PSA: Volume is not Tone.

[TedEH]

That doesn't make it a good experience, though.

 

[budda]

That doesn't make it a good experience, though.

So far so good.

 

[TedEH]

So far so good.

I don't know what you're referring to. This whole thread has been full of examples of too loud = bad, and only the rare case where things happen to work out.

 

[budda]

I don't know what you're referring to. This whole thread has been full of examples of too loud = bad, and only the rare case where things happen to work out.

Ah, sorry.

We are a loud band. So far so good.

 

[TedEH]

I mean... there's loud, and then there's doom/stoner loud. I've seen plenty of loud bands that sounded good, but there's a limit. Lots of music is played loud just sort of by default, the problem becomes when loud progresses into being way too much. I've been to plenty of shows where the band thought they put on a great show and nobody wanted to tell them to their face that the volume made it painful to watch.

If you're not getting complained to by the sound guys at the venues you play, then you might not be as loud as the examples I'm thinking of. We've probably played a lot of the same venues - I've had sound guys in Toronto / Ottawa / Quebec / etc tell me I'm too loud and I don't think of myself as a "loud" guitarist. They're definitely not shy about telling people when it's too much.

 

[TedEH]

I think there's also an argument to be made for audience members who are ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of the damage they're doing to their own hearing for the sake of "the experience". "Wow, that was intense, I wont be able to hear anything for days!" is not positive feedback in my mind, even if it was intended to be.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Ah, sorry.

We are a loud band. So far so good.

That's the point of the thread at the beginning. Basically, nothing wrong with being stupid loud unless you're replacing sounding good with being loud. There are lots of bands that sound good and are super loud. There are A LOT of regional/local-level bands that don't know the difference or don't care, and they suck to see live. Most of them just play some variation on 0-3-5-6-12 frets on the low string for 40 minutes, and that also sucks to see live.

 

[budda]

@GunpointMetal my takeaway has also been that most people posting just dont like super loud bands, even if they are dialled in.

 

[TedEH]

I actually do like the loud band thing, but within reason. There's loud, and then there's nothing-is-audible-anymore loud. And there's volume used to compensate for bad tone.
I'm also of the opinion that the loudness should come from the sound guy, not from stage volume. If your stage volume overpowers everything before PA support gets involved, you're sabotaging your own show.

 

[budda]

Then you dont like the loud band thing

 

[TedEH]

I guess not.

 

[GunpointMetal]

I actually do like the loud band thing, but within reason. There's loud, and then there's nothing-is-audible-anymore loud. And there's volume used to compensate for bad tone.
I'm also of the opinion that the loudness should come from the sound guy, not from stage volume. If your stage volume overpowers everything before PA support gets involved, you're sabotaging your own show.

I don't think it needs to be on the soundguy necessarily. If the sound guy says "Hey, your stacks are making it impossible for me to get the kick and vocals heard in the room" then you should probably listen to the sound guy. But IME bands that DO sound good loud, no how to adjust for the room so they can still rumble all the juevos and still present something that can be enjoyable, versus just visceral.

 

[jsmalleus]

There's a local dive bar where lots of Stoner/Doom bands come through. We love the venue and playing there and going to shows there, but the house PA is probably worth $150 and understandably, they frequently don't mic drums at all. I've seen some great, loud bands handle it well and do great shows there, and then there's the ones who need their amp on 11 no matter what. If you don't know how live sound works enough to stage your volumes properly to account for the venue and gear, and the crowd can't hear ANY trace of the drums over your amps, you should probably sit at home and riff and forget being in a band in the first place. By all means crank the bajeebus out of it if the equipment is there, but don't be a prick, pay attention and don't go way up above the noise ceiling for the other members of your band.

 

[Mprinsje]

A lot of shows we play the drums are miced out and the sound guy asks us if we want our cabs miced up. Usually we tell him not to bother with it so we can just crank it. When there's no drum mic's we've become pretty good at dialing in our sound as we always practice at stage volume (it's really fucking loud in our practice space lol). We usually get good feedback (no pun intended) about our live sound if it's a situation like this.

As soon as a sound guy starts micing up our amps (or even worse, wanting a DI for the bass) we kinda know that the sound in the room is going to be shit, and it shows when people come up to us afterwards saying "yeah you were really good but i couldn't hear the guitar/bass, only drums and vocals. There's really only been 1 or 2 exceptions to this thus far.

