a few other minor tweaks)

They were doing the Gibson thing like a LP Custom being a higher spec model than an LP Deluxe. Ihsahn actually started in Emperor with an Esp MII style called a Junior.

 

[narad]

Yeah it does. That's like trying to say you can't compare a custom select or whatever a USA Jackson is called these days to a 90s USA Jackson. It's the same story actually. When Jackson first started the only series was the handmade USA stuff so there was no need to give the series a name until others came about. Just like the Esp guitars were all Japanese handmades until the standard series standardized models on a production line. The original series is called the original series because it's literally the original models and way of building them. I had an MII Deluxe from 1995 that had a black pearl pickguard and no back cover plate for the tremolo. It was ordered that way in Japan because you could do that. Just like you can change things up on an original series still now because they are made to order and not mass produced on an assembly line.

You can compare whatever you want, but it's the causal story that is nonsensical. People try really hard to call the old ones custom shop or original series equivalent, because modern custom shop or original series are super expensive. But they're not made by the same people, in the same way, with the same materials, for the same price points, so the sensible thing to do is to just not try to label old guitars with modern labels and draw false equivalences.

 

[mehegama]

Just like the Esp guitars were all Japanese handmades until the standard series standardized models on a production line.

This is not accurate. The early models were not handmade in the custom shop. What you see in the catalogues are factory models and are not custom shop hand made guitars.
I m sure the processes are not the same as today and there might have been more manual work on those, but they were not the equivalent of today’s custom shop.
The only thing is the same then and now is the Japan custom shop orders (including today’s Original Series)

 

[Nightside]

You can compare whatever you want, but it's the causal story that is nonsensical. People try really hard to call the old ones custom shop or original series equivalent, because modern custom shop or original series are super expensive. But they're not made by the same people, in the same way, with the same materials, for the same price points, so the sensible thing to do is to just not try to label old guitars with modern labels and draw false equivalences.

No I feel like maybe it's your failure to grasp the concept that seems nonsensical but we've been down this road before with the old "the only real alternative" slogan being too ambiguous to determine the meaning behind a company that produces cheaper alternatives to USA guitars in a country where many other companies were also producing cheaper alternatives to USA guitars using it. Calling the original series the original series is kind of a giveaway. Why else would they call it the original series? Sometimes it seems like you try really hard to miss the point.

I never said an 80s or 90s Esp is a modern original series. I said it's what became the original series. The Mirage/MII Custom and Deluxe from the 80s and 90s were the original series before there was a need to differentiate from a standard series. The standard series didn't have MII Deluxe or Custom (apart from special run of standard series customs not long before the rebranding of the standard series) they were just plain MII on the headstock for all of them.

Let me guess, you can't compare a standard series to an Ltd elite or Eii either...

This is not accurate. The early models were not handmade in the custom shop. What you see in the catalogues are factory models and are not custom shop hand made guitars.
I m sure the processes are not the same as today and there might have been more manual work on those, but they were not the equivalent of today’s custom shop.
The only thing is the same then and now is the Japan custom shop orders (including today’s Original Series)

Tell me which guitar company that's been in business for 40 years or more still makes guitars the same way with the same people doing the same processes in the same shop. Jackson? Gibson? Ibanez? Fender?

There is no THE custom shop with Esp. They have many shops that handle different things.

They are a huge company that has a school training tons of people to build guitars so I would be surprised if the same people who made them 35 years ago were still making them now.

 

[narad]

No I feel like maybe it's your failure to grasp the concept that seems nonsensical but we've been down this road before with the old "the only real alternative" slogan being too ambiguous to determine the meaning behind a company that produces cheaper alternatives to USA guitars in a country where many other companies were also producing cheaper alternatives to USA guitars using it.

Oh, you're that guy...

Let me guess, you can't compare a standard series to an Ltd elite or Eii either...

That's just simple branding renaming. It's not the creation different quality tiers, with different manufacturing techniques, relocating, reorganizing, across huge spans of time. But even over time these things lose comparability, too. See the "where are Edwards made when" debate.

I don't care what you want to think to yourself. But I am annoyed when seller after seller refers to their old ESP as custom shop, by virtue of it being old, when no literal custom shops nor custom shop brands existed.