 

[TedEH]

As soon as a sound guy starts micing up our amps (or even worse, wanting a DI for the bass) we kinda know that the sound in the room is going to be shit

Do you mean because of the room itself, or because of the sound guy? I can agree insofar as a lot of sound guys are just..... not very good. Ideally, PA support should be just that: support. It's there to enhance and correct the sound of the band, make sure that you're audible throughout the whole room, etc. If PA support makes you sound worse, then something has gone wrong. And I'll agree that some rooms just sound bad, and there's only so much that can be done about it. I know a couple of venues that tend to sound really bad as soon as anyone who has never been in that room before gets behind the sound. There's so much that can go wrong to make a band sound less-than-intended, and I don't doubt that after a while you start being able to see the signs before it happens.

That being said, if instead you mean to say that your particular arrangement can only ever sound good without PA support, regardless of the room or sound guy, then I stick by my self-sabotage comment. At that point, you can never play in a larger venue since nobody at the back of the room would be able to hear anything. I mean, even the idea of relying on the on-stage guitar and bass cabs to project everything into the room means that your location in the room is going to hugely impact what you hear. Stand near the bassist, all you get is BWOOM BWOOM from their cab. Stand near the guitarist, all you get is practically white noise. Stand in the back of the room, and all you get is the drum mics. It's great if you can make it work in the places you currently play, but it sounds to me like you've limited yourself.

Even the loudest bands I've seen had PA support. The last "loud" show I can remember seeing I think was High on Fire - and I know we've seen (and opened for) other bands in a similar vein who would roll into these tiny venues with mountains of cabs, and as much as they made it work, the volume was insane and there's no way it would have worked out without the sound guy bringing his A game.

 

[GunpointMetal]

A lot of shows we play the drums are miced out and the sound guy asks us if we want our cabs miced up. Usually we tell him not to bother with it so we can just crank it. When there's no drum mic's we've become pretty good at dialing in our sound as we always practice at stage volume (it's really fucking loud in our practice space lol). We usually get good feedback (no pun intended) about our live sound if it's a situation like this.

As soon as a sound guy starts micing up our amps (or even worse, wanting a DI for the bass) we kinda know that the sound in the room is going to be shit, and it shows when people come up to us afterwards saying "yeah you were really good but i couldn't hear the guitar/bass, only drums and vocals. There's really only been 1 or 2 exceptions to this thus far.

If the sound guy is any good, he's not going to put any of the guitar/bass into the mains unless its necessary. If you're playing a larger room, you need that PA support unless you're rocking four 4x12s on each side of the stage or something. Just out of curiosity, how often do you get to get our in front of the stage to hear what you sound like in the room?

 

[Mprinsje]

Wall of text

It's usually the sound guy. When we play in venues where they actually mic up amps the sound system is usually pretty good, it's just a sound guy who works with mostly pop/rock and who doesn't really know how to dial this kind of music in. And we're not the kinda guys that want to anoy the sound guy so when he asks us to turn down we do it, but by then we kinda know already that the sound in the room is going to be sub-par. Sometimes there's good sound guys that listen to our style of music, and then we almost never get the question to turn our amps down lol, almost always it's "yeah it's fine, you do what you need to do and i'll handle it here". Those are the best kind of shows.

And it's not that our stuff can't be done without good PA support, it's just drums, 2 guitars, bass and vocals. Nothing special except we personally prefer playing loud. With a good sound guy we love to make good use of the PA, makes everything sound better. However, the kind of venues we mostly play (small ones, often without a stage) don't really have good sound guys most of the time (or any sound guy at all) so we prefer to do it our way if we do see that. We're not playing to thousands of people lol, we're playing to 25 people in a squatted building (not exclusively, it's kind of moving up now but that's what it used to be like)

Also, High On Fire is great live. Sleep was even better (and even louder). Loudest thing i've ever seen was probably Full of Hell playing a noise set with Merzbow, that was just insane. Or Boris playing their entire first album last year.

If the sound guy is any good, he's not going to put any of the guitar/bass into the mains unless its necessary. If you're playing a larger room, you need that PA support unless you're rocking four 4x12s on each side of the stage or something. Just out of curiosity, how often do you get to get our in front of the stage to hear what you sound like in the room?

Yeah if the sound guy is good he won't really do that, and those are the good shows. And we honestly very rarely play large enough rooms to really be needing that PA support for guitar and bass. How often we get in front of the stage depends, as we're not running wireless systems so we're kinda limited movement wise . In the smaller venues (with barely a stage to speak of) we can do that yeah. Although our vocalist isn't ever on the stage to begin with.