 

[Nightside]

Oh, you're that guy...



That's just simple branding renaming. It's not the creation different quality tiers, with different manufacturing techniques, relocating, reorganizing, across huge spans of time. But even over time these things lose comparability, too. See the "where are Edwards made when" debate.

I don't care what you want to think to yourself. But I am annoyed when seller after seller refers to their old ESP as custom shop, by virtue of it being old, when no literal custom shops nor custom shop brands existed.

Who said it's a custom? Of course there are people who will try to prey on others by trying to say a guitar is custom made because it says MII Custom or Eclipse Custom on the front of the headstock or because there's an Esp Custom Guitars decal on the back. That doesn't mean it wasn't the same tier level that was later branded the original series.

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you try to say there were no custom shops or custom shop brands back then. You do know that Jackson, Charvel, Schecter, and Esp all started as custom shops modifying existing guitars, making custom parts for guitars, and creating full custom guitars. Have you heard of the George Lynch or Kirk Hammett or James Hetfield guitars? You know they were custom ordered and custom made right?

And again, you keep saying that it's not comparable because they've relocated and a very vague "changing manufacturing techniques" like Jackson hasn't done the same thing. Yet, apart from a few people trying to inflate the value of their old Jacksons by claiming the ones built under FMIC are inferior, nobody says a modern USA Select isn't the same tier as a 80s or 90s USA Jackson.

 

[mehegama]

There is no THE custom shop with Esp. They have many shops that handle different things.

Yes I know well the factories and shops ESP had and have now. I use the world "custom shop" to distinguish the hand made ones by custom orders + original series from the mass produced models.
My point was that what you said "Just like the Esp guitars were all Japanese handmades until the standard series standardized models on a production line." is simply not accurate. They always offered production models and custom orders since day one. Even when they started as a parts company super early on they were mostly using machines. Hand made stuff were only happening for custom orders, and even there i m sure some process might have been automated.

This is an extract from their 1984 where they offered mostly strat and tele variations, before making their iconic models:

 

[Nightside]

Yes I know well the factories and shops ESP had and have now. I use the world "custom shop" to distinguish the hand made ones by custom orders + original series from the mass produced models.
My point was that what you said "Just like the Esp guitars were all Japanese handmades until the standard series standardized models on a production line." is simply not accurate. They always offered production models and custom orders since day one. Even when they started as a parts company super early on they were mostly using machines. Hand made stuff were only happening for custom orders, and even there i m sure some process might have been automated.

This is an extract from their 1984 where they offered mostly strat and tele variations, before making their iconic models:

View attachment 145904

I see they mention tuning machines but I'm pretty sure they have been using Gotoh tuners since forever. Has Esp ever made their own tuners? I'm still looking for the part that is supposed to refute what I'm saying. So far all that page says is that every Esp from every price point is made exactly the same way which is exactly what I'm saying. Then I'm saying that is what became the original series when the assembly line standard series was created. Even the standard series didn't have it's own factory for a long time and people who worked on original series or customs could have touched a standard at some point as well. Even the standard series which was supposed to be standard set specs were able to have slight customizations like color, hardware, and pickup changes. Then there were the dealer special run custom standard series popularised by B music before the whole scheme ended with the rebranding.

Idk it seems like you guys are getting butt hurt because you think I'm trying to say that the old Esps are the same quality as what Esp original series/custom shop makes now. Which is an odd thing to think seeing as the ad you just posted says they built all their guitars from every price point to the same standard. I don't know what they are doing right now. The most recent Esps I've played are from 2008 and 2012. I can't say if the quality is still the same. Back then it was. A 90s MII Custom with the Custom Guitars sticker on the back was just as well built and playable as the custom KH4 and Alexi Arrowhead I played. Maybe because they were all made in the Kiss shop?

 

[Nightside]

I know! Why don't we just put this debate to rest once and for all by going and having a look at the original series out of production page on the Esp Japan official website! It sure looks to me like the 90s MII Custom and Deluxe are right there on the original series page. Why would they do that? Are they stupid? Don't they know that's just not accurate? Don't they know that they changed techniques over such a long time span that it's just not comparable??

ESP Original Series -M-II-